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  • Tank gun stabilizers

    I have to bring up the interpretation of "Stabilized Gun". To me, a stabilized gun is one equipped with level sensors, dump valves, etc. to stabilize the barrel to keep it on target while the tank is still moving.

    At least, that's what I was told by my instructors when I went to tank turret school at Fort Irwin in 1960 or 61 (some memory cells melted in the heat there).

    The closest we had then was a dump valve to ELEVATE the 90mm gun on an M-48 while traversing across the rear "hump" of the engine compartment.

    Full stabilizing systems were still being tested and redesigned and redesigned again to save space and improve accuracy. So, to my knowledge, no stabilizing system was installed as a standard piece of equipment to ANY tank until the 1960s.

    It still ticks me off when some "bookworm" asks me how the stabilizing system and range finder worked in MY tank. Sorry, the M-41 Walker Bulldog (the general issued models) never, ever had any of these. Some modified Walkers in some foreign countries now have those welcome gizmos (including changing over from the 6-cylinder Cadillac Continental engine to a Cummings Diesel, changing the 76mm to a 90mm low pressure gun, etc).

    But otherwise she was just 25 tons of high speed tank with a very high velocity 76mm gun where often the most sophisticated sighting system was the Mk-1 eyeball.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  • #2
    Well that was interesting, but who were you talking to? ;)

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    • #3
      Yeah, I thought that I was going to get to answer a question on modern tank stab but then after reading it I realized that there were no questions, just a statement.

      :)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by tankervet
        Yeah, I thought that I was going to get to answer a question on modern tank stab but then after reading it I realized that there were no questions, just a statement.

        :)
        It's true that I only made a statement and did not ask a question. But the subject came to my mind from another thread that claimed the M-26 Pershing tank had a fully stabilized gun. Whether that is true or not, I don't know as Pershings were out of service by the time I was in the Reserves (1955 to 1962).

        On top of that I have read postings on other, so called "historical", sites that claimed the M-41 Walkers had stabilized guns. Checking out the persons who posted that misinformation I found they were usually young tank enthusiasts who have read up a lot on tanks (bookworms) but most of them have never seen the inside of one.

        The only efficient gun stabilizers built in WW II were on our "Big Gun" warships such as Battleships and Heavy Cruisers. I have personally witnessed the 16"/50 barrels on Iowa class BBs automatically elevating and depressing to compensate for the roll of the ship. But then a ship doesn't roll as violently as an off road tank.

        Sorry, it just bothers me when speculation or wishful thinking is written up as historical documentation.
        Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by RustyBattleship
          It's true that I only made a statement and did not ask a question. But the subject came to my mind from another thread that claimed the M-26 Pershing tank had a fully stabilized gun. Whether that is true or not, I don't know as Pershings were out of service by the time I was in the Reserves (1955 to 1962).

          On top of that I have read postings on other, so called "historical", sites that claimed the M-41 Walkers had stabilized guns. Checking out the persons who posted that misinformation I found they were usually young tank enthusiasts who have read up a lot on tanks (bookworms) but most of them have never seen the inside of one.

          The only efficient gun stabilizers built in WW II were on our "Big Gun" warships such as Battleships and Heavy Cruisers. I have personally witnessed the 16"/50 barrels on Iowa class BBs automatically elevating and depressing to compensate for the roll of the ship. But then a ship doesn't roll as violently as an off road tank.

          Sorry, it just bothers me when speculation or wishful thinking is written up as historical documentation.
          I was just reading a site the other day that said the British Mk3 Centurion was the first tank with a stabilized gun system. I believe that was 1st introduced in like 1951.

          Whether or not it actually had a stabilized gun or not, i have no idea....but it was claimed to have had one.

