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Ballguy
22 Jan 06,, 01:54
What do you all believe are the most deadly pistol rounds? Be careful about saying "according to......": I'm going to get an ER surgeons input on this one.

Ballguy
23 Jan 06,, 03:01
Is anyone going to respond?

bonehead
23 Jan 06,, 03:45
All things being equal, ie shot placement and bullet wt. The last thing (of the more common calibers) I would want to be hit with is the .357 mag. Ofcourse, an incompetent Dr can do me in just as easy.

TopHatter
23 Jan 06,, 05:02
Ofcourse, an incompetent Dr can do me in just as easy.
Are you President James A. Garfield?? :eek:

bonehead
23 Jan 06,, 05:42
Are you President James A. Garfield?? :eek:

Cough..Cough, I will neither comfirm, nor deny that rumor. Cough.
I will say that my scrotum pressure device, when installed on my dentist, has made my visits more pleasant. "We are not going to hurt each other, are we?"

lemontree
23 Jan 06,, 05:59
What do you all believe are the most deadly pistol rounds? Be careful about saying "according to......": I'm going to get an ER surgeons input on this one.
You mean there are less dangerous pistol rounds?....that don't kill.

leib10
23 Jan 06,, 06:19
Anything .44 Magnum and up is very "deadly", although "effective" would be a better word since all bullets are deadly to a certain degree.

Insomniac
23 Jan 06,, 20:45
I'm not sure, but I thought it was the Desert Eagle's 50.AE round.

RustyBattleship
24 Jan 06,, 02:24
All things being equal, ie shot placement and bullet wt. The last thing (of the more common calibers) I would want to be hit with is the .357 mag. Ofcourse, an incompetent Dr can do me in just as easy.

That's a good point; placement. An expert marksman can kill you with a well placed .22 caliber long rifle rimfire. But that is if you are standing or sitting very still, he is not too far away and using a Remington 513T target rifle aiming at your unprotected temple or eardrum.

But in general combat situations, where bullets are often shot only at the general direction of an enemy, I would bet on the .44 magnum semi-jacketed round from a REVOLVER, with the .44 Automag in the semi-auto pistols. That is if you want knockdown with impressive penetration.

For MORE penetration, however the .41 magnum is considered a greater penetrator than the .44 mag (and there is only .019 difference between the two with .44 actually being .429). Unfortunately that can only apply for revolvers as I have not seen any rimless rifle cartridges modified to take the .41 as in the .44 automag (which actually uses a .308 case cut back to the shoulder).

At least not since I got out of the gun shop business back in the late 70s (partner take-over and too damn much government paperwork).

Defcon 6
24 Jan 06,, 06:29
.50 Ae

bonehead
24 Jan 06,, 06:44
Hey! would a 12 gauge double barrel shotgun with the barrel cut at say.. 5" count as a pistol round? If so then I want to change my answer because...thats gotta hurt.

Dreadnought
24 Jan 06,, 18:28
I would say hollow points or black talons.

lurker
24 Jan 06,, 18:41
There is a nice new family of the enhanced penetration rounds for russian pistols.
Haven't seen them "in the wild" though.

http://club.guns.ru/eng/barnaul.html

Defcon 6
24 Jan 06,, 19:05
http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm

that site is better than yours. take a look sometime.

lurker
24 Jan 06,, 19:12
http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm

that site is better than yours. take a look sometime.
I've seen it, Deafcon. My favourite is pvo.guns.ru ;)

Bill
24 Jan 06,, 19:17
What do you all believe are the most deadly pistol rounds? Be careful about saying "according to......": I'm going to get an ER surgeons input on this one.

Whatever is in my hand.

lurker
24 Jan 06,, 19:20
Whatever is in my hand.
Lol. Agreed. ;)

Best gun in the world is not that good, if you seeing it pointed at you.

Bill
24 Jan 06,, 19:24
:)

sniperdude411
26 Jan 06,, 02:15
Hey! would a 12 gauge double barrel shotgun with the barrel cut at say.. 5" count as a pistol round? If so then I want to change my answer because...thats gotta hurt.

I'd say a flare gun... 4000 for about 30 seconds in your chest... I'd say it's deadly.
Either that or the .500 Magnum or the .460 Magnum with Polymer tips.

OurLastHope
21 May 06,, 22:27
:P (http://www.gurpsmaster.de/pistols.htm)
Weapon Malf Type Damage SS Acc 1/2D Max Wt. RoF Shots ST Rcl Cost LC Holdout
Maadi-Griffin Pistol Crit. Cr.+ 8d-1 15 6+2 440 3,000 15 1/8 1 11 -3 $1,400 2 -4
.50BMG (12.799mm) [l] 1993
Maadi-Griffin Pistol
14-year old fires Maadi-Griffin Pistol This .50 caliber, 17'' barrel, one-shot pistol was designed by Bob Steward. The statistics include extra recoil reduction (as per p. UTII62) by the very effective muzzle break (see second picture). Muzzle blast and noise are monstrous (+4 to hear or spot over the usual modifiers; see under Silencers). Roll against HT-1 when fired indoors without serious ear protection. A failed roll results in temporary Hard of Hearing (as per p. B28) for 1d hours.
http://www.gurpsmaster.de/maadigriffin1.jpg
http://www.gurpsmaster.de/maadigriffin2.jpg
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/photos/weapons_fireams/bmg50cartridgeonruler.jpg
for more info click here X_x (http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2005/01/the_maadi_griff.html)

ArmchairGeneral
21 May 06,, 23:39
That's a pistol in the same way that an anti-tank rifle would make a good deer hunting gun. Seriously though, .500 Mag or .454 Casull. Nothing else can match those for pure power, AFAIK. Of course, an explosive round would always be nice.

Gunny762
22 May 06,, 08:49
.50 Ae
you play too many video games, Hollywood. .500 S&W Mag is the most powerful pistol caliber on the market. If you want to go by what typically is shuttled from the ghetto to the ER, .22 LR is surprisingly high on that list.

jame$thegreat
23 May 06,, 20:57
That's a pistol in the same way that an anti-tank rifle would make a good deer hunting gun. Seriously though, .500 Mag or .454 Casull. Nothing else can match those for pure power, AFAIK. Of course, an explosive round would always be nice.

your wrong .50 BMG is far more powerful than the .500 mag or .454 casull, look at the size difference!

2DREZQ
29 May 06,, 20:39
There is ONE recorded instance (that I know of) of a human surviving a .357 Magnum in the heart. Anything more is just crash & bang.

BTW, the survivor was a policewoman, who proceded to put multiple 9mm rounds into her assailant, who did not survive...

ArmchairGeneral
29 May 06,, 23:34
your wrong .50 BMG is far more powerful than the .500 mag or .454 casull, look at the size difference!
As I said, the .50 BMG is no more a pistol round than a 40 mm Bofors airburst is a good quail round. Sure, you can put it in a "pistol," but it ain't a pistol round, practically speaking.

Defcon 6
31 May 06,, 08:03
you play too many video games, Hollywood. .500 S&W Mag is the most powerful pistol caliber on the market. If you want to go by what typically is shuttled from the ghetto to the ER, .22 LR is surprisingly high on that list.

I don't play video games.

.50 AE

navypeter
01 Jun 06,, 11:36
cop in navy, i fear more of the smaller cal. rounds because those are what penatrate our vests. mine can stop the 357 or 44. but not the little 22. i don't know how good i would feel after gettin hit with the 357 after it was stopped by my vest. i had talked to a doc before at an er and they said most of their injuries are from a 22. proably cause its just a cheaper round to get.

RustyBattleship
01 Jun 06,, 17:23
I think some of you have lost sight of the title of this thread. The question refers to a PISTOL round, not a .50 caliber Browning Machine Gun round that John M. originally designed as an anti-tank round in 1917. I can't imagine anyone building a handgun ("pistol") big enough to chamber it. I CAN imagine there would be somebody out there stupid enough to try to fire it.

As for the S&W .500, .454 Casul and others they may be quite deadly but they are not normal ISSUE firearms. The powder layers in the Casul probably would not stay separated during many combat scenarios (diving into a ditch, etc.) and when mixed would blow the gun up.

