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View Full Version : Venezuela to buy KRASNOPOL - lazer guided shells



Garry
30 Mar 06,, 11:33
Today I read that Venezuela is going to buy Krasnopol shells for their 152mm and 155mm guns. Guns were already inspected and considered applicable for shooting Krasnopol shells.

Krasnopol shell in best solution to kill a target most economic way in a non-dusty/cloudy/rainy/foggy/etc bad vision environmkent.

The system needs a infantry assistance - they must mark the target with lazer beam for 5 seconds (depeding on distance of target and the gun). Marking of the target may be done from 7km (though clear air would be even greater concern for such a long distance).

http://www.shipunov.com/eng/kuw/kuw.htm
http://www.shipunov.com/eng/kuw/krasn.htm

The advantages are
- easy to use with existing artillery guns
- easy to learn for users
- VERY PRECISE
- cheap / can be massivelly used

Garry
18 Apr 06,, 10:45
went on and learned about US systems for precision artillery bombing. They do not depend on visibility but are much more expensive relying on GPS.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/05/the-next-generations-of-smart-shells/index.php

Read about Excalibur and was amazed with its of $40,000 per one Excalibur shell. This makes it really rediculous compared to Krasnopol! You shoot 50 rounds and have more than $2mln in cost....

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20060417.aspx

I don't have any ready price quotes but remember Shipunov stating that each Krasnopol round would cost 10 times more than a normal round but would save 20 rounds which would do job with lower accuracy..... (They also stated that logistics/delivery/handling of those 20 152mm rounds to battle field would make odds to favor Krasnopol even more). Hence Krasnopol would cost between $1,000-2,000 each.... but not $40,000!!! You may shoot Krasnopol in hundreds..... but this thing only few. And they have HIGHER accuracy.

Well US, army may need some cheaper designs like this one..... if it really end up being cheaper!!!

http://proceedings.ndia.org/5560/Wednesday/Session_III-A/Osborne.pdf

I read on this Ryeteon presentaiton that with accuracy of 50meters their product can cost less than $5,000
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004guns/fri/geswender.ppt

very interestign reading!

Garry
19 Apr 06,, 17:35
Today learned that French Army is considering acquisition of Krasnopol guidance system for their artillery shells.
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_005638.php

India and China has acquired them already. Though I was surprised to hear the price they paid.... I was told by Shipunov that Krasnopol guidance costs as ten shells.


During a 1999 war with Pakistan, high in the Himalayan mountains, Krasnopol proved very useful in taking out enemy bunkers, without causing avalanches or destroying the few pathways up the steep hills. The Indians paid about $40,000 for each Krasnopol shell (two thirds what the Copperhead was supposed to cost), and found it a good investment.

During tests in France the Bofors destroyed 5 targets with five 155mm shells equipped with Krasnopol guidance system (3 MOVING tanks, one APC and concrete wall) from 12km distance, with guiding personnel at 3km to the targets.

I know that many here do not respect FAS much but this is their evaluation of Krasnopol weapon
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/krasnopol.htm

a shorter description from
http://www.defense-update.com/products/k/krasnopol-kitolov.htm

Officer of Engineers
19 Apr 06,, 17:36
The majority of fire would still be the dumb shells and accuracy would be dependent on firing solutions rather than smart shells.

Garry
19 Apr 06,, 17:52
The majority of fire would still be the dumb shells and accuracy would be dependent on firing solutions rather than smart shells.

That is beyond my undestanding of artillery. But I see that artillery is cheaper delivery of smart explosives to the target than smart bombs!

Don't you think that proliferation of such smart shells would introduce great change in future tactics?

Officer of Engineers
19 Apr 06,, 18:32
That is beyond my undestanding of artillery. But I see that artillery is cheaper delivery of smart explosives to the target than smart bombs!

Effective limitations of range and openned to counter-battery operations.


Don't you think that proliferation of such smart shells would introduce great change in future tactics?

Already have. The shoot-and-scoot is the favoured tactic instead of waiting for a confirmation round before FFE.

Blademaster
19 Apr 06,, 21:08
What does Fire for effect exactly mean? Does it mean firing a dud round to get the range and accuracy right, and then deliver the real thing?

gunnut
19 Apr 06,, 22:15
Laser guided shells are cheaper than GPS shells, but you must have someone paint the target with laser. It also needs clear weather to work.

GPS shells can be done by aerial/satellite recon and in all weather conditions. No need to insert boots on the ground near the target. Altough I suppose one could use an UAV to paint the target.

Officer of Engineers
19 Apr 06,, 23:50
What does Fire for effect exactly mean? Does it mean firing a dud round to get the range and accuracy right, and then deliver the real thing?
It means start raining steel exactly where I want it to rain steel.

Jay
20 Apr 06,, 03:43
Laser guided shells are cheaper than GPS shells, but you must have someone paint the target with laser. It also needs clear weather to work.

You will defn have your birds in the air either to acheive air supremacy or to give cover to your army or to conduct bombing raids on your enemy. So I guess Laser guided shells would work most of the times for lesser cost, rite?

For Indian scenario, all they had to do was to fly with in our territory and paint the targets perched in the mountains plus by using birds you get better visibility, and accurate locations.

Garry
20 Apr 06,, 09:44
Laser guided shells are cheaper than GPS shells, but you must have someone paint the target with laser. It also needs clear weather to work.

