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CDF & TMF's work on the PLA WZC in the TW Context

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  • CDF & TMF's work on the PLA WZC in the TW Context

    M21,

    I posted this on PakDef, don't know if you've seen it.

    For those who are unfamiliar with some terms.

    The War Zone Campaign (WZC) is the People's Republic of China's (PRC aka Communist China) People's Liberation Army (PLA - though the term says Army, the org at this echelon is really akin to the DoD/DND/MND)'s new doctrine based upon the American Field Manual 105 (now FM 3.0). It is a political action supported by military action and is classified into 3 military phases

    1) reconaisance by force
    2) initial force entry to establish the "war zone."
    3) decisive force winning a battle of annhilation in the "war zone.

    M21 and I have been discussing how the PLA would actually invade Taiwan (TW aka the Republic of China (RoC)). The PLA lacks the forces and the lifts necessary for a Normandy type landing. However, the PLA views WZC as the essential doctrine in winning that conflict. This is the result of some of that work.


    Canuckian Posted: Jul 26 2003, 11:45 PM

    M21 and HF3,

    CDF's discussions on this has been heavy and fruitful. Along with TMF members, we've flushed out alot of details.

    One thing that we still haven't nailed down is the approach but the PLA Army (the PLA used the term Army to distinquish the ground forces from their other branches. As a general note, the PLA includes the PLAAF, the PLAN, 2nd Artillery Corps, the Army, the Logistics dept, the Central Military Commission HQ, and their various sub branches) is avoiding that responsibility and leaving it to the PLAN.

    As I stated before, the PLA does not view airpower with high regard. Though intellectually, they understand its value, culturally, they minimize its importance. All media coming from the PRC points to the effectiveness of the Serb's passive defences against the toughest AFs on earth. In the Iraq War, the PRC media has been spouting just how ineffective Iraqi AD (passive and active) were, not how well the Coalition AFs did. They make special mention of Karbala.

    The above must be taken into context. The PLA simply doesn't have the experience to critique what went right and what went wrong. They go by their own experiences, dating back from the Korean and Vietnam Wars in which even strong AFs must take time to mount SEAD ops.

    The PLA envisions the War Zone Campaign (a take off of the US FM-105) as the basis of their OPLAN. The context here is to establish an Area of Operations (known as the War Zone in their jargon) and then to destroy the enemy's warfighting capabilities within that war zone.

    A couple of things jumped right out at our TMF friends. They identified a very significant sector that could act as the WZ. The Taipei Area which is defended by the RoCA 6th Corps. The AO could also be cut off at Hsinchu and Ilan (TMF's MikeH). TMF's Bryan C also noted that one of the weaknesses of the RoCA defences is the number of rivers and the few bridges that crosses over them. Also, the AO is lacking in RoCAF and RoCN strength which has its bulk in the south.

    This put a few twists and raises some very interesting scenarios. The 15ABC can now be seen as the blocking force - ie taking the bridges and holding them against the RoCA 10th Corps driving north.

    We have not been able to identify with motor rifle bde, guns bde, engr regt, or group armies would take part. However, from the WZC, we do know that Phase II is comprised of a motor rifle bde, a guns bde, and engr regt. Phase III is div to corps (Group Army) lvl.

    What we have been able to figure out is that the guns bde would come ashore via armed cargo frieghters and would provide fire from the beaches. It is highly doubtful that the guns bde would disembark.

    Also, we have been able to determine that the M9/M11 batteries are under army control. There are three opinions on their usage - taking out airfields, reduce the RoCA's LOC (ie attacking the bridges), or battlefield suppression. I am of the opinion that they are meant as battlefield suppression which fits the army's role instead of airfields (AF) or bridges (2AC).

    IF the rifle bde can breach the bombarded defences and the engr regt can clear a path through the defences and rubble, then they would have accomplish Phase II.

