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Ironduke
22 Nov 03,, 19:02
Political chaos grips Georgia

Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze has declared a state of emergency after opposition forces seized parliament.

He refused to resign and said the armed forces would now take over after what he called a coup attempt.

Crowds led by main opposition leader Mikhail Saakashvili stormed the parliament building after weeks of protests over disputed elections.

Nino Burjanadze, outgoing speaker of parliament, says she has become interim president.

But the situation is confused, with Mr Saakashvili appearing to suggest that Mr Shevardnadze could stay on - but only if he called early presidential elections.

"If he announces... some transitional period for new presidential elections, that's fine," he told CNN.

'Civil war'

Mr Shevardnadze had been addressing the first session of parliament after the victory of his party and its allies in 2 November elections, which were declared fraudulent by international observers.

As opposition supporters stormed the building, he was bundled away by his bodyguards.

The country's armed forces did not intervene, and it is unclear whether they will enforce a state of emergency.

Speaking to journalists, Mr Shevardnadze said: "With such people around, a civil war may start tomorrow...

"If I show weakness now, people will no longer forgive me."

Ms Burjanadze, leader of another opposition group, announced that she had assumed the powers of the president during a speech broadcast live by Georgian television.

"Until the issue of the president's capacity is finally resolved and until the date of the new presidential and parliamentary elections is fixed, I have to assume upon myself those functions for which I am responsible by the constitution," she said.

Hail of books

Hundreds of opposition supporters drove Mr Shevardnadze's supporters from parliament under a hail of books and pens after a number of fist-fights.

Live television pictures showed scenes reminiscent of the revolutions that toppled the communist governments of Eastern Europe more than a decade ago.

Opposition supporters have now entered the building housing the office of the president, while tens of thousands of others are crowding outside parliament.

Opposition leaders made speeches inside the building after taking control.

"The velvet revolution has taken place in Georgia," Mr Saakashvili said, as the hall applauded him. "We are against violence."

Mr Shevardnadze, the former Soviet foreign minister, has clung to power through war, civil unrest and economic crisis in his country.

He had been under pressure to resign for several weeks before Saturday's dramatic events.

Mr Saakashvili had earlier vowed to "trample" the country's leadership as he led opposition activists up to the gates in front of Mr Shevardnadze's offices and called for the president to step down.

On Friday, the United States called on Georgia's government to conduct an independent investigation into the disputed election results.

State department spokesman Adam Ereli said the election results reflected "massive vote fraud" in some regions and "do not accurately reflect the will of the Georgian people".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3229266.stm

Leader
22 Nov 03,, 21:40
It was funny watching the president getting dragged out by his security and then some twenty year old punk walks up to the front of the chamber and starts slamming the gavel.:roll

s_qwert63
23 Nov 03,, 00:25
Yes, yes very humorous.
Very humorous to watch a country on the brink of a civil war.
HOW OLD ARE YOU?

Leader
23 Nov 03,, 00:53
Originally posted by s_qwert63
Yes, yes very humorous.
Very humorous to watch a country on the brink of a civil war.
HOW OLD ARE YOU?

I care about as much about Georgia as do about the Netherlands. Which is to say, I wouldn’t notice if they ceased to exist.

s_qwert63
23 Nov 03,, 01:18
Well, blatantely, you ARE an American.
So how old are you then? 12? 13?
Judging by your grade one spelling mistakes, your grammar (considering English is your first language), your half-assed arguments that are backed up with nothing I think you are about 10.

Lotta Troll BS to shovel out.

Leader
23 Nov 03,, 01:34
Originally posted by s_qwert63
Well, blatantely, you ARE an American.
So how old are you then? 12? 13?
Judging by your grade one spelling mistakes, your grammar (considering English is your first language), your half-assed arguments that are backed up with nothing I think you are about 10.

How old are you? You haven't made a political argument all day. You're argument is obviously so weak that you have to resort to ad hominem attacks.

Lunatock
23 Nov 03,, 02:28
Looks like he left before the thinking our posts make him do shorted out his brain.

I guess he'll be back with more extravagent claims.

First he know's a lot of Chechens. And American's know nothing because they are American.

Then he claims to know Chechen refugee's and Rebels. And then claims Aukai Collins is a pathological liar, Chechen rebels are terrorist animals.