GPS shells can be done by aerial/satellite recon and in all weather conditions. No need to insert boots on the ground near the target. Altough I suppose one could use an UAV to paint the target.

GPS is best to hit large stationary targets..... no weather limitations... dust or smoke would never stop it. But still somebody must fly/go few miles close to the target to give correct positioning data (Can satelite do this?). And finally GPS guidance is less precise..... from what I read most precise Excalibur gives error up to 20-30 meters, while laser guided shells only 1 meter.

Probably shooting lazer guided non-direct fire artillery shells is not PERFECT for moving targets like tank/truck/APC, but it may work in a situation when fire is given timelly after laser guidance operator calculates coverage zone. Shipunov calculated that tank at maximum speed on a road may exit such a zone withing 1 minute, while in offroad condition it will remain pre-calculated attack zone for more than 2 minutes...... enough to calculate/communicate targeting data and fire guided shell.

Cost difference. Lazer guidance is something very conventional and simple => lower cost and opportunities for massive application.

And final.... - GPS datalink may be easily copied and jammed.

Gun Grape
22 Apr 06,, 21:25
GPS is best to hit large stationary targets..... no weather limitations... dust or smoke would never stop it. But still somebody must fly/go few miles close to the target to give correct positioning data (Can satelite do this?). And finally GPS guidance is less precise..... from what I read most precise Excalibur gives error up to 20-30 meters, while laser guided shells only 1 meter.

Probably shooting lazer guided non-direct fire artillery shells is not PERFECT for moving targets like tank/truck/APC, but it may work in a situation when fire is given timelly after laser guidance operator calculates coverage zone. Shipunov calculated that tank at maximum speed on a road may exit such a zone withing 1 minute, while in offroad condition it will remain pre-calculated attack zone for more than 2 minutes...... enough to calculate/communicate targeting data and fire guided shell.

Cost difference. Lazer guidance is something very conventional and simple => lower cost and opportunities for massive application.

And final.... - GPS datalink may be easily copied and jammed.


Garry, Don't believe all the press reports :biggrin:

GPS is not easily jammed. And by now all US GPS recievers have anti spoofing software.

Instead of comparing Krasnopol with Excaliber you need to google Copperhead.
We have been doing it since the 80s also. We are phasing Copperhead because, even though you cannot beat it when everything works, It rarely works correctly :)

The easiest way to beat them is the way the Soviets practiced, Laser Warning Detectors that cue smoke grenades.

gunnut
22 Apr 06,, 21:51
The easiest way to beat them is the way the Soviets practiced, Laser Warning Detectors that cue smoke grenades.

Ooooh, that sounds like a very simple yet effective counter to anything guided by laser.

True, GPS shells can't hit a moving target, but artilery isn't normally used to hit small moving targets to begin with. Also one would first need to confirm the target's presence before launching a barrage.

Each has its own uses. Best to have them both. :biggrin:

Garry
23 Apr 06,, 20:46
Garry, Don't believe all the press reports :biggrin:

GPS is not easily jammed. And by now all US GPS recievers have anti spoofing software.

Instead of comparing Krasnopol with Excaliber you need to google Copperhead.
We have been doing it since the 80s also. We are phasing Copperhead because, even though you cannot beat it when everything works, It rarely works correctly :)

The easiest way to beat them is the way the Soviets practiced, Laser Warning Detectors that cue smoke grenades.

I agree, unfortunaelly the smoke/dust/cloud woudl beat anything lazer guided.

I read about Cooperhead, it was itneresting to hear from the author that Krasnopol had experienced problems. If you hear more about them drop me a link!
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20020602.aspx

I was told that GPS signal is constant and therefore can be copied by alternative emmitter. Hence GPS guided bombs were deviated from the targets. Probably it is not that easy to do but sound quite feasible.

Garry
23 Apr 06,, 20:48
Ooooh, that sounds like a very simple yet effective counter to anything guided by laser.

True, GPS shells can't hit a moving target, but artilery isn't normally used to hit small moving targets to begin with. Also one would first need to confirm the target's presence before launching a barrage.

Each has its own uses. Best to have them both. :biggrin:

Hei, I read that GPS guided ammunition (Excalibur) has an error of up to 20 meters. If so would these shells still be a precision weapon?

Garry
22 Jun 06,, 14:05
Seems I was wrong in my estimation of the price per shell in Krasnopol. France is buying 500 shells for 27mln euro => around 54k euro per one shell.

French reported that during firing they had experienced EXRAORDINARY precision of Krasnopol - during one firing test French gunners managed to destroy 3 tanks with 3 shells firing from closed position on the distance of more more than 5km. The last firing test was one on a MOVING tank. They also reported destroying a bunker with a single shot of a 155mm shell.

There is rumor (unreliable information) that French also tested Cooperhead as an alternative but were not satisfied with precision and detonator malfunction.

Moroz
22 Jun 06,, 19:29
Seems I was wrong in my estimation of the price per shell in Krasnopol. France is buying 500 shells for 27mln euro => around 54k euro per one shell.I suppose you are right in both posts (#2 and #16)
Shipunov said about the Krasnopols cost. In the Frances deal youve calculated the price. There are a lot of things in the world have price ten ore tens time higher then its cost. For example, printers ink cartridges, Viagra, Brioni suits, drugs etc. If world markets PRICE for smart round is 60000USD, there are no reasons to do knockdown proposition

Garry
26 Jun 06,, 07:06
I suppose you are right in both posts (#2 and #16)
Shipunov said about the Krasnopols cost. In the Frances deal youve calculated the price. There are a lot of things in the world have price ten ore tens time higher then its cost. For example, printers ink cartridges, Viagra, Brioni suits, drugs etc. If world markets PRICE for smart round is 60000USD, there are no reasons to do knockdown proposition

Privet Moroz,

I made my estimation of cost from Shipunov's statement that Kranopol shell is 10 times more expensive than normal shell.... If this still holds Shipunov MUST HAVE MADE REALLY GOOD PROFIT on those 500 shells to France!