There was mention of .22 long rifle being considered perhaps because you can carry a lot of rounds and weigh your enemy down with lead in a short period of time with just a "light rifle" (Remington or Winchester pump). The interesting thing is that the little .22 LR can have more penetrating capabilities of bullet resistant materials than larger bullets. The reason is because it is small enough to squeeze it's way between the weave (if the vest is not resin impregnated) and just slow enough to keep its shape. The higher velocity .223 of an M-16 might be stopped because its high velocity would flatten it out as it makes its first "wiggle" through the weave. But again, we are talking about a RIFLE cartridge, not a PISTOL cartridge.

So, let's put aside the specialty guns, wildcats and shoulder arms and take a look at what's on the shelf. My vote, in order of lethality is:
.25 ACP - Very poor. In some cases have actually bounced off a forehead.
.380 ACP - Fairly good and can cause enough hurt to change the scenario.
.22 Long Rifle - Fairly good penetration but more of a nuisance cartridge.
.22 Rim Fire Magnum - Can be a good day spoiler but not always lethal.
.38 Special - Fairly good but not much more penetration than a .380.
.38 ACP - Same as above but makes a great target pistol on a .45 frame.
.45 ACP - Good knock down round though not much penetration.
9 mm "Luger" - Good penetration, large capacity magazines, but little knockdown power.
.357 Magnum - Good for all-around depending on what kind of bullet you use.
.40 S&W - Good for all-around plus large magazine capacity advantage.
.44 Magnum - Really good. It's taken down Grizzly Bears.
.41 Magnum - Ranks up there with the .44 but with a tad more penetration.
.44 Auto Mag - Come up with a double stack magazine and you have a winner. Extend the Thompson M-1928 A1 receiver and modify it for .44 Auto Mag and you have an unbeatable street fighter.

sappersgt
01 Jun 06,, 18:19
I think some of you have lost sight of the title of this thread. The question refers to a PISTOL round, not a .50 caliber Browning Machine Gun round that John M. originally designed as an anti-tank round in 1917. I can't imagine anyone building a handgun ("pistol") big enough to chamber it. I CAN imagine there would be somebody out there stupid enough to try to fire it.

As for the S&W .500, .454 Casul and others they may be quite deadly but they are not normal ISSUE firearms. The powder layers in the Casul probably would not stay separated during many combat scenarios (diving into a ditch, etc.) and when mixed would blow the gun up.

There was mention of .22 long rifle being considered perhaps because you can carry a lot of rounds and weigh your enemy down with lead in a short period of time with just a "light rifle" (Remington or Winchester pump). The interesting thing is that the little .22 LR can have more penetrating capabilities of bullet resistant materials than larger bullets. The reason is because it is small enough to squeeze it's way between the weave (if the vest is not resin impregnated) and just slow enough to keep its shape. The higher velocity .223 of an M-16 might be stopped because its high velocity would flatten it out as it makes its first "wiggle" through the weave. But again, we are talking about a RIFLE cartridge, not a PISTOL cartridge.

So, let's put aside the specialty guns, wildcats and shoulder arms and take a look at what's on the shelf. My vote, in order of lethality is:
.25 ACP - Very poor. In some cases have actually bounced off a forehead.
.380 ACP - Fairly good and can cause enough hurt to change the scenario.
.22 Long Rifle - Fairly good penetration but more of a nuisance cartridge.
.22 Rim Fire Magnum - Can be a good day spoiler but not always lethal.
.38 Special - Fairly good but not much more penetration than a .380.
.38 ACP - Same as above but makes a great target pistol on a .45 frame.
.45 ACP - Good knock down round though not much penetration.
9 mm "Luger" - Good penetration, large capacity magazines, but little knockdown power.
.357 Magnum - Good for all-around depending on what kind of bullet you use.
.40 S&W - Good for all-around plus large magazine capacity advantage.
.44 Magnum - Really good. It's taken down Grizzly Bears.
.41 Magnum - Ranks up there with the .44 but with a tad more penetration.
.44 Auto Mag - Come up with a double stack magazine and you have a winner. Extend the Thompson M-1928 A1 receiver and modify it for .44 Auto Mag and you have an unbeatable street fighter.

Wow. A .44 Automag Thompson?! I doubt it would happen but it sure makes one think... :biggrin:

jame$thegreat
01 Jun 06,, 21:11
"think some of you have lost sight of the title of this thread. The question refers to a PISTOL round, not a .50 caliber Browning Machine Gun round that John M. originally designed as an anti-tank round in 1917. I can't imagine anyone building a handgun ("pistol") big enough to chamber it. I CAN imagine there would be somebody out there stupid enough to try to fire it.

As for the S&W .500, .454 Casul and others they may be quite deadly but they are not normal ISSUE firearms. The powder layers in the Casul probably would not stay separated during many combat scenarios (diving into a ditch, etc.) and when mixed would blow the gun up.

There was mention of .22 long rifle being considered perhaps because you can carry a lot of rounds and weigh your enemy down with lead in a short period of time with just a "light rifle" (Remington or Winchester pump). The interesting thing is that the little .22 LR can have more penetrating capabilities of bullet resistant materials than larger bullets. The reason is because it is small enough to squeeze it's way between the weave (if the vest is not resin impregnated) and just slow enough to keep its shape. The higher velocity .223 of an M-16 might be stopped because its high velocity would flatten it out as it makes its first "wiggle" through the weave. But again, we are talking about a RIFLE cartridge, not a PISTOL cartridge. "



well, i would like to point out first off that the maadi-griffen .50 BMG is a legitimate pistol although it may be overkill, the fact that it fires a .50 BMG round doesnt exclude it from the ranks of a pistol (it doesnt have a stock ), the .500 S&W and .434 Cassul are also indefinatly pistols although they fire large round, you mention the M-16 as a gun that has little penetrating power i would agree with you there, the M-16 has very good acuracy and impact but its penetration is lacking, i saw on some show they shot one into a pool to test its abiility to penetrate water and the slugs broke up into small pieces almost instantly on contact with the water, the shards of metals lethal properties had diminished by 2' down, bascally if someone is shooting at you with an M-16 swim for your life :biggrin: i dont know if i agree with you, how ever, on the thought of the .22's ability to penetrate military body armor, kevlar may be woven but it is not easily "wiggled through" it is tightly woven and usually backed with a ceramic or metalic plate to prevent injury from impact, the combination of the two would most likely stop the .22 in its tracks (besides ive seen a vest in person that was shot with varrying caliber pistols raging from .22-.44mag the .22 hardly broke the vinyl covering on the vest because it was stopped so abruptly. well just my thoughts i mean no argument sir

RustyBattleship
02 Jun 06,, 07:07
For James The Great:

Your quote "the M-16 has very good acuracy and impact but its penetration is lacking, i saw on some show they shot one into a pool to test its abiility to penetrate water and the slugs broke up into small pieces almost instantly on contact with the water, the shards of metals lethal properties had diminished by 2' down, bascally if someone is shooting at you with an M-16 swim for your life "

Aha! You watch Myth Busters also.

jame$thegreat
05 Jun 06,, 20:47
For James The Great:

Your quote "the M-16 has very good acuracy and impact but its penetration is lacking, i saw on some show they shot one into a pool to test its abiility to penetrate water and the slugs broke up into small pieces almost instantly on contact with the water, the shards of metals lethal properties had diminished by 2' down, bascally if someone is shooting at you with an M-16 swim for your life "

Aha! You watch Myth Busters also.


that was the name of the show! i couldnt remember the show! yes i think that waa the show that it was, i really only watch it when its about projectiles (guns and archery) hehe :biggrin:

JBodnar39
06 Jun 06,, 14:33
For James The Great:

Your quote "the M-16 has very good acuracy and impact but its penetration is lacking, i saw on some show they shot one into a pool to test its abiility to penetrate water and the slugs broke up into small pieces almost instantly on contact with the water, the shards of metals lethal properties had diminished by 2' down, bascally if someone is shooting at you with an M-16 swim for your life "

Aha! You watch Myth Busters also.