Also that Lithuania is turning into the Fourth Riech.

Along with other personal attacks and indoctrinated nonesence he tries to dispell historical fact with.

Ray
23 Nov 03,, 03:12
Sqwert

Forget for once [at least] that the Cold War is NOT over.

Since you are an expert with the official Soviet view, what do you make out of this interesting situation where the President is hustled out and non elected chaps start passing diktats!

In one way, that is the best form of democracy when 'the people' take over en masse the concept of 'of the people' and start doing it 'by the people'

Of course, some folks may think that is what embodies the concept called 'anarchy'. I am sure you would disagree.

Ironduke
23 Nov 03,, 20:01
People power forces Georgia leader out

Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze has resigned amid massive protests over disputed election results.

He announced the move after opposition leader Mikhail Saakashvili gave him an ultimatum to go at talks mediated by Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov.

The news was greeted by jubilant scenes in the capital Tbilisi, where fireworks lit up the night sky.

Opposition supporters broke into cheers outside the parliament building, which they took over on Saturday.

Speaking on national television, Mr Shevardnadze said: "It is probably better for the president to resign, all this to end, end peacefully and blood is not spilt and no casualties are caused."

Asked about who was succeeding him, he replied: "It is no longer my business."

Mr Saakashvili had threatened to lead a march on the presidential residence, where the final talks were held, unless Mr Shevardnadze stood down.

The BBC's Chloe Arnold, in Tbilisi, says the key to his downfall was that the army withdrew its support from the veteran president.

Earlier, Mr Shevardnadze - who had declared a state of emergency - said he was prepared to discuss holding an early presidential election, or the re-staging of the disputed parliamentary elections.

The presidential plane was being prepared at Tbilisi airport but an opposition leader said Mr Shevardnadze intended to remain in Georgia for the time being.

Dramatic scenes

Saturday saw the first session of the country's new parliament break up in pandemonium when opposition supporters led by Mr Saakashvili stormed the building, forcing Mr Shevardnadze and his supporters to flee.

Mr Shevardnadze had been addressing the first session of the newly-elected parliament after the victory of his party and its allies in the 2 November elections, which were declared fraudulent by international observers.

After Mr Shevardnadze was forced out of his offices by protesters, the outgoing opposition parliament speaker, Nino Burjanadze, said she was temporarily assuming the presidency.

It was the culmination of weeks of protests over the elections.

Former Soviet republics condemned the takeover of parliament by the opposition.

Plaudits

Correspondents say Mr Shevardnadze, once a popular and admired leader, is now seen by many Georgians as a failure who allowed corruption to flourish and poverty to spread under his rule.

When he first became leader of Georgia in 1992, he was praised for ending the anarchy that threatened to engulf newly independent Georgia following the break-up of the Soviet Union.

He had already won plaudits for the way he helped transform the Soviet Union when he was its foreign minister under Mikhail Gorbachev in the late 1980s.

But despite large amounts of US aid, Georgia, once one of the most prosperous regions in Soviet Russia, grew poorer under Mr Shevardnadze - partly because of widespread corruption and crime and partly because of the damage wrought by internal conflicts.

Mr Shevardnadze survived two assassination attempts in the 1990s.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3231534.stm

Ironduke
24 Nov 03,, 16:11
Georgia keeps sights set on West

Georgia's new interim leader has said her country will maintain its pro-West stance after the resignation of long-time leader Eduard Shevardnadze.

Acting President Nino Burdzhanadze said the country still aimed to join Nato and the EU as soon as possible.

Meanwhile, there was confusion over the location of Mr Shevardnadze after reports said he had landed in Germany.

But these were later retracted and aides said the ousted leader was at home in Tbilisi, "sleeping until noon".

In Georgia, life began to return to normal on Monday after three weeks of protest toppled Mr Shevardnadze in the wake of alleged fraud in parliamentary elections.

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in the capital Tbilisi said people were out shopping, and planting trees and bushes to replace those uprooted during unrest.

Ms Burdzhanadze praised the behaviour of the Georgian people over the past three weeks.

"We have managed to overcome the gravest crisis in Georgia's recent history without shedding a single drop of blood," she said.