Moroz
26 Jun 06,, 17:49
Привет Garry (Игорь?) Кстати, я этот сайт нашел по твоим отличным постам про БМПТ.

I made my estimation of cost from Shipunov's statement that Kranopol shell is 10 times more expensive than normal shell.... If this still holds Shipunov MUST HAVE MADE REALLY GOOD PROFIT on those 500 shells to France!
I hope this money would be invested in RnD.

PS I was impressed that price tag of US's Standard missile-2 is $400 000 only.

Андрей.

Dreadnought
26 Jun 06,, 17:54
They still wont save Chavez's' ass if the U.S. decides enough is enough. ;)

2DREZQ
26 Jun 06,, 21:00
GPS is not easily jammed. And by now all US GPS recievers have anti spoofing software.


Besides that, turning on a GPS jammer is like painting a big neon: DROP BOMB HERE sign on your roof.

Garry
27 Jun 06,, 07:21
Besides that, turning on a GPS jammer is like painting a big neon: DROP BOMB HERE sign on your roof.

Exactly..... that is how missiles are diverted from actual target. But why to put jammer on your roof? Isn't it smart to put it aside and operate it distantly?

or for example pick most hated neighbor (who's dog regularly visits your lawn) and put jammer on his rouf.... :)

Garry
27 Jun 06,, 07:27
They still wont save Chavez's' ass if the U.S. decides enough is enough. ;)

Chavez would be happy if U.S. puts their attention on his theatre. This would just add him popularity and make him AN IMPORTANT POLITICIAN.

For U.S. Krasnopol would not be a problem. US will not INVADE Venezuella. Too risky to get stuck for years at pay high political cost. They would finance a BLOODY coup as they always do in such cases. Lets not forget that MOST of Venezuella Army is highly pro-american. I understood this even with those few days I spent there few years back. Their Army would love to make a coup.....

Dreadnought
27 Jun 06,, 13:56
Chavez would be happy if U.S. puts their attention on his theatre. This would just add him popularity and make him AN IMPORTANT POLITICIAN.

For U.S. Krasnopol would not be a problem. US will not INVADE Venezuella. Too risky to get stuck for years at pay high political cost. They would finance a BLOODY coup as they always do in such cases. Lets not forget that MOST of Venezuella Army is highly pro-american. I understood this even with those few days I spent there few years back. Their Army would love to make a coup.....

That may be true but what happens when U.S. troops appear walking on his coastal areas and U.S. AF jets control his skies then how popular would Mr. Chavez's theatre be? :rolleyes:

For U.S. Krasnopol would not be a problem. US will not INVADE Venezuella. Too risky to get stuck for years at pay high political cost. They would finance a BLOODY coup as they always do in such cases. Lets not forget that MOST of Venezuella Army is highly pro-american. I understood this even with those few days I spent there few years back. Their Army would love to make a coup.....

The U.S. wouldnt waste their time invading Venezuella when we could easily take it without an invasion force that is if we really wanted too.

HistoricalDavid
27 Jun 06,, 15:25
The U.S. wouldnt waste their time invading Venezuella when we could easily take it without an invasion force that is if we really wanted too.

They could?

Ground troops are quite important for 'taking' something in the literal sense.

In the slang sense of 'take' them on, then perhaps.

Garry
27 Jun 06,, 17:04
That may be true but what happens when U.S. troops appear walking on his coastal areas and U.S. AF jets control his skies then how popular would Mr. Chavez's theatre be? :rolleyes:


The U.S. wouldnt waste their time invading Venezuella when we could easily take it without an invasion force that is if we really wanted too.

Yes but Venezuella may blow up their oil wells and the cost to US would me much higher than if Iran stops producing today. Invade, means not only get in but occupy and control..... not sure that this would be really possible. Here whatever Krasnopol vs. Cooperhead discussions would be just irrelevant..... US would not be able to control Venezuella if it occupies it..... it would just make itself hated even more and lose all of its friends in Latin America....

That is why it would go on financing a coup where a local people would do what US wants. It brings same results but a less cost and less risk.

However if this shoots back in long run. Iran is very good expample what happens when you make a coup.... in a decade the country get to hate you and you have to leave. USA financed the coup => ten years later Iranians supported Khomeini agaist USA and kicked Shakh out of the country. Afghanistan is good example as well. Soviet Union had everything to control this territory millitarilly after the coup, but nothing to control the people of Afghanistan...

Tronic
27 Jun 06,, 18:37
Iranians will kick out Khomeini themselves... Sooner or later, a revolution in Iran is coming, and the Islamic mullahs will be toppled... just google for all the youth movements going on in Iran right now...

oh and Garry, you're dead wrong.. the Iranians don't hate America, most of them actually liked the good old days when the Shah was around... atleast they had more freedoms, the Islamic government brought nothing but war and isolation from the world... Iranians are progressive people and they know they cannot progress under the Islamic government... so sooner or later, the Iranian theocracy will fall... and plus, the Iranian people are not willing to accept an Economic isolation just for building the bomb.. The Iranians would rather have their economic power grow then produce a nuclear bomb... there will be no stopping the Iranian youth from revolution once the right time has come...

lwarmonger
28 Jun 06,, 03:58
The Iranians would rather have their economic power grow then produce a nuclear bomb... there will be no stopping the Iranian youth from revolution once the right time has come...