The amount of penetration you get from a 5.56m depends a lot on the bullet construction. The heavier 62gr FMJ is a world above the 40gr softpoint when ti comes to penetration.

Achilles
22 Jul 08,, 21:16
The C 7 uses the 62 gr FMJ (with a larger powder charge), it has a few differances from the M16 (tighter rifling, a forward assist, and a cleaner Gas check system, to name a few) and we shot through 1/4' armoured steel plate, (like the rear Door on an APC) at under 50 meter with them. I would not suggest it as a first option but I most definately would not want to be behind that door either.

Stan187
22 Jul 08,, 22:07
The C 7 uses the 62 gr FMJ (with a larger powder charge), it has a few differances from the M16 (tighter rifling, a forward assist, and a cleaner Gas check system, to name a few) and we shot through 1/4' armoured steel plate, (like the rear Door on an APC) at under 50 meter with them. I would not suggest it as a first option but I most definately would not want to be behind that door either.

A modern varient of the M16 does not have the forward assist?

Achilles
22 Jul 08,, 23:04
I know, the Canadian Forces C7 is a little different from the M16 and it has the feature I listed or it did when I served, As did the C8 (the carbine version with a collapsible stock much like a colt commando).
EDIT - sorry I misunderstood your statement (I was at work and only briefly read it and they type my response bit by bit) and yes you are correct the latest versions I believe do, when I served they did not. And I think the new M4 still does.

Blue
23 Jul 08,, 04:56
I think some of you have lost sight of the title of this thread. The question refers to a PISTOL round, not a .50 caliber Browning Machine Gun round that John M. originally designed as an anti-tank round in 1917. I can't imagine anyone building a handgun ("pistol") big enough to chamber it. I CAN imagine there would be somebody out there stupid enough to try to fire it.

As for the S&W .500, .454 Casul and others they may be quite deadly but they are not normal ISSUE firearms. The powder layers in the Casul probably would not stay separated during many combat scenarios (diving into a ditch, etc.) and when mixed would blow the gun up.

There was mention of .22 long rifle being considered perhaps because you can carry a lot of rounds and weigh your enemy down with lead in a short period of time with just a "light rifle" (Remington or Winchester pump). The interesting thing is that the little .22 LR can have more penetrating capabilities of bullet resistant materials than larger bullets. The reason is because it is small enough to squeeze it's way between the weave (if the vest is not resin impregnated) and just slow enough to keep its shape. The higher velocity .223 of an M-16 might be stopped because its high velocity would flatten it out as it makes its first "wiggle" through the weave. But again, we are talking about a RIFLE cartridge, not a PISTOL cartridge.

So, let's put aside the specialty guns, wildcats and shoulder arms and take a look at what's on the shelf. My vote, in order of lethality is:
.25 ACP - Very poor. In some cases have actually bounced off a forehead.
.380 ACP - Fairly good and can cause enough hurt to change the scenario.
.22 Long Rifle - Fairly good penetration but more of a nuisance cartridge.
.22 Rim Fire Magnum - Can be a good day spoiler but not always lethal.
.38 Special - Fairly good but not much more penetration than a .380.
.38 ACP - Same as above but makes a great target pistol on a .45 frame.
.45 ACP - Good knock down round though not much penetration.
9 mm "Luger" - Good penetration, large capacity magazines, but little knockdown power.
.357 Magnum - Good for all-around depending on what kind of bullet you use.
.40 S&W - Good for all-around plus large magazine capacity advantage.
.44 Magnum - Really good. It's taken down Grizzly Bears.
.41 Magnum - Ranks up there with the .44 but with a tad more penetration.
.44 Auto Mag - Come up with a double stack magazine and you have a winner. Extend the Thompson M-1928 A1 receiver and modify it for .44 Auto Mag and you have an unbeatable street fighter. Good rundown Rusty. Why is some here talking about .50bmg and .223. those are rifle rounds that some nut decided to shoot out of a pistol. They are not pistol rounds. My practical choices would be .45 acp, .45 LC, and .44 mag. The leader now I would reckon would be the S&W .500 mag.

BTW, different slugs and loads are measured scientifically in a percentage of the wound cavity and survivability factor of one shot in different areas of the body. I'll see what data I can come up with.

Proyas
23 Jul 08,, 05:31
The deadliest pistol round would be the largest, highest velocity bullet you could legally fire from a handgun, meaning it would probably be one of those specialty cartridges that are used in bear guns.

Maxor
23 Jul 08,, 05:55
OK I want to have a duel whine here.

First and actually relevent, by deadliest do we mean the pistol round that has killed the most people? In that case its gotta be 9mm parabellum. Or do you mean the round that has the highest probability of death on wounding? In that case one of the massive specialty pistol rounds. Or do you mean the round that has the best kill per round commercially made %? Or some other odd factor reasoning?

Second Can I comb through dead threads and revive them to? Achilles I want to welcome you to the boards but if you are answering a vague question posed more than 2 years previously the person asking it probably isn't checking on it and or doesn't care anymore. Then again if you want to go through all the really old threads and answer all the questions in them I'm cool with that and would actually personally send you a sawbuck. (just for the sheer perversity of it.

jame$thegreat
23 Jul 08,, 06:52
I would go with .45ACP. On a target with no ballistic protection it would most likely be one of the most effective rounds to use.

Or a .40 S&W with Hydashock HP's for a combination of penetration, stopping power and capacity.

Achilles
23 Jul 08,, 15:13
Second Can I comb through dead threads and revive them to? Achilles I want to welcome you to the boards but if you are answering a vague question posed more than 2 years previously the person asking it probably isn't checking on it and or doesn't care anymore. Then again if you want to go through all the really old threads and answer all the questions in them I'm cool with that and would actually personally send you a sawbuck. (just for the sheer perversity of it.

OK fair enough :-) and sorry I did. I am new to the board and was looking through for topics of interest. I'll pay closer attention to the last posted date. This one just look interesting. And I'd just watched that episod of Myth Busters 2 nights before on the Discovery channel. So I guess thats why this seemed more current. But of course it was a rerun :-)

NishanbazKhan
07 Aug 08,, 17:47
a .45 caliber is the deadliest pistol round for autos and .44 mag is deadliest for revolvers, outside of hunting and specialty cartridges,

omon
07 Aug 08,, 18:34
there is another factor, if i have to shoot at night, i wouldn,t want any magnums, or hot loads, cuz the more powder is unburned the bigger muzzle flash will blind me, and if i see nothing, i,m am easy target, i shot .38sp +p 2" s&W once at night, the fire ball was like 4-5 feet in diameter, plus the ring of burning gases between barrel and the cylinder, for few sec i couldn,t see anything, my 9mm sa doesn,t flash nearly as much, during the day it makes no difference, but you never know when you need to use the gun. i,d take bigger caliber mild load over smaller caliber hot load anyday and especially night.
i,d say .45 is the best all around cartrige. and pared with glock g36, you can,t go wrong.

NishanbazKhan
07 Aug 08,, 20:41
isn't the glock 36 a single stack? I'm partial to the 1911, a good Kimber or Springfield will set you back more than a glock but if you're a good shot you can put rounds on target at 50 yards something that will put a smile on your face ;)
Kimbers in particular are among the finest .45 caliber pistols you can buy

omon
07 Aug 08,, 20:48
true, but pistols aren,t usually used as a sharpshooter weapon for 50 yards, (unless it is a competetive shooting), more like within 10-15 yards,
yes g36 is a single stack, it deffinatly doesn,t have accurasy and feel of 1911, but 1911 doesnt have compactness and lightness of g36.

