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Venezuela to buy KRASNOPOL - lazer guided shells

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  • Venezuela to buy KRASNOPOL - lazer guided shells

    Today I read that Venezuela is going to buy Krasnopol shells for their 152mm and 155mm guns. Guns were already inspected and considered applicable for shooting Krasnopol shells.

    Krasnopol shell in best solution to kill a target most economic way in a non-dusty/cloudy/rainy/foggy/etc bad vision environmkent.

    The system needs a infantry assistance - they must mark the target with lazer beam for 5 seconds (depeding on distance of target and the gun). Marking of the target may be done from 7km (though clear air would be even greater concern for such a long distance).

    http://www.shipunov.com/eng/kuw/kuw.htm
    http://www.shipunov.com/eng/kuw/krasn.htm

    The advantages are
    - easy to use with existing artillery guns
    - easy to learn for users
    - VERY PRECISE
    - cheap / can be massivelly used

  • #2
    went on and learned about US systems for precision artillery bombing. They do not depend on visibility but are much more expensive relying on GPS.

    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ells/index.php

    Read about Excalibur and was amazed with its of $40,000 per one Excalibur shell. This makes it really rediculous compared to Krasnopol! You shoot 50 rounds and have more than $2mln in cost....

    http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hta.../20060417.aspx

    I don't have any ready price quotes but remember Shipunov stating that each Krasnopol round would cost 10 times more than a normal round but would save 20 rounds which would do job with lower accuracy..... (They also stated that logistics/delivery/handling of those 20 152mm rounds to battle field would make odds to favor Krasnopol even more). Hence Krasnopol would cost between $1,000-2,000 each.... but not $40,000!!! You may shoot Krasnopol in hundreds..... but this thing only few. And they have HIGHER accuracy.

    Well US, army may need some cheaper designs like this one..... if it really end up being cheaper!!!

    http://proceedings.ndia.org/5560/Wed...-A/Osborne.pdf

    I read on this Ryeteon presentaiton that with accuracy of 50meters their product can cost less than $5,000
    http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004guns/fri/geswender.ppt

    very interestign reading!

    Comment


    • #3
      Today learned that French Army is considering acquisition of Krasnopol guidance system for their artillery shells.
      http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publ...cle_005638.php

      India and China has acquired them already. Though I was surprised to hear the price they paid.... I was told by Shipunov that Krasnopol guidance costs as ten shells.

      During a 1999 war with Pakistan, high in the Himalayan mountains, Krasnopol proved very useful in taking out enemy bunkers, without causing avalanches or destroying the few pathways up the steep hills. The Indians paid about $40,000 for each Krasnopol shell (two thirds what the Copperhead was supposed to cost), and found it a good investment.
      During tests in France the Bofors destroyed 5 targets with five 155mm shells equipped with Krasnopol guidance system (3 MOVING tanks, one APC and concrete wall) from 12km distance, with guiding personnel at 3km to the targets.

      I know that many here do not respect FAS much but this is their evaluation of Krasnopol weapon
      http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/l.../krasnopol.htm

      a shorter description from
      http://www.defense-update.com/produc...ol-kitolov.htm

      Comment


      • #4
        The majority of fire would still be the dumb shells and accuracy would be dependent on firing solutions rather than smart shells.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
          The majority of fire would still be the dumb shells and accuracy would be dependent on firing solutions rather than smart shells.
          That is beyond my undestanding of artillery. But I see that artillery is cheaper delivery of smart explosives to the target than smart bombs!

          Don't you think that proliferation of such smart shells would introduce great change in future tactics?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Garry
            That is beyond my undestanding of artillery. But I see that artillery is cheaper delivery of smart explosives to the target than smart bombs!
            Effective limitations of range and openned to counter-battery operations.

            Originally posted by Garry
            Don't you think that proliferation of such smart shells would introduce great change in future tactics?
            Already have. The shoot-and-scoot is the favoured tactic instead of waiting for a confirmation round before FFE.

            Comment


            • #7
              What does Fire for effect exactly mean? Does it mean firing a dud round to get the range and accuracy right, and then deliver the real thing?

              Comment


              • #8
                Laser guided shells are cheaper than GPS shells, but you must have someone paint the target with laser. It also needs clear weather to work.

                GPS shells can be done by aerial/satellite recon and in all weather conditions. No need to insert boots on the ground near the target. Altough I suppose one could use an UAV to paint the target.
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Blademaster
                  What does Fire for effect exactly mean? Does it mean firing a dud round to get the range and accuracy right, and then deliver the real thing?
                  It means start raining steel exactly where I want it to rain steel.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gunnut
                    Laser guided shells are cheaper than GPS shells, but you must have someone paint the target with laser. It also needs clear weather to work.
                    You will defn have your birds in the air either to acheive air supremacy or to give cover to your army or to conduct bombing raids on your enemy. So I guess Laser guided shells would work most of the times for lesser cost, rite?