She commended the police and army for standing "on the side of the people in these most difficult days".

The country's new leaders are expected to ask the US for $5m to fund fresh elections.


Russian concern

But Russian President Vladimir Putin expressed reservations about the way in which Mr Shevardnadze was forced from power.

"There is logical concern that the transfer of power in Georgia has taken place against a background of strong pressure of the use of force," Mr Putin said on state television on Monday.

"Those who organise and encourage such actions must assume their responsibilities before the Georgian people," he said.

Mr Shevardnadze is remembered warmly for his role in the reunification of Germany after the fall of the Berlin Wall, says the BBC's Ray Furlong in Berlin.

He was Soviet Foreign Minister under Mikhail Gorbachev and wrote a book about the experience which became a best-seller in Germany, our correspondent says.

Mr Putin's own foreign minister, Igor Ivanov, is believed to have played a key role in negotiating Mr Shevardnadze's resignation on Sunday.

He met Mr Shevardnadze and opposition leaders at the weekend before the resignation.

Tense relations

Russia and Georgia have had tense relations since Georgia became independent with the break-up of the Soviet Union.

Russia accuses Georgia of harbouring Chechen militants, while Georgia accuses Moscow of backing separatist movements in the country.

Declaring an end to the disobedience campaign that forced Mr Shevardnadze out, Ms Burdzhanadze said the country must work to strengthen its ties with its neighbours and "the great state of Russia".

The US has developed strong interests in Georgia since its independence, as the main backer of a pipeline designed to bring oil from the Caspian sea to the West via Georgia.

Presidential powers

Ms Burdzhanadze said that presidential duties had passed to her in accordance with the constitution until elections are held within 45 days.

The country's new leaders also vowed to reopen negotiations with the International Monetary Fund, which cut ties with the cash-strapped country, citing corruption and failure to collect taxes.

Wild, noisy celebrations lasted late into the night after Mr Shevardnadze resigned on Sunday.

"I feel really powerful - and happy," one beaming reveller told the BBC.

"We did what we wanted. This is our freedom," said another.

Georgia's political crisis came to a head on Saturday when opposition supporters - led by opposition leader Mikhail Saakashvili - stormed parliament.

Mr Shevardnadze first declared a state of emergency, refusing to hand over power, but after talks with Russia's Mr Ivanov on Sunday agreed to resign his 10-year presidency.

Regional analyst Tom de Waal says that Mr Shevardnadze's resignation marks the end of the immediate crisis - but warned problems could lie ahead.

"We're now facing a group of inexperienced politicians coming to power on this wave of euphoria, but they're totally untested," Mr de Waal told the BBC's Newshour programme.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3232158.stm

Ray
24 Nov 03,, 20:28
Georgia is wanting to join the NATO. How is Russia taking this situation?

bigross86
24 Nov 03,, 22:39
That's a pretty interesting twist...

Ray
25 Nov 03,, 03:08
It may appear interesting but it is what is called realpolitik. I am keen to know about the reaction. More so, because the Russian foreign minister has hotfooted it to Tbiliski.

roshan
26 Nov 03,, 09:53
russia is a nation that no longer has any influence on world politics whatsoever.

s_qwert63
26 Nov 03,, 16:03
Originally posted by roshan
russia is a nation that no longer has any influence on world politics whatsoever.

Except for the biggest arsenal of nuclear weapons. It is still the dominant power in the Far East, and Central Asia. So if you want involvement in Central Asia/Caucasus you would need to consult the Russians.

s_qwert63
26 Nov 03,, 16:07
Originally posted by Ray
It may appear interesting but it is what is called realpolitik. I am keen to know about the reaction. More so, because the Russian foreign minister has hotfooted it to Tbiliski.

The city is called Tbilisi - "Tbeeleesee". The biggest Soviet aircraft carrier was named Tbilisi.
And it was Shevarnadze who wanted to enter NATO, to show Putin that he had bigger manhood. However most Georgians do not like the American presence in the area and would not like to see NATO bases on their soil.
However, while Putin was still sucking on his mothers' breast Shevarnadze was one of the biggest players in Soviet politics. He was the Soviet Foreign Minister from until 1991, and had the infamous dinner with Reagan when the latter one told him about his "space alien invasion" hypothesis.

s_qwert63
26 Nov 03,, 16:10
Originally posted by Lunatock
First he know's a lot of Chechans. And American's know nothing because they are American.