    IF this holds true (and it is a very big if at the moment), then the PLA Army should be able to disembark a single corps (I know they would prefer the 38th Group Army or the 39th Group Army but it would be more likely a corps based upon lighter arm'd such as the Type-99 amphibious tank).

    The PLA Army believes no one on earth is their equal in a meeting engagement, especially close quarters. They would be driving in, anticipating the RoCA 6th Corps rushing out to meet them. There is some logic in this. 6th Corps is responsible for Taipei and to prevent it from being damaged by PLA guns, they have to go out and stop the PLA corps from getting into guns range of Taipei.

    Once defeating 6th Corps, the PLA would have at their mercy, Taipei, the economic and political centre of Taiwan. The PLA would envision some sort of negotiated settlement if not outright surrender.

    From the military part, this ignores the RoCA 10th Corps and further south, 8th Corps. However, the PLA expects these corps to surrender or at least cease hostilities as a result of the Taipei situation.

    Please note that neither CDF nor TMF say that this is workable but all evidence points to the PLA thinking in this manner.
    Since that time, we've gone beyond these initial thinking.

    The PLA may very target the RoCA 10th or 8th Corps instead. Each also offer a tempting political solution via a military victory. 10th Corps is the smallest of the three RoCA Armies and thus, a tempting target. Defeating 10th Corps would split the island in two. 8th Corps is tougher. However, defeating that and the PLA controls TW's industrial areas and 2nd largest city. TW would cease to exist economically.

    Patrick Garrick of GlobalSecurity.org has been kind enough to send us DoD Report on China.

    In it, we learn that TW has been designated as part of the Nanjing Warzone

    Page 47 to 48

    During a major military campaign against Taiwan, the Nanjing MR would become part of the socalled “Nanjing War Zone,” which probably would include, at a minimum, the three group armies in the Nanjing MR, elements from group armies based in adjacent military regions Guangzhou and Jinan MRs), as well as China’s airborne and marine forces. Air assets would come primarily from the Nanjing MR augmented by mission-critical aircraft from other parts of China. The PLAN would commit assets from both the East and South Sea Fleets, as well as mission-critical assets from the North Sea Fleet. Finally, all deployed SRBMs most likely would be available to the “war zone” commander.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 10 Sep 03,, 04:05.

  • #2
    No, didn't get to see this. I stopped posting at WakiPaki to help the new forum out.

    Thanx for posting it here.

    A few comments, if i might(taking into account i am critiqueing the PLA, not the Colonel)...

    1) "As I stated before, the PLA does not view airpower with high regard. Though intellectually, they understand its value, culturally, they minimize its importance. All media coming from the PRC points to the effectiveness of the Serb's passive defences against the toughest AFs on earth. In the Iraq War, the PRC media has been spouting just how ineffective Iraqi AD (passive and active) were, not how well the Coalition AFs did. They make special mention of Karbala. "

    If so, the PLA is living dangerously. There is a world of difference between hunting out a camoflauged enemy in broken/wooded terrain and intercepting a fleet at sea, or an amphibious group on the beaches.

    One would think they'd know this. :-(

    2) "A couple of things jumped right out at our TMF friends. They identified a very significant sector that could act as the WZ. The Taipei Area which is defended by the RoCA 6th Corps. The AO could also be cut off at Hsinchu and Ilan (TMF's MikeH). TMF's Bryan C also noted that one of the weaknesses of the RoCA defences is the number of rivers and the few bridges that crosses over them. Also, the AO is lacking in RoCAF and RoCN strength which has its bulk in the south.

    This put a few twists and raises some very interesting scenarios. The 15ABC can now be seen as the blocking force - ie taking the bridges and holding them against the RoCA 10th Corps driving north."

    This alone demonstrates how much differently the PLA thinks.(Assuming this was their plan). Rivers are normally considered a bad thing when they're in your axis of advance. In this scenario the PLA would use the river in much the same way i would in ROC's shoes.