Blue
08 Aug 08,, 04:01
I'd just watched that episod of Myth Busters 2 nights before on the Discovery channel. So I guess thats why this seemed more current. But of course it was a rerun :-) Achilles, I find mythbusters highly entertaining and "mildly informative":rolleyes:. Honestly, just about anything they do with firearms is bunk. I have personally offered to go on the show and demonstrate some of the firearms related items that they call busted while I know they are not because I have either witnessed or done them. I.e, the sniper shot down the scope of the counter-sniper. Seen it, did it, would do it for them....at 100yds! If they wanted to test something like that, why not get a trained sniper intead of a rube that has NO experience? Pure entertainment that dabbles in science, IMO.:rolleyes:

NishanbazKhan
08 Aug 08,, 07:12
true, but pistols aren,t usually used as a sharpshooter weapon for 50 yards, (unless it is a competetive shooting), more like within 10-15 yards,
yes g36 is a single stack, it deffinatly doesn,t have accurasy and feel of 1911, but 1911 doesnt have compactness and lightness of g36.

you've never carried a colt officers model or a Kimber Pro-Carry have you?
50 yards isn't sharp shooting ranges at all, any pistol trainer worth their guff has you qualify at 25 yards. The pistol ranges at the gun clubs I've been to have a 15 yard and 25 yard target; nothing wrong with doubling that range. lol you make it sound like competitive shooting is something to scoff at, if u win competitions chances are you are going to down bad guys better and faster too.

omon
08 Aug 08,, 14:49
you've never carried a colt officers model or a Kimber Pro-Carry have you?
50 yards isn't sharp shooting ranges at all, any pistol trainer worth their guff has you qualify at 25 yards. The pistol ranges at the gun clubs I've been to have a 15 yard and 25 yard target; nothing wrong with doubling that range. lol you make it sound like competitive shooting is something to scoff at, if u win competitions chances are you are going to down bad guys better and faster too.

no i have not, but i was talking about full size 1911,
neither i,m a pistol traner or competitive shooter, i shoot for fun, i hang paper plate at 25yd, and if i hit it, good, if i hit it close to the center, or right in it, even better.

NishanbazKhan
08 Aug 08,, 16:34
no i have not, but i was talking about full size 1911,
neither i,m a pistol traner or competitive shooter, i shoot for fun, i hang paper plate at 25yd, and if i hit it, good, if i hit it close to the center, or right in it, even better.
if you are going to compare apples to oranges then you'll just go around in circles lol a G36 is comparable to a pro-carry as they are both compact, a G21 is the comparison to the full-size they are both rather bulky. Most CC holders don't bother with a full-size anything for obvious reasons but a Kimber Pro-Carry is still a 1911 even if it's only got a 3" barrel

omon
08 Aug 08,, 16:38
if you are going to compare apples to oranges then you'll just go around in circles lol a G36 is comparable to a pro-carry as they are both compact, a G21 is the comparison to the full-size they are both rather bulky. Most CC holders don't bother with a full-size anything for obvious reasons but a Kimber Pro-Carry is still a 1911 even if it's only got a 3" barrel

ok, fair enough, i'll rephrase:
i,d say .45 is the best all around cartrige. and pared with glock g36, or Kimber Pro-Carry , you can,t go wrong.

sounds better now.

NishanbazKhan
08 Aug 08,, 16:44
ok, fair enough, i'll rephrase:
i,d say .45 is the best all around cartrige. and pared with glock g36, or Kimber Pro-Carry , you can,t go wrong.

sounds better now.
:cool:

AndreiDimitri
18 Sep 08,, 18:39
H&K USP .45 Super.
Or maybe 10mm Auto.
Doubletap ammo,200 gr.Stops a bear they say :|

ace16807
18 Sep 08,, 23:21
I would say hollow points or black talons.

agreed. Except black talons go by Ranger SXT due to legal issues and what not... People whining how the round is ultrahazardous... well duh. It's designed specifically to kill/incapacitate the target. Either way, being hit by one of them seems to be a more than painful experience.

GraniteForge
19 Sep 08,, 00:54
agreed. Except black talons go by Ranger SXT due to legal issues and what not... People whining how the round is ultrahazardous... well duh. It's designed specifically to kill/incapacitate the target. Either way, being hit by one of them seems to be a more than painful experience.

There were never any "legal issues" concerning Black Talons.

However, today, they represent a previous generation of technology. Gold Dot, Golden Sabre, some EFMJ, and other bullets all perform better, and more consistently, than Black Talons (or Ranger SXTs) do.

ace16807
19 Sep 08,, 01:27
There were never any "legal issues" concerning Black Talons.

However, today, they represent a previous generation of technology. Gold Dot, Golden Sabre, some EFMJ, and other bullets all perform better, and more consistently, than Black Talons (or Ranger SXTs) do.

Well, the legal issues weren't actually legitimate. People did try to sue, though they didn't get anywhere with it.

toemag
19 Sep 08,, 08:24
What do you all believe are the most deadly pistol rounds? Be careful about saying "according to......": I'm going to get an ER surgeons input on this one.


I'd go with a .38 wad cutter.

Please answer the question that you posed to us as the curiosity is killing me

Tony

Blue
19 Sep 08,, 14:36
There were never any "legal issues" concerning Black Talons.

However, today, they represent a previous generation of technology. Gold Dot, Golden Sabre, some EFMJ, and other bullets all perform better, and more consistently, than Black Talons (or Ranger SXTs) do.


Well, the legal issues weren't actually legitimate. People did try to sue, though they didn't get anywhere with it.

IIRC, the black talons only gained attention after some nut shot up an office with a couple of 9mms' loaded up with them. Then the idiot of a surgeon general we had at the time called them a more deadly round than others:confused:(than you know....nerf bullets):rolleyes: There was then a whole anti-gun, anti-black talon movement where some other geniuses in congress tried to get them banned.

Blue
19 Sep 08,, 14:39
I'd go with a .38 wad cutter.
Tony Which is great if you want to kill some wads!:)):))

toemag
19 Sep 08,, 20:56
Which is great if you want to kill some wads!:)):))

Yo Big E, :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: I'll have to sort my PC spell checker out.

I tried figuring it out on availability and amount of what type of weapon and calibre most people in the US of A might have in their house, .22lr yeah probably more of them out there, but no-one would really want to use one in a lethal force self defence situation, then there is the .45 ACP or long colt, okay more the ACP, but little old laddies who don't get to the range wouldn't want one for HD etc. I gave the 9mm .357 & .44 magnums a quick thought, then dismissed that for the obvious reasons, then the .40S&W or the .357 sig, which are still somewhat exotic so I arrived at .38 Special revolvers (mod 36 "2 snubby) easy to use, conceal, and at the range that it's designed to be used at more than adequate, don't even need any of those fangle hydrojacketedsabotselfmeltingdisintegratingseeyoui nthemorgue ammo. I have not forgotten the .25 or .32 ammo I just don't think they are still in fashion.

Tony

Dreadnought
19 Sep 08,, 21:56
Would have considered 22 cal for sure. One of the most polpular Sat night specials around here. Especially ones like the Scorpion.;)

Or the ever popular dumb dumb ball which fragments upon contact.

But IMO the most deadliest pistol round is the one that finds its mark the very first time.:))

GraniteForge
20 Sep 08,, 03:54
Yo Big E, :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: I'll have to sort my PC spell checker out.

I tried figuring it out on availability and amount of what type of weapon and calibre most people in the US of A might have in their house, .22lr yeah probably more of them out there, but no-one would really want to use one in a lethal force self defence situation, then there is the .45 ACP or long colt, okay more the ACP, but little old laddies who don't get to the range wouldn't want one for HD etc. I gave the 9mm .357 & .44 magnums a quick thought, then dismissed that for the obvious reasons, then the .40S&W or the .357 sig, which are still somewhat exotic so I arrived at .38 Special revolvers (mod 36 "2 snubby) easy to use, conceal, and at the range that it's designed to be used at more than adequate, don't even need any of those fangle hydrojacketedsabotselfmeltingdisintegratingseeyoui nthemorgue ammo. I have not forgotten the .25 or .32 ammo I just don't think they are still in fashion.

Tony

A lot of people own .22 handguns, but not very many are thought of as defensive tools, or kept ready to be used that way.

I do see different .32 calibers at the range (mostly .32 ACP and .32 H&R Magnum, but also .32 Colts and S&Ws), and a whole lot of .25s.