Tell me about the Chechens you know.


Then he claims to know Chechan refugee's and Rebels. And then claims Aukai Collins is a pathological liar, Chechan rebels are terrorist animals.

I am from Kazakhstan, it has the second biggest population of Chechens in the world after Russia, Stalin expelled them to Kazakhstan during the Great Patriotic War, I also knew a lot of Chechens (not Chechans).
And the Chechen rebels are fucked up, well their Arab friends are.


Also that Lithuania is turning into the Fourth Riech.


It is.

Lunatock
26 Nov 03,, 18:10
Originally posted by s_qwert63


Tell me about the Chechens you know.

[/b]

I am from Kazakhstan, it has the second biggest population of Chechens in the world after Russia, Stalin expelled them to Kazakhstan during the Great Patriotic War, I also knew a lot of Chechens (not Chechans).
And the Chechen rebels are fucked up, well their Arab friends are.



It is. [/B]

Well let's see now. Some of the stuff that doesn't fall under none of your business would be.

The Chechen woman that had me as a guest when I was in Lithuania, and was kind enough to give me a break from cabbage, or food with cabbage in it. Woman in her thirties-forties, wearing a Hijab, that Chechen women wear.

At least three pasta shells with ground beef in them. Good eating.
The fact that it was a break from the Frito's and hot chocolate I packed, and the cabbage infested...everything, that was made for the Americans on that trip. Only made them dissapear a few seconds sooner.

And she was a nice enough host, despite having to repeat her request for me to take my hiking boots off in her apartment.

There's also my "partner in crime". At least partially Chechen as well. Also met her in Lithuania, about eleven years ago. And we've been through some hella strange things together.

s_qwert63
26 Nov 03,, 20:43
Originally posted by Lunatock
Well let's see now. Some of the stuff that doesn't fall under none of your business would be.

The Chechen woman that had me as a guest when I was in Lithuania, and was kind enough to give me a break from cabbage, or food with cabbage in it. Woman in her thirties-forties, wearing a Hijab, that Chechen women wear.

At least three pasta shells with ground beef in them. Good eating.
The fact that it was a break from the Frito's and hot chocolate I packed, and the cabbage infested...everything, that was made for the Americans on that trip. Only made them dissapear a few seconds sooner.

And she was a nice enough host, despite having to repeat her request for me to take my hiking boots off in her apartment.

There's also my "partner in crime". At least partially Chechen as well. Also met her in Lithuania, about eleven years ago. And we've been through some hella strange things together.

Chechens in Lithuania, let me see.
Lithuania accepts Chechen refugees because:
Lithuania is a major supplier of mercenaries for Chechnya.
Lithuania is a meeting place for the mercenaries that come from overseas to get into Chechnya illegaly through Georgia and Azerbaijan.

Did you find any AK's stashed behind the couch?

PS: The fact that the woman you met wore a vail or a paranja, just underscores the fact that she was an extremist. Most Cechen women are more liberal, there are no laws within the Russian Federation binding women to wear vails (as there are in Arab dictatorships). Most Chechens I know are not even religious.

Marking this one off as well Admins.

bigross86
26 Nov 03,, 20:53
You know, this is all pretty useless unless you can find someone who live in Lithuania to answer these questions.

Lunatock
26 Nov 03,, 20:55
Originally posted by s_qwert63
Chechens in Lithuania, let me see.
Lithuania accepts Chechen refugees because:
Lithuania is a major supplier of mercenaries for Chechnya.
Lithuania is a meeting place for the mercenaries that come from overseas to get into Chechnya illegaly through Georgia and Azerbaijan.

Did you find any AK's stashed behind the couch?

PS: The fact that the woman you met wore a vail or a paranja, just underscores the fact that she was an extremist. Most Cechen women are more liberal, there are no laws within the Russian Federation binding women to wear vails (as there are in Arab dictatorships). Most Chechens I know are not even religious.

If you can't say anything nice. Shut the hell up.

How exactly is Lithuania a meeting place for Chechen Fighters? They'd have to cross Russia to get there, close to or through Moscow. Either that or go around it.
But for the later, Russia's security probably sucks enough to allow them to go through.

