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LTC Robel's articles on the IBCT now known as SBCT

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  • LTC Robel's articles on the IBCT now known as SBCT

    The Evolution and Relative Effectiveness of the Interim Brigade Combat Team

    Medium Brigade Flaws, and the Cure: The IBCT Revisited

    The first article is worth the read. It points out flaws in the concepts and actually wargame it out.

    The second article detracts greatly and misses several points - that the M113 variant is no more survivable than the LAV III is and is much more vulnerable to minestrikes.

    If the M113 were in place instead of the LAV III, we would be hearing its flaws today as well. Neither is a Bradley.

    My own personal view is that the IBCT is missing only one thing to make it a decisive force - a battalion of tanks but the lift issue is currently the show stopper.

    The I/SBCT is going to die a slow death. 3-7Cav proved that a much smaller but heavier force can do everything the IBCT is slated to do - that of an initial entry force.

    The British/Canadian/Australian examples have shown that you can go medium without sacraficing combat power and not all the bde need to arrive within 72 hours. The tank bn is the calvary. It is mighty unchivalrious to arrive ahead of schedule. Just in the nick of time would do nicely.

  • #2
    Good riddance to it.

    The whole idea was stupid.

    While the M-113 properly modified would not be a world beater, it would be better than the LAV-3(Certainly more air mobile). Also, the entire logistics and maintenance infrastructure of the M-113 already exists in the army, while no such structure exists for the LAV III at this time.

    Finally, the deal killer, wheels do no belong on front line combat vehicles IMO.

    BTW, the US DID airlift a Troop of M-1/M-2's into N. Iraq during OIF, so there is definitive proof that it's viable.

    Instead of wasting money on the abortion that is the LAV III, we should have spent the money on more C-17's instead.

    The M-8 was better than either the M-113 or LAV III anyway.

    Comment


    • #3
      M21,

      One thing I learned is that it doesn't matter if it's wheeled or track (each got its faults), get it into the hands of the Sgts who got to lead and work in these vehicles. They'll make them work one way or the other.

      However, getting back on the subject, the M113 didn't have the array of vehicle types demanded by the IBCT (AEV, CP, Mortar, AGS, 25) which would have taken longer to develop than just choosing a vehicle with all those already in service. Besides, it's the Americans, when does money come into play?

      What Gen Shinseki tried to do was to solve an AF problem using army assets. There isn't enough lift and the AF wants to spend their money on sexy things like the B2 and F-22/JSF and the support (air refuellers) needed for those weapons instead of lift.

      I can see what's he trying to do as to land an initial entry force with enough combat mass to sustain itself until for a follow on div to arrive. I believe he went the wrong way. You need tanks.

      Comment


      • #4
        "One thing I learned is that it doesn't matter if it's wheeled or track (each got its faults), get it into the hands of the Sgts who got to lead and work in these vehicles. They'll make them work one way or the other."

        It's amazing the way NCO's get both man and machine motivated to do their job, aint it?

        Still, i'd much rather see the Bde equipped with 113's than anything with wheels. Though of course, i'd much rather see the whole idea scrapped.

        "However, getting back on the subject, the M113 didn't have the array of vehicle types demanded by the IBCT (AEV, CP, Mortar, AGS, 25) which would have taken longer to develop than just choosing a vehicle with all those already in service. Besides, it's the Americans, when does money come into play?"

        We have the mortar carrier covered(81, 106, and 120mm versions), the CP/FDC(M577), and the Isreali's make a very slick M-113A3 variant with a one man gyrostabilized 25mm turret. . For FO/FAC there's the FIST-V. For Antitank, there is the ITOW carrier(Can't remember the designation, but it's the FIST-V looking track, but with a twin TOW launcher instead of the designator)
        There is no AEV-113 variant that i know of, so i gotta agree on that one.

        It just seems like the Army wants a new vehicle for the sake of wanting a new vehicle. The M-113 is 50 years old, and despite the fact that it's nearly perfect as a base model for a 'stryker', the powers that be insist on a shiny new wheeled coffin. It's highly aggravating to me.

        And either way, the M-8 was still better than the -113 would be.

        "What Gen Shinseki tried to do was to solve an AF problem using army assets. There isn't enough lift and the AF wants to spend their money on sexy things like the B2 and F-22/JSF and the support (air refuellers) needed for those weapons instead of lift."

        I agree completely. And i also agree it's a bad idea. If they want to do that, they should transfer the money directly to the AF with a provision that the money be spent on only strategic lift assets. Never happen though...

        "can see what's he trying to do as to land an initial entry force with enough combat mass to sustain itself until for a follow on div to arrive. I believe he went the wrong way. You need tanks."

        I agree completely again. I'd rather have one US Heavy cavalry squadron equipped with the latest Abrams/Bradleys onscene than a bde of light armored junk in almost any possible scenario.

        Comment


        • #5
          Whats the M-8, the Paladin?
          Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

          Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

          Comment


          • #6
            M8 is a tank destroyer - never made it into production.

            M21,

            Oh, it gets better. There's another reason why they went wheel. Wheel can survive minestrikes much better (a Canadian LAV III hit an AT mine in Eritrea and made it back to base under its own power. Had to replace two axels. A track is dead under similar circumstances though the crew may survive). Good thing too because for an ENTIRE bde, there's only one engr coy and that includes bridging and trench pltns which leaves only one obstacle breaching pltn for the entire bde. ONE mine-clearing pltn for an entire bde.

            Trench you need but if you need bridging, you've flown to the wrong spot.

            That's another thing. To get the weight down, they stripped the LAV-III down to its bare bones and then would spend 40 min to 2 hours re-assembling the thing once on the ground. Don't know if the other M113 variants would have the same problem or not.

            The problem again is not the army. It's the AF. There simply isn't enough lift and the proper lift at that. We're trying to design vehicles to fit inside a C-130 when nobody bother to design the C-130 to carry a tank or two.

            BTW, an ACR sqdrn only works in these scenarios because we asking the sqdrn to do what a bn can do. I don't think you can ask them to do a bde tasking which is what the IBCT is supposed to do but then again, that's part of the solution. Don't try to do too much and do it badly. Do the little things that you're good at and do it well.

            BTW, good one. You've brought a tear to my eye. Bellycrawlers giving birdbrains money? Hehehehehehe! And the birdbrains would spend it on what what the bellycrawlers asked for? Hahahahahahahahahah!

            Comment


            • #7
              What happened to all the "joint" efferts, and mutual programs, etc...
              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

              Comment


              • #8
                Propaganda

                Comment


                • #9
                  You mean billions of dollars were spent on what was essentially commercials?
                  Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                  Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The projects starts out as joint but eventually the services took what they want and go their own seperate ways.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So why doesn't the government say play together or don't get toys at all?
                      Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                      Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Chriten is an idiot

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          With a name like that...
                          Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                          Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bigross86
                            With a name like that...
                            lmao :)Clp

                            Also Officr of Engineers, are you a RCAF Lt. Col.?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think he's a Colonel, not Lt. Colonel.
                              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                              Comment

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