    LOL, might have both sides on opposite sides of the river waiting for the other to come across. You first, lol.

    Like the DMZ with water.

    3) "What we have been able to figure out is that the guns bde would come ashore via armed cargo frieghters and would provide fire from the beaches. It is highly doubtful that the guns bde would disembark."

    LOL, aint you glad you're not a PLA "Officer of Artillery"?

    What a disaster waiting to happen.

    4) "Also, we have been able to determine that the M9/M11 batteries are under army control. There are three opinions on their usage - taking out airfields, reduce the RoCA's LOC (ie attacking the bridges), or battlefield suppression. I am of the opinion that they are meant as battlefield suppression which fits the army's role instead of airfields (AF) or bridges (2AC)."

    Me personally, i'd shut down the airfields first, but i agree they're likely to employ their guns as you laid out above. Dumb, but that seems to fit their doctrine.

    5) "The PLA Army believes no one on earth is their equal in a meeting engagement, especially close quarters."

    LOL, probably because they've never been to NTC. Everyone who ever has, knows that the 11th ACR owns that crown. PRC might not have an equal in Taiwan, but the US Army is way out of their league...in my opinion.

    6) "Once defeating 6th Corps, the PLA would have at their mercy, Taipei, the economic and political centre of Taiwan. The PLA would envision some sort of negotiated settlement if not outright surrender.

    From the military part, this ignores the RoCA 10th Corps and further south, 8th Corps. However, the PLA expects these corps to surrender or at least cease hostilities as a result of the Taipei situation."

    See, this is flawed thinking. China has to at least assume US intervention, so they cannot assume Taiwan will surrender if they still have forces in the field. Odd.

    7) "The PLA may very target the RoCA 10th or 8th Corps instead. Each also offer a tempting political solution via a military victory. 10th Corps is the smallest of the three RoCA Armies and thus, a tempting target. Defeating 10th Corps would split the island in two. 8th Corps is tougher. However, defeating that and the PLA controls TW's industrial areas and 2nd largest city. TW would cease to exist economically"

    I guess if i was the PRC i'd go after 10 corps, cut the island in half(or rather try in sheer futility ;).

    8) "During a major military campaign against Taiwan, the Nanjing MR would become part of the socalled “Nanjing War Zone,” which probably would include, at a minimum, the three group armies in the Nanjing MR, elements from group armies based in adjacent military regions Guangzhou and Jinan MRs), as well as China’s airborne and marine forces. Air assets would come primarily from the Nanjing MR augmented by mission-critical aircraft from other parts of China. The PLAN would commit assets from both the East and South Sea Fleets, as well as mission-critical assets from the North Sea Fleet. Finally, all deployed SRBMs most likely would be available to the “war zone” commander."

    I don't see PLA's airborne forces being commited. It would be suicide.

    Comment


    • #3
      You ever get the feeling that the PRC barking is just a big bluff?

      Sometimes it's hard to believe that the PRC is run by a nation of pragmatists when you look at the lunacy of the ROC invasion scenario.

      Comment


      • #4
        I can sum it up in one word - money.

        The PLA has been starved of funds for decades (co-incidently, that's when they made the biggest improvements - abandonning the People's War for more realistic military options). Now, they have the CCP's undivided attention about TW unification and they're milking it for every cent that they can get.

        Army Chief Gen Liang Guanglie is probably the one slated for command of the TW op if it ever gets the go. Co-incidently, he's the one who's been spending all that money doing the WZC thinking and training and devising exercises (aka demonstrations aka dog-and-pony shows).

        Comment


        • #5
          “You ever get the feeling that the PRC barking is just a big bluff?”

          That’s all it really is just words to get kids blood up. Its more of the communist need to have an enemy to keep their own population looking outwards then inwards at their own problems (no freedom for example). Without enemies the system would have problems to say the least.