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          • #6
            The only efficient gun stabilizers built in WW II were on our "Big Gun" warships such as Battleships and Heavy Cruisers. I have personally witnessed the 16"/50 barrels on Iowa class BBs automatically elevating and depressing to compensate for the roll of the ship. But then a ship doesn't roll as violently as an off road tank.
            Hey Rusty, do you know how these stabilized guns worked? Did they have gyros in them at the time. Im sure that they had to have something like that to sense the pitch and roll of the ship.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by tankervet
              Hey Rusty, do you know how these stabilized guns worked? Did they have gyros in them at the time. Im sure that they had to have something like that to sense the pitch and roll of the ship.
              I wish I could answer that in detail but I'm a structural designer, not hydraulics. Taking a quick check through my copy of NAVORD OP 769 (the basic operating manual for the 16"/50 guns) chapter 5 on gun elevation briefly describes that Stabilizing Valves are inside the Elevation Receiver-Regulator assemby on the electric deck below the pan deck.

              I have three more VERY highly detailed manuals on those guns and I'm just not up to going through them, at least not today. I'm sure one of them will describe how the level of the ship is sensed and relayed to the stabilizing valves to raise and lower the barrels as the ship rolls.
              Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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              • #8
                Yeah I understand. I just started thinking about the ships and stab after you mentioned it before and it must have been what us tankers got our stab system from. But of course the ship is much more complex, since there can be different ammounts of pitch and roll at different parts of the ship. Very interesting now that i think about it. Im going to have to read up on it.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by tankervet
                  . But of course the ship is much more complex, since there can be different ammounts of pitch and roll at different parts of the ship.
                  Unless i'm stupid you can have the exact same thing in an armored vehicle moving cross country. The suspension helps to elimate body movement, but it does not eliminate it, and part of the track(meaning vehicle) can be going up while another part is going down.

                  Where the vehicle would have the edge in ease of firing solution would be that it only has one gun to figure, not 9 placed a couple hundred feet apart all moving at once!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by M21Sniper
                    Unless i'm stupid you can have the exact same thing in an armored vehicle moving cross country. The suspension helps to elimate body movement, but it does not eliminate it, and part of the track(meaning vehicle) can be going up while another part is going down.

                    Where the vehicle would have the edge in ease of firing solution would be that it only has one gun to figure, not 9 placed a couple hundred feet apart all moving at once!
                    Your right you could have the same thing, but like you said you only have one gun to stabilize. If you had a stabilized gun on the front and back of the tank then it would be more like the battleship, and need more complex system of gyros to stabalize it. As it is now in the tank you have 3 gyros that stabalize the gun, not including the one in the sights. One of the gyros is in the tank hull. I guess the ship would just have to have quite a few in the hull.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tankervet
                      Yeah I understand. I just started thinking about the ships and stab after you mentioned it before and it must have been what us tankers got our stab system from. But of course the ship is much more complex, since there can be different ammounts of pitch and roll at different parts of the ship. Very interesting now that i think about it. Im going to have to read up on it.
                      Actually a tank is worse. I still have a sore spot in my lower back when I hit it against someting in the turret while my Walker was in the Yo-Yos.

                      Pitch and Roll of a ship is slow on a normal firing line. You do not try to get into a firing mode during heavy seas. The mass of the gun barrels themselves makes it impossible for the stabilizing valves to deliver enough pressure fast enough. Don't forget, on an Iowa class, each gun barrel weighs about 118 tons.

                      In a tank, however, you may be sh---ting and getting while firing and need a fast response from the stabilizing system to keep the tube on target. That's fine on rolling terrain with long distances between hills and dips. But the Yo-Yos are going to jolt you around too fast for any electrical, mechanical or hydraulic system to move the mass of the barrel fast enough.

                      Yet the hydro-pneumatic suspension sensing systems I have seen demonstrated appears to take a lot of that bouncing out. I saw a film on TV of some German Leopard tanks being tested in Canada and taking Yo-Yo like terrain with perfect ease. By the third dip my Walker would have been airborne at that speed so a stabilizing system would have been useless weight.
                      Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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