Also, there are a surprisingly large number of people carrying unusual calibers, such as .32 rimfire, 9 x 21mm, .38 Super, .38 ACP, .50 AE, and cap-and-ball black powder guns.

toemag
20 Sep 08,, 08:36
A lot of people own .22 handguns, but not very many are thought of as defensive tools, or kept ready to be used that way.

I do see different .32 calibers at the range (mostly .32 ACP and .32 H&R Magnum, but also .32 Colts and S&Ws), and a whole lot of .25s.

Also, there are a surprisingly large number of people carrying unusual calibers, such as .32 rimfire, 9 x 21mm, .38 Super, .38 ACP, .50 AE, and cap-and-ball black powder guns.

:eek:WOW:eek:.

Would the originator of this thread please be so kind as to come and let us know what the answer is..

Tony

Blue
20 Sep 08,, 17:08
Yo Big E, :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: I'll have to sort my PC spell checker out. ...........so I arrived at .38 Special revolvers (mod 36 "2 snubby) easy to use, conceal, and at the range that it's designed to be used at more than adequate, don't even need any of those fangle hydrojacketedsabotselfmeltingdisintegratingseeyoui nthemorgue ammo.

TonyROTFL:biggrin::biggrin:

Actually your about right. Here's about how it breaks down among the concealed carry holders I know personally. Most men with lots of shooting experience opt for a .45acp of some kind. Surprising to me is the number that carry 1911 variations. Small polymer guns are next in popularity there. Just a few I have met carry a 9mm. Most women who are dedicated carriers, usually have a .38 revolver. For those with auto experience, .380 acp is popular. Surprising to me is the popularity of the walther P-22. I think it has been the most commonly carried by women who are not carrying a revolver. Small and light with a 10rnd mag, loaded with some hot HPs, and you have a decent, concealable handgun. That .22 LR will kill just as dead as a .45 and a plus might be less mess to clean up:))

GraniteForge
20 Sep 08,, 18:19
The shooters that really give me a chuckle are guys who show up at the range with a whole bag full of .22s, .25s, and/or .32 ACPs, saying that they use them all for carry, because guns are unreliable and jam a lot.

When you look at their guns, none of them cost more than $100 new, they are very poorly maintained, and he is probably using some old lubed ammo from the 1930s that he "found in the barn."

I try to suggest that if they get one decent gun, take proper care of it, and shoot fresh, quality ammo, they won't have to own a dozen little jam-o-matics, but they rarely pay heed.

And Sniper, the biggest messes I have ever seen weren't from .45s, they have all been from .357 magnums. But you just have to call Servepro (or do we call Servicemaster?). Anyway, they'll clean it up.

Blue
20 Sep 08,, 18:35
[QUOTE=GraniteForge;548635]The shooters that really give me a chuckle are guys who show up at the range with a whole bag full of .22s, .25s, and/or .32 ACPs, saying that they use them all for carry, because guns are unreliable and jam a lot. If we could only legislate common sense!


When you look at their guns, none of them cost more than $100 new, they are very poorly maintained, and he is probably using some old lubed ammo from the 1930s that he "found in the barn." I too am amused by someone that will spend thousands on luxuries and skimp on the life assurance equipment.


And Sniper, the biggest messes I have ever seen weren't from .45s, they have all been from .357 magnums. I stand corrrected. I definitely concur that the .357 is one nasty little mother. At distance, I've seen .45 not penetrate through a body where .357 does the job. That is one trait I do like with the .45 though. For a self defense round, it tends to not over penetrate, keeps down collateral damages.

Triple C
21 Sep 08,, 10:28
What are WABers' favorite 45s, if any? Most polls on other websites on the subject yield an even split between USP-45 and M1911.

toemag
21 Sep 08,, 13:57
What are WABers' favorite 45s, if any? Most polls on other websites on the subject yield an even split between USP-45 and M1911.

I'd have to go for the M2 Grease gun or a Tommy gun,:biggrin:.

Tony

sappersgt
21 Sep 08,, 16:41
Also, there are a surprisingly large number of people carrying unusual calibers, such as .32 rimfire, 9 x 21mm, .38 Super, .38 ACP, .50 AE, and cap-and-ball black powder guns.

I missed this one, did you say cap and ball black powder guns? At the range? Do you know if any shoot modern style bullets (instead of plain round lead)?

GraniteForge
21 Sep 08,, 17:22
I missed this one, did you say cap and ball black powder guns? At the range? Do you know if any shoot modern style bullets (instead of plain round lead)?

An interesting question. No, I don't know any that shoot modern bullets in their cap-and-ball carry guns, but its not that some haven't tried to load them.

I am told that typical chamber and barrel diameters do not equate well to standard bullet sizes, even soft-cast, and that the rifling is generally too faint to properly stabilize a modern bullet. I guess its pretty common for the chambers in a black powder revolver to be of different diameters; not a problem with a patched, soft lead ball, but not a good thing with a true bullet.

As to the powder, of the few people I have talked to who use one of these handguns for daily carry, they all use Pyrodex or other substitute, not black powder.

sappersgt
21 Sep 08,, 20:02
An interesting question. No, I don't know any that shoot modern bullets in their cap-and-ball carry guns, but its not that some haven't tried to load them.

I am told that typical chamber and barrel diameters do not equate well to standard bullet sizes, even soft-cast, and that the rifling is generally too faint to properly stabilize a modern bullet. I guess its pretty common for the chambers in a black powder revolver to be of different diameters; not a problem with a patched, soft lead ball, but not a good thing with a true bullet.

As to the powder, of the few people I have talked to who use one of these handguns for daily carry, they all use Pyrodex or other substitute, not black powder.


Black powder handguns for daily carry. Intriguing idea! Did they give the reasons why? I would think that you would be able to find a bullet size to match. I've been told that most replica black powder pistols have distinctive rifling.:cool:

GraniteForge
21 Sep 08,, 20:27
Black powder handguns for daily carry. Intriguing idea! Did they give the reasons why?

Yes.

I have run across just a couple of hard-core cowboy-era reenactors, and one bona fide "mountain man" (lives in a cabin he built, lives solely by hunting, fishing, and trapping) who carry cap-and-ball handguns because they will have nothing to do with modern firearms.

But most of the people who daily carry these guns do it because they hold a particular legal/political theory. They theorize that, since the guns do not use a "modern" ignition and ammuntion system, they are not handguns, legally, and therefore may be carried concealed without a permit or license.

sappersgt
21 Sep 08,, 22:08
Yes.

I have run across just a couple of hard-core cowboy-era reenactors, and one bona fide "mountain man" (lives in a cabin he built, lives solely by hunting, fishing, and trapping) who carry cap-and-ball handguns because they will have nothing to do with modern firearms.

But most of the people who daily carry these guns do it because they hold a particular legal/political theory. They theorize that, since the guns do not use a "modern" ignition and ammuntion system, they are not handguns, legally, and therefore may be carried concealed without a permit or license.

Like I said an intriguing thought. I suppose they would qualify as a concealed weapon if not a firearm. If you really needed to use it the difference would be a small price to pay.

I suppose it's along the same lines as those .410 adaptors for flare guns some boat owners traveling in Mexican waters carry.

Blue
22 Sep 08,, 00:58
Yes.

I have run across just a couple of hard-core cowboy-era reenactors, and one bona fide "mountain man" (lives in a cabin he built, lives solely by hunting, fishing, and trapping) who carry cap-and-ball handguns because they will have nothing to do with modern firearms.

But most of the people who daily carry these guns do it because they hold a particular legal/political theory. They theorize that, since the guns do not use a "modern" ignition and ammuntion system, they are not handguns, legally, and therefore may be carried concealed without a permit or license. Amazingly enough I have met one guy who carried a black powder revolver. He was an old man that cited he did it because he could carry wherever and whenever he wanted without hassle. He rode a bicycle everywhere he went and usually carried a couple more in the little basket trailer he pulled behind it.

Triple C
22 Sep 08,, 02:38
I'd have to go for the M2 Grease gun or a Tommy gun,:biggrin:.