          And of course if they go out and lose the system would collapse. Nothing would hasten the collapse more then say the grand fleet coming home in ruins with thousands of dead sailors and marines along with the economic isolation which could follow as the USN/ROCN go on the offensive backed with the USAF/ROCAF.

          “Sometimes it's hard to believe that the PRC is run by a nation of pragmatists when you look at the lunacy of the ROC invasion scenario.”

          They have as much chance of launching an invasion as Russia has of suddenly going after say Alaska. Would they risk losing power from losing the invasion?

          I’m not talking about some USA/ROC invasion just the locals going out on the streets.
          To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

          Comment


          • #6

            That’s all it really is just words to get kids blood up. Its more of the communist need to have an enemy to keep their own population looking outwards then inwards at their own problems (no freedom for example). Without enemies the system would have problems to say the least.
            Makes sense, the Chinese always say most of their problems are rather internal than TW or USA or Japan. China is not homogenous, and thats one more problem to take care of! I know one other example of this case, but it would change the discussion, so i'll let go!
            Last edited by Jay; 22 May 04,, 17:48.
            A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by M21Sniper
              3) "What we have been able to figure out is that the guns bde would come ashore via armed cargo frieghters and would provide fire from the beaches. It is highly doubtful that the guns bde would disembark."

              LOL, aint you glad you're not a PLA "Officer of Artillery"?

              What a disaster waiting to happen.
              Well, Bill, I guess they are serious. I still cannot imagine why they're proceeding with this. We stop doing this after WWII for a reason. It didn't work.
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • #8
                Freaking ridiculous.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think they are just trying to solace their people, that their tanks can hit TW from the sea ..so no need of large amphibious ships, no need of missile batteries, just barge mounted tanks wud be good enuff ;)

                  I dont know how well these siting ducks would be escorted in water
                  A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    How many joint exercises have the PLA and PLAAF conducted in the last decade?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jay
                      I think they are just trying to solace their people, that their tanks can hit TW from the sea ..so no need of large amphibious ships, no need of missile batteries, just barge mounted tanks wud be good enuff ;)

                      I dont know how well these siting ducks would be escorted in water
                      1) That's not a tank but a SPH.

                      2) PLA Experimentation with Armed Cargo Ships by Stephen Miles

                      Originally posted by Sameer
                      How many joint exercises have the PLA and PLAAF conducted in the last decade?
                      China, Russia launch forced isolation drill

                      PLA Daily 2005-08-26

                        

                      WEIFANG, Shandong, Aug. 25 (Xinhuanet) -- Chinese and Russian troops launched a forced isolation drill in east China's Shandong Province Thursday as the last item of actual combat in the joint military exercise dubbed "Peace Mission 2005".

                        At 11:00 a.m., two Russian Tu-95MS strategic bombers flew near the drill zone after two and a half hours flight from Russia, which unfolded the forced isolation drill.

                        At that point, an A-50 early warning plane took off to establish the airborne early warning system. Other segments of the troops also went into operation.

                        At 11:07, four Tu-22M3 Russian long-range bombers from Russia also entered the drill zone and launched continuous attacks on the airport of the "enemy troops".

                        Immediately after that, the airborne formation sent 18 fighter jets in nine batches to attack the enemy troops, commanding posts and defense works in the depth.

                        At 11:17, the artillery began to bombard the frontline defense works and other targets in the depths of the enemy region. Meanwhile, bombs carrying propaganda materials were fired to the enemy region.

                        After the attacks, the enemy forces began to readjust their deployment and retreated to the airport and key positions in the depths.

                        At 11:26, a formation of 10 IL-76 transport planes carrying Chinese and Russian paratroops arrived at the airspace of the combat zone covered by electronic-jamming planes and fighter jets.

                        At 11:38, the transport planes began to drop combat vehicles for the paratroops and in less than 10 minutes, 24 combat vehicles had been dropped. After that, 86 Chinese and Russian paratroops dropped to the ground from a height of 800 meters.