I doubt it. That is pretty much like looking at the college campuses in this country and saying that "the United States is going to be run by the Green Party thirty years down the road." Nobody talks more about changing the world and actually manages less of a change than college students and youth movements.

The Mullah's have a far greater bast of support than the Shah ever dreamt of. I seriously doubt that the Pasdaran Guards (largely drawn from the countryside) would have qualms about suppressing anti-Islamist demonstrations.

Garry
28 Jun 06,, 07:34
Iranians will kick out Khomeini themselves... Sooner or later, a revolution in Iran is coming, and the Islamic mullahs will be toppled... just google for all the youth movements going on in Iran right now...

oh and Garry, you're dead wrong.. the Iranians don't hate America, most of them actually liked the good old days when the Shah was around... atleast they had more freedoms, the Islamic government brought nothing but war and isolation from the world... Iranians are progressive people and they know they cannot progress under the Islamic government... so sooner or later, the Iranian theocracy will fall... and plus, the Iranian people are not willing to accept an Economic isolation just for building the bomb.. The Iranians would rather have their economic power grow then produce a nuclear bomb... there will be no stopping the Iranian youth from revolution once the right time has come...

May be I am wrong. I just had little time to look around there. My impression was that two cities were quite pro-western but most of the province is still in early 20th century. People are very nice in general. However they hate USA and are quite brainwashed. Very much.

Hei Tronic, how did you learn so much about Iran? Can you share?

Tronic
28 Jun 06,, 08:39
May be I am wrong. I just had little time to look around there. My impression was that two cities were quite pro-western but most of the province is still in early 20th century. People are very nice in general. However they hate USA and are quite brainwashed. Very much.

Well, generally almost the entire Islamic world is anti-American, especially the Arabs (although most governments in these nations are pro-American governments, the people are definitely anti-American), then we have the Afghanis which don't know much about the world to be anti-anything; these are the people with almost no voice and very high rates of illeteracy and poverty. Thats why the Afghani's tend to be whatever you tell them to be... and that is probably also why the Afghanis have been ruled by seveal warlords, Taliban and foreign intelligence agencies for such a long time... then you have the Pakistani's, who are anti-American simply because the Arabs are anti-American and the Pakistanis tend to admire the Arabs... this is also another case of a pro-American government ruling majority of anti-American people... and then you have the Iranians; the Persians who are quite proud of their heritage and want to be seen distinct from the rest of the Arabs... these are the ambitious people who have been ruled by a Theocractical system and now we keep hearing more about the revolution minded youth in Iran. This is the new generation of Iran which crave change and want to live more liberal lives, not controlled by some crazy mullahs...

here's just an insight to the minds of the Iranian youth

...."I started selling sex at 11," 19-year-old Leilah says. She looks 30.

"There are 10 and 11-year-olds on the street as well. I had to do it because my stepmother turned me out of my home and my father dumped me here.

"But not all of us do it in order to survive. Many girls run away from home because they can't bear the lack of freedom. They prefer to become prostitutes than face the restrictions

A reporter working for a woman's magazine said she believes there are more than one million women who sell their bodies in Tehran, which has a population of 10 million.

"I would say one in three women do it," she says.

"Some do it out of despair, runaway teenagers do it to survive and some middle-class girls do it just to put two fingers up at the regime - to take off their black chadors and taste freedom."
She asks to be kept anonymous. If a foreign journalist can be deported for telling unsavoury truths, a local reporter can be imprisoned.

Rebellious teenagers

In the wealthier suburbs in northern Iran, the girls have their headscarves pushed as far back off their faces as possible.

Nazenin reveals slashes of bright eye shadow to match her powder blue scarf.

How does she get away with make-up which would have earned her a flogging only a couple of years ago?

"I think the mullahs are giving us more leeway these days so that they can get up with their own business," she says.


"They want us to be distracted by make-up and drugs. They allow tonnes of drugs to enter the country and create millions of addicts."

Two 16-year-old boys give the girls knowing looks as they pass. They both have long hair and trainers. It is easier for the male to dress the part of the rebellious teenager than for a girl in Iran.

"We get drugs and alcohol whenever we can," says Arash. "Sure, I've been flogged for taking drugs and I've been flogged for listening to a personal walkman while walking down the street. We hate the lack of personal freedom in this country."

'No joy'

When Ayatollah Khomeini returned to Iran to lead the revolution 23 years ago, he was honest enough to warn the people of the new Islamic Republic that "Islam offers no joy".

It is the joylessness of life which young people complain about. Fatima stopped to talk to me as I walked past the "Death to Israel" rally in Tehran, an annual ritual where hundreds of people are bussed into the city to shout obscenities against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and US President George W Bush.

She was embarrassed. "Most of us don't think like that, at least the educated ones who have read about how Iran was before the revolution," the pretty 23-year-old says later, surrounded by screaming women draped in shroud-like black chadors.

"We hate the way we have to behave and dress. The Koran does not say we have to cover up like this.

"The mullahs force us to wear veils not to support Islam but to control us and to further their own political interests. Young people in Iran are unhappy and women especially are desperate."