Tony

Automatic 45" would blast somebody to kingdom come! :eek:

GraniteForge
22 Sep 08,, 06:21
Automatic 45" would blast somebody to kingdom come! :eek:

Eh. They don't usually hold all that much ammo, and they all run at a relatively low cyclic rate. So remember: short bursts. press and release, press and release, nice and easy. lead the target slightly, press and release.

You want to "blast somebody to kingdom come" with automatic fire from a shoulder weapon, try an Atchisson or Daewoo 12 gauge. They are serious fun; I wish I could afford one.

Kalvan
22 Sep 08,, 18:47
What are WABers' favorite 45s, if any? Most polls on other websites on the subject yield an even split between USP-45 and M1911.

I carried a 1911 Govt model for years. Switched to an XD Tactical a few months ago.

gunnut
22 Sep 08,, 19:13
A lot of people own .22 handguns, but not very many are thought of as defensive tools, or kept ready to be used that way.

I do see different .32 calibers at the range (mostly .32 ACP and .32 H&R Magnum, but also .32 Colts and S&Ws), and a whole lot of .25s.

Also, there are a surprisingly large number of people carrying unusual calibers, such as .32 rimfire, 9 x 21mm, .38 Super, .38 ACP, .50 AE, and cap-and-ball black powder guns.

Interesting. Are those the "Saturday night specials" that were all the rage back in the 1990s? Lorcin, Raven, Davis...etc?

California legislators came up with a catchy name to demonize these entrepreneurs, the Ring of Fire, since all of them belong to the same extended family. They were driven out of business by California (all of them operated in southern California) with laws that dictated "safety" standards and a "drop test" :eek:.

I think they are nice little curiosities but should never, ever, be a carry gun.

I always wanted a little 2" 357 magnum as a carry gun....if I could carry. My local store started to carry Taurus revolvers again and I might pick up a M605 just to play with.

GraniteForge
22 Sep 08,, 19:53
Interesting. Are those the "Saturday night specials" that were all the rage back in the 1990s? Lorcin, Raven, Davis...etc?

I think they are nice little curiosities but should never, ever, be a carry gun.



For the most part, yes. I do also see a few old Browning, Steyr, Colt, Astra, etc. "pocket pistols" in that group, although the examples I would include in this group are those that have been poorly maintained and are barely functional.

gunnut
22 Sep 08,, 20:10
For the most part, yes. I do also see a few old Browning, Steyr, Colt, Astra, etc. "pocket pistols" in that group, although the examples I would include in this group are those that have been poorly maintained and are barely functional.

How can any serious gun owner, one who carries no less, let his carry piece fall into disrepair? A gun that doesn't work is more dangerous to the owner than not carry.

omon
22 Sep 08,, 23:52
you really don,t want a .22, .32acp, even .380 if your attacker is high on coke, e, or something similar, you can,t be sure you get him in the head, with a first shot, other than that he won,t even feel those rounds hit him, .45 otoh, will push him away, even if he doesn,t feel the hit. but best thing within 10-15ft, is a taser, it will disable muslle control, no matter how high and on what he is.

gunnut
23 Sep 08,, 06:05
An interesting question. No, I don't know any that shoot modern bullets in their cap-and-ball carry guns, but its not that some haven't tried to load them.

I am told that typical chamber and barrel diameters do not equate well to standard bullet sizes, even soft-cast, and that the rifling is generally too faint to properly stabilize a modern bullet. I guess its pretty common for the chambers in a black powder revolver to be of different diameters; not a problem with a patched, soft lead ball, but not a good thing with a true bullet.

As to the powder, of the few people I have talked to who use one of these handguns for daily carry, they all use Pyrodex or other substitute, not black powder.

Sir, I have been doing some research in this area. :biggrin:

This guy
MidwayUSA - Pietta 1858 Remington Steel Frame Black Powder Revolver 44 Caliber 8" Blue Barrel (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=258917)

with this guy
MidwayUSA - R & D Drop-In Conversion Cylinder 44 Caliber Pietta 1858 Remington Steel Frame Black Powder Revolver 45 Colt (Long Colt) 6-Round Blue (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=292272)

will be able to fire 45LC loads.

And this guy
MidwayUSA - Pietta 1858 Remington New Model Navy Steel Frame Black Powder Revolver 36 Caliber 6-3/8" Blue Barrel (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=311355)

with this guy
MidwayUSA - R & D Drop-In Conversion Cylinder 36 Caliber Pietta 1858 New Model Navy Steel Frame Black Powder Revolver 38 Special, 38 Long Colt 6-Round Blue (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=493957)

will be able to fire 38 special loads.

Of course the 38 special is really .358" so it won't fit properly in the 36 cal barrel. You will need to use a modern day mini-ball to make it catch the rifling.

GraniteForge
23 Sep 08,, 18:02
Sir, I have been doing some research in this area. :biggrin:

This guy
MidwayUSA - Pietta 1858 Remington Steel Frame Black Powder Revolver 44 Caliber 8" Blue Barrel (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=258917)

with this guy
MidwayUSA - R & D Drop-In Conversion Cylinder 44 Caliber Pietta 1858 Remington Steel Frame Black Powder Revolver 45 Colt (Long Colt) 6-Round Blue (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=292272)

will be able to fire 45LC loads.

And this guy
MidwayUSA - Pietta 1858 Remington New Model Navy Steel Frame Black Powder Revolver 36 Caliber 6-3/8" Blue Barrel (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=311355)

with this guy
MidwayUSA - R & D Drop-In Conversion Cylinder 36 Caliber Pietta 1858 New Model Navy Steel Frame Black Powder Revolver 38 Special, 38 Long Colt 6-Round Blue (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=493957)

will be able to fire 38 special loads.

Of course the 38 special is really .358" so it won't fit properly in the 36 cal barrel. You will need to use a modern day mini-ball to make it catch the rifling.

Its certainly possible.

However, I am told that it is not at all unusual for guns from makers such as Pietta or Army San Marcos to have chambers of different sizes. Its not an issue with patched balls, but bullets require more precision. Each chamber must be individually miked in both dimensions, then reamed or lapped to consistency.

GraniteForge
23 Sep 08,, 18:09
you really don,t want a .22, .32acp, even .380 if your attacker is high on coke, e, or something similar, you can,t be sure you get him in the head, with a first shot, other than that he won,t even feel those rounds hit him, .45 otoh, will push him away, even if he doesn,t feel the hit. but best thing within 10-15ft, is a taser, it will disable muslle control, no matter how high and on what he is.

A 185 or 230 gr. bullet moving 870 fps will not "push him away." The projectile doesn't have enough energy.

Tasers can be very effective, but there is no guarantee. And remember that Tasers can do some real damage: I have seen barbs knock out teeth, and they can tear the scrotum or other sensitive tissue. You do that sort of injury to someone, you are sometimes better to just kill them from the standpoint of future legal action.

jame$thegreat
23 Sep 08,, 23:58
A 185 or 230 gr. bullet moving 870 fps will not "push him away." The projectile doesn't have enough energy.


The result of a center mass hit with a .45ACP round will, however, be massive shock. It will with out a doubt drop the perp' regardless of what drug he is under the influence of.

gunnut
24 Sep 08,, 00:17
The result of a center mass hit with a .45ACP round will, however, be massive shock. It will with out a doubt drop the perp' regardless of what drug he is under the influence of.

No. Simple physics. The energy released into the target must be less than the energy absorbed by the shooter. The shock comes from the damage done to the tissue. A big dude on PCP probably won't care much for the damage except for hits to major joints, like the hip.

Blue
24 Sep 08,, 00:39
The result of a center mass hit with a .45ACP round will, however, be massive shock. It will with out a doubt drop the perp' regardless of what drug he is under the influence of. Well...uhm...not exactly, and not everytime. Speaking with some firsthand experience here, most folks have never actually seen someone get shot. The only thing they have to go on is movies, and I have yet to see one that accurately depicts a shootout. You should never count on the first shot dropping a suspect, because it rarely does. A buddy of mine was involved in a police shooting a couple years ago with a cranked up gunman. They were in an open street and alley setting in midday. IIRC they where pursuing and exchanging fire. I think 9 officers fired btwn 50 or 60 rounds and hit the suspect about 26 times. I think the final score was 9 rounds in the upper torso and the third shot to the head ended it. All police where using .40 S&W. Suspect was dressed in jeans and T-shirt and emptied a 9mm semi auto twice before succumbing to his wounds.