                    For Indian scenario, all they had to do was to fly with in our territory and paint the targets perched in the mountains plus by using birds you get better visibility, and accurate locations.
                    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gunnut
                      Laser guided shells are cheaper than GPS shells, but you must have someone paint the target with laser. It also needs clear weather to work.

                      GPS shells can be done by aerial/satellite recon and in all weather conditions. No need to insert boots on the ground near the target. Altough I suppose one could use an UAV to paint the target.
                      GPS is best to hit large stationary targets..... no weather limitations... dust or smoke would never stop it. But still somebody must fly/go few miles close to the target to give correct positioning data (Can satelite do this?). And finally GPS guidance is less precise..... from what I read most precise Excalibur gives error up to 20-30 meters, while laser guided shells only 1 meter.

                      Probably shooting lazer guided non-direct fire artillery shells is not PERFECT for moving targets like tank/truck/APC, but it may work in a situation when fire is given timelly after laser guidance operator calculates coverage zone. Shipunov calculated that tank at maximum speed on a road may exit such a zone withing 1 minute, while in offroad condition it will remain pre-calculated attack zone for more than 2 minutes...... enough to calculate/communicate targeting data and fire guided shell.

                      Cost difference. Lazer guidance is something very conventional and simple => lower cost and opportunities for massive application.

                      And final.... - GPS datalink may be easily copied and jammed.
                      Last edited by Garry; 20 Apr 06,, 09:47.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Garry
                        GPS is best to hit large stationary targets..... no weather limitations... dust or smoke would never stop it. But still somebody must fly/go few miles close to the target to give correct positioning data (Can satelite do this?). And finally GPS guidance is less precise..... from what I read most precise Excalibur gives error up to 20-30 meters, while laser guided shells only 1 meter.

                        Probably shooting lazer guided non-direct fire artillery shells is not PERFECT for moving targets like tank/truck/APC, but it may work in a situation when fire is given timelly after laser guidance operator calculates coverage zone. Shipunov calculated that tank at maximum speed on a road may exit such a zone withing 1 minute, while in offroad condition it will remain pre-calculated attack zone for more than 2 minutes...... enough to calculate/communicate targeting data and fire guided shell.

                        Cost difference. Lazer guidance is something very conventional and simple => lower cost and opportunities for massive application.

                        And final.... - GPS datalink may be easily copied and jammed.

                        Garry, Don't believe all the press reports

                        GPS is not easily jammed. And by now all US GPS recievers have anti spoofing software.

                        Instead of comparing Krasnopol with Excaliber you need to google Copperhead.
                        We have been doing it since the 80s also. We are phasing Copperhead because, even though you cannot beat it when everything works, It rarely works correctly :)

                        The easiest way to beat them is the way the Soviets practiced, Laser Warning Detectors that cue smoke grenades.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gun Grape
                          The easiest way to beat them is the way the Soviets practiced, Laser Warning Detectors that cue smoke grenades.
                          Ooooh, that sounds like a very simple yet effective counter to anything guided by laser.

                          True, GPS shells can't hit a moving target, but artilery isn't normally used to hit small moving targets to begin with. Also one would first need to confirm the target's presence before launching a barrage.

                          Each has its own uses. Best to have them both.
                          "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gun Grape
                            Garry, Don't believe all the press reports

                            GPS is not easily jammed. And by now all US GPS recievers have anti spoofing software.

                            Instead of comparing Krasnopol with Excaliber you need to google Copperhead.
                            We have been doing it since the 80s also. We are phasing Copperhead because, even though you cannot beat it when everything works, It rarely works correctly :)

                            The easiest way to beat them is the way the Soviets practiced, Laser Warning Detectors that cue smoke grenades.
                            I agree, unfortunaelly the smoke/dust/cloud woudl beat anything lazer guided.

                            I read about Cooperhead, it was itneresting to hear from the author that Krasnopol had experienced problems. If you hear more about them drop me a link!
                            http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hta.../20020602.aspx

                            I was told that GPS signal is constant and therefore can be copied by alternative emmitter. Hence GPS guided bombs were deviated from the targets. Probably it is not that easy to do but sound quite feasible.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by gunnut
                              Ooooh, that sounds like a very simple yet effective counter to anything guided by laser.

                              True, GPS shells can't hit a moving target, but artilery isn't normally used to hit small moving targets to begin with. Also one would first need to confirm the target's presence before launching a barrage.

                              Each has its own uses. Best to have them both.
                              Hei, I read that GPS guided ammunition (Excalibur) has an error of up to 20 meters. If so would these shells still be a precision weapon?

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