Another girl in her 20s told me about the Thursday night parties - with music and alcohol - she holds at her home. But they do not always get away with it....


read the whole article here... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2563413.stm

heres more.... Youth in Rebellion (javascript:vlaunch('clip=/media/2005/01/25/video669350.rm&sec=202)

and more...

Iranian revolution will come from the people

By Bridget Johnson, Columnist
Daily News.com

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - John F. Kennedy once said, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

The former president could have been talking about Iran, circa now.

After more than two decades of repressive mullahs and Shariah, today's young Iranians -- more than two-thirds of the population is under 30 -- have had their appetites for freedom whetted by a technological age in which the West can't be shut out. Even the regime's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, is now a blogger -- as other bloggers in the country are being thrown in jail.

One of the opposition voices speaking to Iranians -- who, according to reports phoned and e-mailed from inside the country, have increasingly been taking to the streets in protest against the Islamic regime -- is a radio station nestled in Beverly Hills. Broadcasting from "Tehrangeles" across the United States, to Tehran and beyond, KRSI-Radio Sedaye Iran uses satellites and -- for two hours a day -- shortwave radios to send out the stories untouched by Iranian censors.

In addition to getting Farsi news broadcasts from Israel, millions of listeners tune in 24 hours a day for shows, such as "Good Morning Iran," on which hosts field calls from within the country about regime atrocities, civil disobedience and government crackdowns that may or may not make the news wires.

Like this month's Festival of Fire, where thousands celebrated the Iranian new year in the streets -- and endured beatings and tear gas -- despite the government decrying the holiday as pagan. Or the protests accompanying last week's World Cup qualifying soccer match between Iran and Japan, where elation from victory on the field turned into fresh demonstrations in the streets lambasting the mullahs. Protesters have vowed to come out in force again tonight after the Iran-North Korea soccer match.

And, as Hashemi Rafsanjani once again eyes the presidency, Iranians are vowing to stay away from the June polls, says Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi, a New York-based writer and Iranian activist. Her father, film historian Siamak Pourzand, is a political prisoner in Iran.

As I chatted last week with KRSI President Alireza Morovati in his office, while a Farsi broadcast played in the background, he made the aims of the uprising clear: a referendum, a new constitution, democratically elected leaders (without candidate slates edited by clerics) and a secular state free of Islamic law.

While driving toward democracy, Zand-Bonazzi told me, the Iranian people must be clear on their goal to get rid of the mullahs and not push one ideology over another. "It has to be ... a much more pointed attack on the Islamic republic," she said. And the referendum must be internationally monitored.

Morovati also noted that, unlike many Europeans nowadays, Iranians tend to love Americans and Western culture, despite clerics' branding of the U.S. as the Great Satan. He said the biggest thing for Iranians to know right now is that Bush is behind them. It would be nice if the Europeans got on board as well, noted Zand-Bonazzi.

Far from being the slums of Baghdad or Kabul, Tehran is a cosmopolitan city with an educated work force, which will make the difference after the mullahs fall, Morovati said.

"Iranians have every potential to match the productivity of the Japanese and the Indians," Zand-Bonazzi said.

Both said they expect Iranians who have done so well here to invest in the liberated country, helping the economy take off.

But who's going to unite scores of demonstrators and dissenters in revolution against the mullahs? Poland had Lech Walesa; the Czechs had Vaclav Havel. But not in Iran, opines Zand-Bonazzi, noting that a figurehead would be too hegemonic in that culture, and that any leader would be arrested and executed by the regime. There are already many opposition leaders in prison, she said.

"The leaders of this revolution have to be the populace," and come from within Iran, she said.

It may not be a velvet revolution, but it won't have the same result as the 1979 revolution. Instead of ushering in decades of oppression, the next turn -- though most likely bloody -- will be for the better.

And Iranians who are now Americans hope America -- and the world -- will stand behind their compatriots.
http://www.iranpressnews.com/english/source/004135.html

Garry
28 Jun 06,, 10:20
read the whole article here... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2563413.stm

heres more.... Youth in Rebellion (javascript:vlaunch('clip=/media/2005/01/25/video669350.rm&sec=202)

and more...

http://www.iranpressnews.com/english/source/004135.html

Hi Tronic, it is interesting. I actually missed all that. I noticed that education level is higher in Tehran and that people are more $ oriented than in provice.

I would be interested to go to Iran again. This time I would try to spend more time in Tekhran, rather than last time when I went to historic sites which are in provices.

U guess it would be great gap between those pro-western and provicial people.... interesting!

canoe
28 Jun 06,, 12:36
And final.... - GPS datalink may be easily copied and jammed.

The U.S has developed anti-jamming systems for their weapons that neutralize jamming signals. They also have weapons that home in on jamming signals.

Thus far every jamming system tried has failed against the current generation of GPS weapons.

http://www.space.com/spacenews/archive03/bombsarch_061203.html

canoe
28 Jun 06,, 12:45
I'd imagine until the next generation of GPS sats are in orbit (2010-2012) period the best way to surpress jamming signals is probably a directional receiver antenna that will only accept GPS signals from a specific direction based on the orientation of the weapon. That will eleminate most of the ground based jammers, high altitude jammers would still be effective against this design but theres usually not as many of those.

Some added software code to detect a particular signal that is way outta wack and ignore it would help too but not as much.