There is only one place to guarantee a one shot one kill on a human. We used to call this effect "instant ragdoll". It could be used on a hostage holder, with a very high probability of survival for the hostage, if they where being held with a gun to them. We trained hard to make this shot if we ever had to. It requires a head shot and the bullet must intersect the base of the brain at the top of the spinal chord. It instantly stops all autonomic and motor functions. there is a small window of opportunity for this shot and it must be very accurate. We trained with special targets to simulate this shot from the front, back and side of the head. An impact in any other area of the body, even in the head, may not stop the bad guy. The only time I have ever seen anyone get "blown back" was a center mass, 3" 12 gauge, 000 buckshot, at 3 ft away. It killed the suspect by blowing a decent size hole right in his chest(and out his back), and the energy from the muzzle blast knocked him back about 6 ft. However, it looked nothing like depicted in any movie I have ever seen. It looke more like he tripped and stepped like being pushed, not flying off the ground and hitting a wall:rolleyes: or something to the dramatic effect.

gunnut
24 Sep 08,, 01:37
Hey man, I saw it in a movie so it must be true...:biggrin:

Back to this "ragdoll" shot. Has it ever been successfully employed? I haven't seen it on Spike TV yet.

Triple C
24 Sep 08,, 03:35
Anyone know the precise medical definition of going into shock? Is this a result of blood loss and oxigen cut-off?

omon
24 Sep 08,, 03:47
Hey man, I saw it in a movie so it must be true...:biggrin:

Back to this "ragdoll" shot. Has it ever been successfully employed? I haven't seen it on Spike TV yet.

i have, military channel, they showed exactly the same thing 7thsfsniper said, base of the brain.

jame$thegreat
24 Sep 08,, 05:05
No. Simple physics. The energy released into the target must be less than the energy absorbed by the shooter. The shock comes from the damage done to the tissue. A big dude on PCP probably won't care much for the damage except for hits to major joints, like the hip.

The amount of tissue damage and immediate bleeding associated with a large, slow moving projectile will be enough to cause even a large guy using PCP to fall dead. Think of a large deer hit in the vitals with a hunting round, the shock drops them almost instantly regardless of what the deer does or does not feel.

Keep in mind, I am not saying that one round fired out of a pistol chambered in .45ACP will drop any man that ever lived under any circumstances, what I am saying is that the round is designed to pack a punch and you can be pretty confident that when that gun goes "bang" you can expect the results to be pretty devastating. If they still are not to your liking, pull the trigger again.

GraniteForge
24 Sep 08,, 05:20
The amount of tissue damage and immediate bleeding associated with a large, slow moving projectile will be enough to cause even a large guy using PCP to fall dead. Think of a large deer hit in the vitals with a hunting round, the shock drops them almost instantly regardless of what the deer does or does not feel.

Keep in mind, I am not saying that one round fired out of a pistol chambered in .45ACP will drop any man that ever lived under any circumstances, what I am saying is that the round is designed to pack a punch and you can be pretty confident that when that gun goes "bang" you can expect the results to be pretty devastating. If they still are not to your liking, pull the trigger again.

There are no magic bullets. People rarely "fall dead" after being shot, no matter what you hit them with, or their physical condition.

Remember that when animals are shot, they don't know or understand what just happened to them. Many people, on the other hand -- especially criminals or others with experience of violence -- will understand. And many of those also understand that being shot doesn't necessarily mean that you die, and that even if you will, it won't be right away, so you have a good chance to keep fighting, kill the suckwad that just shot you, and still get patched up and live to tell the story.

Never bet your life on the bad guy "falling dead."

Blue
24 Sep 08,, 13:23
Hey man, I saw it in a movie so it must be true...:biggrin:

Back to this "ragdoll" shot. Has it ever been successfully employed? I haven't seen it on Spike TV yet. Yes, many times, I'm sure. I don't recall all the details, but one of my instructors told a first hand account of a hostage situation where an assailant would expose himself periodically holding an uzi type weapon to the head of a hostage, using them for a shield, while making demands. After entry teams where in place the sniper was given the greenlight for a shot. From a position about a block away, through a plateglass window, the sniper executed the perfect shot. Not a scratch on the hostage. Unfortunately, it doesn't always happen that way.

toemag
24 Sep 08,, 19:09
I was always told the shot in the cranium does the trick every time:eek:.

Tony

gunnut
24 Sep 08,, 19:20
I was always told the shot in the cranium does the trick every time:eek:.

Tony

But doesn't that still produces muscle spasm...sometimes? The guy may be dead instantaneously, but rigamortis or whatever could still tighten the grip. That's bad if the guy has a finger on the trigger.

A shot on the 3rd vertibrae will cut off all nerve impulses thus "ragdolling" the perp. At least that's what I gathered from sniper's post.

omon
24 Sep 08,, 19:35
why not shoot at the gun?

gunnut
24 Sep 08,, 19:39
why not shoot at the gun?

I saw that one on Spike TV. But if there's a hostage, shooting at the gun may result in unwanted shrapnel damage. Plus the perp might have a back up weapon to kill/harm the hostage.

Kalvan
24 Sep 08,, 21:01
I was always told the shot in the cranium does the trick every time
It's not just "the cranium" but the cerebellum, AKA the "R complex", which controls all the autonomic functions. It's small and at the top of the spine roughly on a line with the eye and ear holes.

jame$thegreat
25 Sep 08,, 00:43
There are no magic bullets. People rarely "fall dead" after being shot, no matter what you hit them with, or their physical condition.

Never bet your life on the bad guy "falling dead."

Once again, I don't literally mean an instant rag doll effect like Sniper is describing. What I do mean is that the shock associated with a few rounds of .45ACP ammunition will more often than not cause enough shock in a short amount of time to physically make it impossible for a human being to continue to function let alone fight.


Remember that when animals are shot, they don't know or understand what just happened to them.

They still have the same "fight or flight" instinct that humans do. This is, however, overrided by an incapacity to do either as a result of a rifle round to the vitals.

Shamus
25 Sep 08,, 01:41
Excerpt from a very interesting article.Worth a look.

Newgard, Ken, M.D.: "The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation." Wound Ballistics Review, 1(3): 12-17; 1992.

This article examines the physiological mechanisms of the human body to provide a medical answer to the question: How many times is it necessary to shoot an assailant before he is incapacitated?

Newgard reviews the physiological mechanisms of gunshot wound trauma incapacitation:

"The only method of reliably stopping a human with a handgun is to decrease the functioning capability of the central nervous system (CNS) and specifically, the brain and cervical spinal cord. There are two ways to accomplish this goal: 1) direct trauma to the CNS tissue resulting in tissue destruction and 2) lack of oxygen to the brain caused by bleeding and loss of blood pressure."

Newgard discusses the body's blood loss sensory and compensatory mechanisms (venous constriction, increased cardiac output and vascular fluid transfer), and the degree in which these mechanisms respond to, and compensate for, hemorrhagic shock. He reviews clinical tests of human tolerance for blood loss, which "demonstrate that adequate blood pressure can be maintained with minimal symptoms until a 20% blood deficit was reached." Newgard provides the following example:

"For an average 70 kg (155 lb.)* male the cardiac output will be 5.5 liters (~1.4 gallons) per minute. His blood volume will be 60 ml per kg (0.92 fl. oz. per lb.) or 4200 ml (~1.1 gallons). Assuming his cardiac output can double under stress (as his heart beats faster and with greater force). his aortic blood flow can reach 11 liters (~2.8 gallons) per minute. If one assumes a wound that totally severs the thoracic aorta, then it would take 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. This is the minimum time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume.... This analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain, that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.