                         The paratroops quickly gathered around the fighting vehicles and got ready to attack pre-set targets. They launched operations and captured the airport, cutting off the air link of the enemy.

                        At 11:53, a transport helicopter arrived at the dropping zone on the right of the enemy region under the cover of air fire and let out troops, who immediately launched attack on the pre-set targets to cut off the enemy's link to sea.

                        Immediately after the air link and route to sea of the enemy were cut off, the Sino-Russian joint forces sent rangers to attack the defense line of the enemy under fire cover and quickly made breakthroughs in several spots.

                        At 12:15, scores of armored vehicles from the southeast and southwest rumbled quickly to the depth of the enemy region.

                        The Sino-Russian forces has successfully established the forced isolation zone on land through sending picked troops to make breakthroughs, launching multi-point attacks, thrusting troops into the depth of the enemy region to isolate, surround and annihilate the enemy troops.

                        Although the enemy troops still put up a desperate struggle, their failure has become a foregone conclusion.

                        Chinese defense minister Cao Gangchuan and his Russian counterpart Sergei Ivanov were at the drill zone to observe and issue instructions.

                        Other observers included Kyrgyz Defense Minister Ismail Isakov, Tajik Defense Minister Sherali Khairullaev, Kazakh Deputy Defense Minister Abai Tasbulatov and Uzbekistan Deputy Defense Minister R.Niyazov.


                      First consecutive airdrop of heavy equipment by PLA Air Force successfully accomplished

                      PLA Daily 2005-08-26

                        

                        Around 10: 00 o'clock yesterday, we journalists boarded on the No. 4035 large transporter, an aircraft belonging to a transport aviation division of the PLA Air Force, and headed for the designated airdrop and air landing sites at the Weibei Shooting Range to witness from the air the consecutive airdrop of 3 pieces of heavy equipment of the PLA Air Force, the first airdrop with ammunitions by the PLA Air Force, and a debut appearance of a new type of paratroops combat vehicle.

                         At 10:33am, the No 4035 Transporter carrying journalists took off from the airport and climbed rapidly into the sky. After flying for some time through some dense clouds, it entered the designated airdrop space.

                        At 11:25am, the transporter began to descend. Navigators Li Hui'an and Chen Zhijian were busy calculating the time and distance, and as we looked down, we could see clearly the vast expanse of green fields peppered with villages under our aircraft.

                        At 11:35am, the first transporter dropped 3 pieces of heavy equipment one after another. One minute later, the second transporter began its airdrop; still another minute later, the third transporter finished its drop of heavy equipment.

                        At 11:38am, the navigator of the transporter on which the journalists boarded pressed the airdrop button, and three combat vehicles promptly slid out of the cargo bay.

                        Meanwhile huge parachutes on the heavy equipment dropped from four transporters all opened up. Several dozen seconds later, the heavy equipment fell onto the ground. Instantly, the separation device on parachutes activated and the parachutes flew away.

                        In a few minutes, 12 pieces of heavy equipment dropped by four transporters of the PLA Air Force all landed safely at the designated dropping site.

                        By Zhang Jinyu and Liu Xing'an

                        (Aug. 26, PLA Daily)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I wonder if China wasable to get the Skhaval from Russia, afterall the chinese were aparently present when the USS Toledo and Memphis screwed the Kursk sub up in 2000.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If the Chinese performance in Korea is anything to go by and the bits of peaces that we sometimes get about their training is true, the PLA is probably the most underrated army out there, even its airforce, i have spent considerable time trying to collect some info about PLAAF pilot training regiment and in my opinion the Chinese armed forces are one of the world's best in terms of training and surely they are doing a good job in terms of aquisition. Certainly i think that most members in many a forum do not give credit to Chinese avionics etc, for all we know the FC-1 could have some very decent Chinese indegenous avionics, this Chinese make cheap and garbage products mentality has to change. the engineering students from China that i have had the pleasure of meeting are one of the worlds' finest, i myself used to be more suspicious until i started to get to see them, their understanding of complex mathematics and problem solving techniques is up there.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            1979 certainly did not show it. 1984 was a big improvement but nowhere near the PLA at its leanest and meanest in 1962.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
                              1) That's not a tank but a SPH.
                              Sir,
                              Indeed. But from your link,
                              In the most striking picture, the deck of a cargo ship is shown covered with a variety of PLA land combat systems. From front to rear a Type 54 122mm Howitzer, Type 59 130mm Gun, Type 62 Tank, a Type 59 Series Tank, a Type 89 122mm Self-Propelled Howitzer, and another vehicle are seen chained down to the deck and firing a "broadside."
                              Thanks, that was quite informative.