To put it bluntly there is no future in GPS jamming systems, the next generation of GPS sats will make it so difficult it will near impossible.

Garry
28 Jun 06,, 14:06
I'd imagine until the next generation of GPS sats are in orbit (2010-2012) period the best way to surpress jamming signals is probably a directional receiver antenna that will only accept GPS signals from a specific direction based on the orientation of the weapon. That will eleminate most of the ground based jammers, high altitude jammers would still be effective against this design but theres usually not as many of those.

Some added software code to detect a particular signal that is way outta wack and ignore it would help too but not as much.

To put it bluntly there is no future in GPS jamming systems, the next generation of GPS sats will make it so difficult it will near impossible.

Hi Canoe, I recently heard that small meterology observation ballon cost quite cheap, same as jammers. I did not hear that those were actually used by this first what would come into my mind when I think how to resolve this problem. I don't know how it is being resolved in real life.

Regarding unjammable. I can not understand how it can be UNJAMMABLE if signal is CONSTANT. You can not encrypte it effectivelly..... and make it changing codes. This would require to adjust hell of a lot of GPS signal users... So in MUST BE CONSTANT. Then it can be ABSOLUTELLY COPIED using basic oscillograph so that its frequence, amplitude signal itself MATCH ..... and then GPS device would be diverted.

I understand that this is completelly different in case of a missile..... the signal can be enctrypted using a digital technologies with a variating code which is pre-programmed.

What do you think?

Officer of Engineers
28 Jun 06,, 14:19
And now, we're back to map and compass!

Moroz
28 Jun 06,, 14:40
...a directional receiver antenna that will only accept GPS signals from a specific direction based on the orientation of the weapon. That will eleminate most of the ground based jammers, high altitude jammers would still be effective against this design but theres usually not as many of those...And how will US dispose a present weapon going to become old? New war for oil? :rolleyes:

canoe
28 Jun 06,, 15:04
Hi Canoe, I recently heard that small meterology observation ballon cost quite cheap, same as jammers. I did not hear that those were actually used by this first what would come into my mind when I think how to resolve this problem. I don't know how it is being resolved in real life.

Regarding unjammable. I can not understand how it can be UNJAMMABLE if signal is CONSTANT. You can not encrypte it effectivelly..... and make it changing codes. This would require to adjust hell of a lot of GPS signal users... So in MUST BE CONSTANT. Then it can be ABSOLUTELLY COPIED using basic oscillograph so that its frequence, amplitude signal itself MATCH ..... and then GPS device would be diverted.

I understand that this is completelly different in case of a missile..... the signal can be enctrypted using a digital technologies with a variating code which is pre-programmed.

What do you think?

The new satellites will retain the older legacy signals but will also add new ones from what I've read.

In terms of just rebroadcasting the origional signal, its possible that could be dealt with by having the satellites encoded signal also contain a timestamped, position and ID verification code for closest three nearby GPS satellites. Which tells the receiver how the signals should be orientated when it receives them.

So lets say you decode the signals from the 3 closest satellites and 2 out of the three agree with each other and are telling you that the third signal should be something other then what your getting you can ignore it or identify the correct signal using information from the other two. The more satellite signals your able to get the more difficult it gets to spoof them.

In this case because their signals are all interdependant for verification the only way to spoof them is to spoof the entire portion of the satellite network your area can receive. Which isen't easy because the signals contain information about how the network should be orientated to the receiver.

Its not possible to modify the information contained in the signal without the encryption key so all you'd be able to do is a delay rebroadcast. Which can now be identified by comparing your spoofed signal to the others.

I'm sure theres other ways being developed by people far more imaginative then myself though.

Garry
29 Jun 06,, 10:40
The new satellites will retain the older legacy signals but will also add new ones from what I've read.

In terms of just rebroadcasting the origional signal, its possible that could be dealt with by having the satellites encoded signal also contain a timestamped, position and ID verification code for closest three nearby GPS satellites. Which tells the receiver how the signals should be orientated when it receives them.

So lets say you decode the signals from the 3 closest satellites and 2 out of the three agree with each other and are telling you that the third signal should be something other then what your getting you can ignore it or identify the correct signal using information from the other two. The more satellite signals your able to get the more difficult it gets to spoof them.

In this case because their signals are all interdependant for verification the only way to spoof them is to spoof the entire portion of the satellite network your area can receive. Which isen't easy because the signals contain information about how the network should be orientated to the receiver.

Its not possible to modify the information contained in the signal without the encryption key so all you'd be able to do is a delay rebroadcast. Which can now be identified by comparing your spoofed signal to the others.

I'm sure theres other ways being developed by people far more imaginative then myself though.

Hi Canoe, thank you for explaining. Some things are still not clear to me.

1) from what I know satelite signals are not interdependant. As far as I understand each satelite beeps a CONSTANT AND INDIVIDUAL signal with its ID and location. You need to catch signal from 3 for PRESICE location. And it could be ANY 3 from all available to you at that part of the globe. GPS satelites do not EXCHANGE signals.

2) There are two types of signal encryption - constant code and VARIABLE code sequence. Constant code is quite possible to decryct, VARIABLE code sequience means that encrypting code is changing regulargly (every second for example!) according to a PRE-PROGRAMMED sequence know only to ussers. It is possible to decrypt signal encrypted with sequence for a small period, but it makes no point as in the next period another code is used. If this period is short enough the sequential code is considered IMPOSSIBLE to effectivelly decrypt unless you have a CD with pre-programmed changing keys.