Wow...and funny how the new nazi stronghold is also a major Chechen stronghold. Let me ask you this...quit being spitefull of everything I type!

Furthermore. I just wouldn't be a good guest if I let you put down a (former) host like that.

No there were no AK47's stashed under her couch. And since when did "extremists" warmly welcome Americans as guests, and cook them a meal?

You sound like the American hate mongers that associate anything to do with Islam to terrorism. Obviously you learned much from the two days you were suspended..out of the thirty Ironman should of kept you off this board.

s_qwert63
26 Nov 03,, 21:32
.

Lunatock
26 Nov 03,, 21:36
Originally posted by s_qwert63
GOD...
Lithuania supplied many mercenaries to Chechnya.
Chechen rebel field commanders get most of their fake money (that they pay their thugs with) from Lithuania.
Lithuania is very anti-Russian and therefor harbours anti-Russian organizations.
Lithuania is the meeting place for Pakistanis, Americans and European Muslims who want to get annihilated in Chechnya. because if you go straight from Pakistan to georgia, the Georgians would get suspicious. But if you come from Lithuania they will be less suspicious and it will take less money to bribe them.
Geez and I thought you knew something about the Chechen war.

Annihilated? By a "professional army" that took two wars to capature the towns. Gets butchered like it did in Afghanistan.

And as a bonus. During the first Chechen war. The Muslims would even drive the Russians from towns they held.

s_qwert63
26 Nov 03,, 21:47
Originally posted by Lunatock
Annihilated? By a "professional army" that took two wars to capature the towns. Gets butchered like it did in Afghanistan.

And as a bonus. During the first Chechen war. The Muslims would even drive the Russians from towns they held.

That just shows how much you know about Chechnya.
Been reading too much www.kavkaz.org.uk lately?.Terrorism insinuation. can we ban his ass yet?
Grozny was captured in the first war, most of the rebels were defeated, although this did come at a price, but it was not as heavy as the one that the rebels payed. The only thing that was left to do was to root out the rebels from the mountains. But Chernomyrdin started negotiating after Budenovsk.
The Muslims captured Russian held towns?
How could they amass so much strength as to take under control a town in Russia?
If you are talking about the terrorist act in Budenovsk, when Shamil Basaev captured a hospital full of preagnant women and women with newborn babies, then you are bluffing. The only reason why the terrorists were allowed to escape was because Chernomyrdin told the FSB not to fire on the buses with the terrorists.
And why do you call them Muslims? They are Chechens (with an E not ChechAns), a Chechen is first of all a Chechen, a Mountain Warrior and only then a Muslim. Shows how much you know about Chechen culture.
And when did the Soviets (not Russians - but you wouldn't know what the Soviets are) get "butchered" in Afghanistan?
The US lost more troops KIA in Vietnam in 1968 then we did in Afghanistan in 10 years. And our army was always winning the battles against those mujahedin, who were as incompetent as ever, they only had the resiliance, not the experience.
Really dude, you should actually find out something war related and how war is waged before starting arguments about how the Soviet Army was butchered in Afghanistan and how Russian towns were captured by Chechens

Lunatock
26 Nov 03,, 22:27
Originally posted by s_qwert63
That just shows how much you know about Chechnya.
Been reading too much www.kavkaz.org.uk lately?
Grozny was captured in the first war, most of the rebels were defeated, although this did come at a price, but it was not as heavy as the one that the rebels payed. The only thing that was left to do was to root out the rebels from the mountains. But Chernomyrdin started negotiating after Budenovsk.
The Muslims captured Russian held towns?
How could they amass so much strength as to take under control a town in Russia?
If you are talking about the terrorist act in Budenovsk, when Shamil Basaev captured a hospital full of preagnant women and women with newborn babies, then you are bluffing. The only reason why the terrorists were allowed to escape was because Chernomyrdin told the FSB not to fire on the buses with the terrorists.
And why do you call them Muslims? They are Chechens (with an E not ChechAns), a Chechen is first of all a Chechen, a Mountain Warrior and only then a Muslim. Shows how much you know about Chechen culture.
And when did the Soviets (not Russians - but you wouldn't know what the Soviets are) get "butchered" in Afghanistan?
The US lost more troops KIA in Vietnam in 1968 then we did in Afghanistan in 10 years. And our army was always winning the battles against those mujahedin, who were as incompetent as ever, they only had the resiliance, not the experience.
Really dude, you should actually find out something war related and how war is waged before starting arguments about how the Soviet Army was butchered in Afghanistan and how Russian towns were captured by Chechens.