"Most wounds will not bleed at this rate because: 1) bullets usually do not transect (completely sever) blood vessels, 2) as blood pressure falls, the bleeding slows, 3) surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss, 4) the bullet may only penetrate smaller blood vessels, 5) bullets can disrupt tissue without hitting any major blood vessels resulting in a slow ooze rather than rapid bleeding, and 6) the above mentioned compensatory mechanisms."

Newgard investigates the survival times of persons who received fatal gunshot wounds to determine if the person who was shot had enough time to shoot back. He concludes:

"Instantaneous incapacitation is not possible with non central nervous system wounds and does not always occur with central nervous system wounds. The intrinsic physiologic compensatory mechanisms of humans makes it difficult to inhibit a determined, aggressive person's activities until he has lost enough blood to cause hemorrhagic shock. The body's compensatory mechanisms designed to save a person's life after sustaining a bleeding wound, allow a person to continue to be a threat after receiving an eventually fatal wound, thus necessitating more rounds being fired in order to incapacitate or stop the assailant."

Blue
25 Sep 08,, 03:58
It's not just "the cranium" but the cerebellum, AKA the "R complex", which controls all the autonomic functions. It's small and at the top of the spine roughly on a line with the eye and ear holes. Bingo!!! You've done sone research?

Blue
25 Sep 08,, 04:10
Shamus,

Good post! Spot on!

Triple C
25 Sep 08,, 04:18
Huh, interesting. My elementary school teacher who was recently at the time dischargedd from the army told the kids (a.k.a. moi) in blithe spirits that one must eliminate sentries quietly he should stab the enemy in the back of the neck where the spine joins the skull. Brain stem. Note that this was a long ago and he was a regular conscript grunt that chose to go to NCO school. Suffice to say that they were not given suppressers.

James, while I agree that for pistol calibers .45 ACP is good, I do not think a bullet coming out of the end of a pistol can do anything close to ensuring incapcitation even with a good hit. The difference between man and deer is that humans are carnivorous. There is a lot more fight in humans. People had been known to fight until they physically die. The quantity of blood loss required to induce shock need a very big hole, and even rifles had failed before.

Blue
25 Sep 08,, 04:23
[QUOTE=jame$thegreat;550533]Once again, I don't literally mean an instant rag doll effect like Sniper is describing. What I do mean is that the shock associated with a few rounds of .45ACP ammunition will more often than not cause enough shock in a short amount of time to physically make it impossible for a human being to continue to function let alone fight. Yes, good point, and one would think..............




They still have the same "fight or flight" instinct that humans do. This is, however, overrided by an incapacity to do either as a result of a rifle round to the vitals. Correct......You just said rifle round....Is not this thread pistol round? I would conclude then, for a pistol round, unless hitting the ultimate, one and only sweet spot, should be a large caliber, rating low on the wound survivability scale, be the one we desire. So therefore, big, expanding, lots of muzzle energy, and close range.?.?

gunnut
25 Sep 08,, 22:26
Once again, I don't literally mean an instant rag doll effect like Sniper is describing. What I do mean is that the shock associated with a few rounds of .45ACP ammunition will more often than not cause enough shock in a short amount of time to physically make it impossible for a human being to continue to function let alone fight.

I think the perception of the 45 having the "shock" effect come more from its relative high mass and low velocity, than from high energy. It doesn't penetrate too well. It's more likely to get stuck in the target. If it does, then all the energy is absorbed by the target.

A 9mm round with half the mass but 25% more velocity penetrates much better. If it goes through tissue, then not all the energy is absorbed by the target. Less energy in the target, less "stopping power."

Use a 44 magnum for good shock effect. :))

Shamus
25 Sep 08,, 22:31
Shamus,

Good post! Spot on!Thanks Snipe:).This is the web site it came from,lots of interesting info on it FirearmsTactical.com - Web Site Index and Navigation Center (http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm)

jame$thegreat
25 Sep 08,, 23:08
high mass and low velocity

I do recall saying that a few posts up...

Fine, pistol bullet cannot kill people unless one hits the exact spot within the head that has been described over and over again. Unless you intend on punching holes in paper you might as well not own a gun...

omon
25 Sep 08,, 23:27
this would pbly be more effective than a pistol:biggrin:

jame$thegreat
26 Sep 08,, 00:02
this would pbly be more effective than a pistol:biggrin:

Or this...

http://www.dreamsack.com/XQ/ASP/pg.products/specific.jnorgoo0/QX/images/ClientImages/Silk_filled_Bouidoir_and_Pillow_-_page.jpg

:rolleyes: Hey folks, I'm just going by the posts above.

jame$thegreat
26 Sep 08,, 00:06
this would pbly be more effective than a pistol:biggrin:

Bull Mastiff?

I work at a vet, let me tell you I am far more worried about the smaller dogs than the bigger ones. We had a 150lb Irish Sheepdog and a 10lb Italian Greyhound. Guess which one was more viscous? Italia takes the cake, the dog bit off my coworker's nose requiring immediate plastic surgery. The former was afraid of 3lb toy breeds. Go figure.

omon
26 Sep 08,, 00:54
Bull Mastiff?

I work at a vet, let me tell you I am far more worried about the smaller dogs than the bigger ones. We had a 150lb Irish Sheepdog and a 10lb Italian Greyhound. Guess which one was more viscous? Italia takes the cake, the dog bit off my coworker's nose requiring immediate plastic surgery. The former was afraid of 3lb toy breeds. Go figure.

no, persa canario
training is the key;)
there is no such thing as a bad dog, only bad owners.

Blue
26 Sep 08,, 01:22
I do recall saying that a few posts up...

Fine, pistol bullet cannot kill people unless one hits the exact spot within the head that has been described over and over again. Unless you intend on punching holes in paper you might as well not own a gun... James, please don't get despondent about it. We are simply discussing this so no one has false expectations. It is quite possible to incapacitate a person with a well placed shot, but there are many factors. One should not rely on the Dirty Harry concept of killing bad guys. ;)

jame$thegreat
26 Sep 08,, 01:55
James, please don't get despondent about it. We are simply discussing this so no one has false expectations. It is quite possible to incapacitate a person with a well placed shot, but there are many factors. One should not rely on the Dirty Harry concept of killing bad guys. ;)

I was being facetious. :)

jame$thegreat
26 Sep 08,, 02:02
no, persa canario
training is the key;)
there is no such thing as a bad dog, only bad owners.

I should have known, no cleft skull.

There certainly is an abundance of bad owners. Every dog under 25lbs at my job thinks they are God's gift to mankind. The only dogs that are even remotely well trained are 65+lbs or pitbulls.

Shamus
26 Sep 08,, 02:08
I was being facetious. :)Good deal bud,you are officially eligible for membership in my new political party, The Facetioust Party.The only qualification neccessary is the ability to keep a straight face while speaking of politics with your tongue-in-cheek;):biggrin:.

Blue
26 Sep 08,, 02:10
^^^^^^:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Kalvan
26 Sep 08,, 03:26
Bingo!!! You've done some research?

I've been a firearms instructor since '92. I don't remember where I picked it up. I've been telling my students this for years.


this would pbly be more effective than a pistol

With a pistol I can defend myself and the dog. :) If they take out the dog and you've got nothing else, you're hosed. The medium-sized dog that just alerts me that there is something there is what I'd tend to go with. And they don't eat as much (or leave as much).

jame$thegreat
28 Sep 08,, 06:39
Good deal bud,you are officially eligible for membership in my new political party, The Facetioust Party.The only qualification neccessary is the ability to keep a straight face while speaking of politics with your tongue-in-cheek;):biggrin:.

Can I become a registered Facetioust at 16?:))

Blue
29 Sep 08,, 03:14
Can I become a registered Facetioust at 16?:)) I think being a teenager makes you an automatic member!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

toemag
29 Sep 08,, 16:18
Can I become a registered Facetioust at 16?:))

Yes you can, just means that you are fast tracked for being a grumpy old cynical barsteward by the time your legally old enough to drink:biggrin:.

But don't sweat it you are in good company as most of us matured/decayed that fast too.

Tony