If a changing sequence codes are used in GPS then system would have VERY few users. Because it is not possible - its encryption is CONSTANT - same as signal.

3) The GPS guidance needs 3 signals from 3 satelites. If it gets 4 than it just get more precise as it uses all 4 to re-adjust itself. You ALWAYS know what satelites are available around. Maximum amount of them available SIMULTANEOUSLY is 7.... so it is not really problem to copy all of them.

Can you correct me if I got anything wrong here?

canoe
30 Jun 06,, 07:39
Hi Canoe, thank you for explaining. Some things are still not clear to me.

1) from what I know satelite signals are not interdependant. As far as I understand each satelite beeps a CONSTANT AND INDIVIDUAL signal with its ID and location. You need to catch signal from 3 for PRESICE location. And it could be ANY 3 from all available to you at that part of the globe. GPS satelites do not EXCHANGE signals.

2) There are two types of signal encryption - constant code and VARIABLE code sequence. Constant code is quite possible to decryct, VARIABLE code sequience means that encrypting code is changing regulargly (every second for example!) according to a PRE-PROGRAMMED sequence know only to ussers. It is possible to decrypt signal encrypted with sequence for a small period, but it makes no point as in the next period another code is used. If this period is short enough the sequential code is considered IMPOSSIBLE to effectivelly decrypt unless you have a CD with pre-programmed changing keys.

If a changing sequence codes are used in GPS then system would have VERY few users. Because it is not possible - its encryption is CONSTANT - same as signal.

3) The GPS guidance needs 3 signals from 3 satelites. If it gets 4 than it just get more precise as it uses all 4 to re-adjust itself. You ALWAYS know what satelites are available around. Maximum amount of them available SIMULTANEOUSLY is 7.... so it is not really problem to copy all of them.

Can you correct me if I got anything wrong here?

Currently you are correct, however the U.S is planning to replace the network with newer satellites which will allow them to add more military channels (GPS3).

In terms of encyption I'd have to assume they'd make some of the military encryption channels reprogrammable, probably for stuff like aircraft and ships. So they can just software update in the event someone cracks it.

Keep in mind there not changing the current GPS signals those will be retained they'll just be adding more for military use.

Gun Grape
01 Jul 06,, 02:40
Hi Canoe, I recently heard that small meterology observation ballon cost quite cheap, same as jammers. I did not hear that those were actually used by this first what would come into my mind when I think how to resolve this problem. I don't know how it is being resolved in real life.

Regarding unjammable. I can not understand how it can be UNJAMMABLE if signal is CONSTANT. You can not encrypte it effectivelly..... and make it changing codes. This would require to adjust hell of a lot of GPS signal users... So in MUST BE CONSTANT. Then it can be ABSOLUTELLY COPIED using basic oscillograph so that its frequence, amplitude signal itself MATCH ..... and then GPS device would be diverted.

I understand that this is completelly different in case of a missile..... the signal can be enctrypted using a digital technologies with a variating code which is pre-programmed.

What do you think?


Different signals for different uses. Can be tuned to be more accurate (Mil) or just "Good Enough that you don't get lost" (civilian).

Mil recievers are designed to pick up jamming and ignore it. Modern weapons, like JDAM will revert to INS if it gets jammed or spoofed. Its also not hard to find the transmitter. Just look for the Sat signal coming from the ground.

Where Jamming or spoofing would do the most damage is at the company level. You can make both a jammer or spoof device from Radio Shack parts that will fit in a soda can/flashlight case. Low enough output that the signal may only carry 50 meters.

Garry
03 Jul 06,, 07:19
Different signals for different uses. Can be tuned to be more accurate (Mil) or just "Good Enough that you don't get lost" (civilian).

Mil recievers are designed to pick up jamming and ignore it. Modern weapons, like JDAM will revert to INS if it gets jammed or spoofed. Its also not hard to find the transmitter. Just look for the Sat signal coming from the ground.

Where Jamming or spoofing would do the most damage is at the company level. You can make both a jammer or spoof device from Radio Shack parts that will fit in a soda can/flashlight case. Low enough output that the signal may only carry 50 meters.

Hi Gun Grape, how would you comment the following line of argument ?

1) GPS signal is CONSTANT but divides to mill and civill (and weak)
2) Constant signal can be ABSOLUTELLY copied
3) Small meterology ballon costs almost nothing
4) Emitters of FALSE but ABSOLUTELLY copied signal are VERY cheap.
5) Even mil receiver would have problem if many SAME signlas come in from top

I guess that is why GPS is an additional guidance not MAJOR!

What do you think?

Garry
21 Mar 07,, 11:32
This pretty much resembles Krasnopol and Kitolov systems...... probably more accurate (Soviet systems give accuracy of 1m, while this one gives few sm)
IZHMASH JSC official site (http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/kitolov.shtml)
. " - 2" (http://www.kbptula.ru/rus/kuwr/kit.htm)
____________________________________

ATK Precision Guided Mortar Munition Scores Direct Hit In Guided Flight Test (http://www.spacewar.com/reports/ATK_Precision_Guided_Mortar_Munition_Scores_Direct _Hit_In_Guided_Flight_Test_999.html)

ATK Precision Guided Mortar Munition Scores Direct Hit In Guided Flight Test

An ATK Precision Guided Mortar Munition (PGMM).
by Staff Writers
Minneapolis MN (SPX) Mar 20, 2007
Alliant Techsystems has successfully demonstrated the robust design, mission effectiveness, and accuracy of its Precision Guided Mortar Munition (PGMM). In a guided flight test at the Yuma Proving Grounds, Yuma, Arizona, ATK scored a hit after firing PGMM from a standard 120mm mortar. The round flew approximately 2.5 miles to target and maneuvered to a precision strike, using embedded thrusters located in the body of the projectile.
"With the success of this guided flight test, ATK has ushered in the era of affordable, precision munitions for troops on the ground," said Jack Cronin, President, ATK Mission Systems Group. "PGMM isn't a promise in a presentation - it is an artfully designed precision projectile that is now a reality."