I was referring to a Chechen town called Vedeno. Russia held it. Er excuse me, Godless Soviet Pigs held it. Ibn-ul Khattab led an offensive that drove the new & improved Commies out.

The rest of your post...:LOL :LOL :LOL Russian Federation Indoctranation at it's finest...ation.

P.s. here's something that would be equally rediculous for you to speak on. One of the "hella strange things" my "partner in crime" & myself have been through.

A little dispute with Matt Hale and his group, Church Of The Creator. Making thier presence felt around here, in 1998. Some of his flunkies tried to kill me. And tried to make the locals think she was behind it.

Thier trick didn't work. And when they almost had a fight on thier hands. They chose to instead turn themselves in to the Police, and not have to face any form of Justice for what they did.

Now I wonder how you could spin this into a tale of an "organised group of White Supremists annihilating a rag tag group of at at least a hundred hooligans, with a few Muslims as key players."

Also a battle on a nearby city, York, Pa.
250 Nazi's faced about the same number of average punk kids. While the Nazi's were marching through the city.

You did such a wonderfull piece of fiction with Commie incursions. :wacko Create a Victory for the Extreme Right Wing, America hating scum. :w00t :roll :wacko

Lunatock
26 Nov 03,, 22:39
Originally posted by s_qwert63
That just shows how much you know about Chechnya.
Been reading too much www.kavkaz.org.uk lately?.Terrorism insinuation. can we ban his ass yet?
Grozny was captured in the first war, most of the rebels were defeated, although this did come at a price, but it was not as heavy as the one that the rebels payed. The only thing that was left to do was to root out the rebels from the mountains. But Chernomyrdin started negotiating after Budenovsk.
The Muslims captured Russian held towns?
How could they amass so much strength as to take under control a town in Russia?
If you are talking about the terrorist act in Budenovsk, when Shamil Basaev captured a hospital full of preagnant women and women with newborn babies, then you are bluffing. The only reason why the terrorists were allowed to escape was because Chernomyrdin told the FSB not to fire on the buses with the terrorists.
And why do you call them Muslims? They are Chechens (with an E not ChechAns), a Chechen is first of all a Chechen, a Mountain Warrior and only then a Muslim. Shows how much you know about Chechen culture.
And when did the Soviets (not Russians - but you wouldn't know what the Soviets are) get "butchered" in Afghanistan?
The US lost more troops KIA in Vietnam in 1968 then we did in Afghanistan in 10 years. And our army was always winning the battles against those mujahedin, who were as incompetent as ever, they only had the resiliance, not the experience.
Really dude, you should actually find out something war related and how war is waged before starting arguments about how the Soviet Army was butchered in Afghanistan and how Russian towns were captured by Chechens

Starting arguments? I'm sorry, but did you say starting arguments? It's called debating. And your the one going around talking trash to board members. Not to mention places I've gone, and people I've met.

s_qwert63
26 Nov 03,, 23:01
Clearly shows how lacking your knowledge is about the Chechen war and how indoctrinated your little mind was: by your Muslim parents and then by American propoganda.

Wrong again. The rent's aren't Muslim. And I've learned all my "American Indoctranation". By traveling to places like Vilnuis, Lithuania. And/or was told about the worlds trouble spots by people who;ve been there. Such as pre-invasion Iraq.


BTW. To show I mean what I said. This post went. The rest of yours will too if you keep the personal attacks.

Lunatock
26 Nov 03,, 23:22
So if a copy of an ibn-ul Khatab pic, of him tickling a 5 year old Chechen girl. Had my head photoshoped onto her body & was posted here. You'd move elsewhere to Troll?

Doktor
11 Nov 11,, 14:49
Can somebody close this thread, as it is obviously a magnet for bots.

bigross86
11 Nov 11,, 14:58
As if they need an excuse...