In December 2004, ATK received an initial $80 million for a system design and development (SDD) contract to give the U.S. Army an unmatched precision advantage in 120mm mortars. Since commencing work under the SDD contract, ATK has achieved a number of key program milestones, including the preliminary design review, demonstrated guided flight to the target, and the critical design review, which is currently underway. ATK is confident that with continued funding through the SDD phase of the program, it will meet all cost and schedule requirements.

"PGMM meets an existing and critical need for our nation's soldiers," continued Cronin. "It is the ideal round for urban combat because it eliminates collateral damage, is on target within seconds, and provides the stand-off range our troops need."

JCT
21 Mar 07,, 16:57
Hi Gun Grape, how would you comment the following line of argument ?

1) GPS signal is CONSTANT but divides to mill and civill (and weak)
2) Constant signal can be ABSOLUTELLY copied
3) Small meterology ballon costs almost nothing
4) Emitters of FALSE but ABSOLUTELLY copied signal are VERY cheap.
5) Even mil receiver would have problem if many SAME signlas come in from top

I guess that is why GPS is an additional guidance not MAJOR!

What do you think?

Garry,
Check out the new DOD GPS system, DAGR (http://gps.losangeles.af.mil/user/products/dagr/). It has built-in anti-spoofing & anti-jamming capabilities. All DoD systems are converting over to it.

1. Each satellite has to transmit its own signal so that the receiver can plot them and then determine its own location. So its not a constant signal and there are many different ones from each satellite. In addition, the satellites regularily transmit their orbit schedules. Watch a GPS that has not been used for some time and it takes it ~5 minutes to download the new schedule so it can 'find' the overhead satellites.
2. Sure.
3. Small Met balloons are cheap, however the logistics of using them is a pain. Helium canisters are heavy and you only get 2-3 balloons per canister. The balloons rise quickly and are affected by winds. This is important b/c they have a very small lift capability and this limits the size, strength, and battery power of your jammer. Yes, you could tie a few together, but even one balloon is very large, a right pain to deal with, and is pretty fragile.
4. Yes, but if it's too dumb the new DAGR GPS devices will disregard the signal.
5. Yep, but such a strong jammer is easily found & destroyed. You would not be able to leave it on very long and timing a single GPS guided bomb or shell would be tough.

highsea
22 Mar 07,, 00:11
Garry, here's a little trivia for you- the Russian-made GPS jamming towers in Iraq during OIF were taken out by GPS guided bombs. :biggrin:

Garry
28 Mar 07,, 16:45
Garry, here's a little trivia for you- the Russian-made GPS jamming towers in Iraq during OIF were taken out by GPS guided bombs. :biggrin:

Hi Highsea, I heard this were quite a low power devices rather than a special towers... read this in Read Zvezda :) they also stated that this devices are operated distantly and that they have served well during first two raides.... so cost analysis is still pretty positive - Iraqi just did not have enough of them

GGTharos
28 Mar 07,, 22:32
It is possible to detect that GPS is being jammed - in that instance, you can cut the GPS out and go on on INS. Not as accurate, but you're not really doing yourself a whole lot of good by jamming the weapon ...

Injecteer
12 Apr 07,, 16:28
The easiest way to detect if the GPS signals are being jammed is to locate the 3 closest sats in the sky, point the narrow-beamed antennas at them, and compare the signals with those from a standard GPS receiver.
This can be done on the ground, but I have serious doubts, that it can be performed on a projectile/missile when airborn.

Garry
12 Apr 07,, 17:19
The easiest way to detect if the GPS signals are being jammed is to locate the 3 closest sats in the sky, point the narrow-beamed antennas at them, and compare the signals with those from a standard GPS receiver.
This can be done on the ground, but I have serious doubts, that it can be performed on a projectile/missile when airborn.

Sure, jammers are easy to spot and to destroy. But their cost is rather low...

On the other side their effectiveness is also limited - they deviate cruise missiles around 300-500 metes and bombs around 100-150 meters from the target. The problem is that GPS guided weapons are not correcting themselves constantly.... they do it more while approaching the target => hence deviation rarelly exceed 500m.

Again source is article in Zvezda newspaper (sometimes they give bull crap)

Dreadnought
12 Apr 07,, 17:32
They could?

Ground troops are quite important for 'taking' something in the literal sense.

In the slang sense of 'take' them on, then perhaps.

Its all according to just how "politically correct" the current President wants to be. Actually,if in fact he wanted to it would be over quite fast without putting boots on the ground in the beginning. Air power and sea power would see to it that he's defensless. And with the latest hardware in hand it would literally come to a choice of life or death for his military. Follow that up with amphib landings and its pretty much over with exception to some probable sporatic fighting but it the large sense over.; Make no mistake Hugo can bark all he wants but the bite will be on his ass if we come calling and he knows it all to well.;)