                              China, Russia launch forced isolation drill

                              PLA Daily 2005-08-26

                                

                              WEIFANG, Shandong, Aug. 25 (Xinhuanet) -- Chinese and Russian troops launched a forced isolation drill in east China's Shandong Province Thursday as the last item of actual combat in the joint military exercise dubbed "Peace Mission 2005".

                                At 11:00 a.m., two Russian Tu-95MS strategic bombers flew near the drill zone after two and a half hours flight from Russia, which unfolded the forced isolation drill.

                                At that point, an A-50 early warning plane took off to establish the airborne early warning system. Other segments of the troops also went into operation.

                                At 11:07, four Tu-22M3 Russian long-range bombers from Russia also entered the drill zone and launched continuous attacks on the airport of the "enemy troops".

                                Immediately after that, the airborne formation sent 18 fighter jets in nine batches to attack the enemy troops, commanding posts and defense works in the depth.

                                At 11:17, the artillery began to bombard the frontline defense works and other targets in the depths of the enemy region. Meanwhile, bombs carrying propaganda materials were fired to the enemy region.

                                After the attacks, the enemy forces began to readjust their deployment and retreated to the airport and key positions in the depths.

                                At 11:26, a formation of 10 IL-76 transport planes carrying Chinese and Russian paratroops arrived at the airspace of the combat zone covered by electronic-jamming planes and fighter jets.

                                At 11:38, the transport planes began to drop combat vehicles for the paratroops and in less than 10 minutes, 24 combat vehicles had been dropped. After that, 86 Chinese and Russian paratroops dropped to the ground from a height of 800 meters.

                                 The paratroops quickly gathered around the fighting vehicles and got ready to attack pre-set targets. They launched operations and captured the airport, cutting off the air link of the enemy.

                                At 11:53, a transport helicopter arrived at the dropping zone on the right of the enemy region under the cover of air fire and let out troops, who immediately launched attack on the pre-set targets to cut off the enemy's link to sea.

                                Immediately after the air link and route to sea of the enemy were cut off, the Sino-Russian joint forces sent rangers to attack the defense line of the enemy under fire cover and quickly made breakthroughs in several spots.

                                At 12:15, scores of armored vehicles from the southeast and southwest rumbled quickly to the depth of the enemy region.

                                The Sino-Russian forces has successfully established the forced isolation zone on land through sending picked troops to make breakthroughs, launching multi-point attacks, thrusting troops into the depth of the enemy region to isolate, surround and annihilate the enemy troops.

                                Although the enemy troops still put up a desperate struggle, their failure has become a foregone conclusion.

                                Chinese defense minister Cao Gangchuan and his Russian counterpart Sergei Ivanov were at the drill zone to observe and issue instructions.

                                Other observers included Kyrgyz Defense Minister Ismail Isakov, Tajik Defense Minister Sherali Khairullaev, Kazakh Deputy Defense Minister Abai Tasbulatov and Uzbekistan Deputy Defense Minister R.Niyazov.


                              First consecutive airdrop of heavy equipment by PLA Air Force successfully accomplished

                              PLA Daily 2005-08-26

                                

                                Around 10: 00 o'clock yesterday, we journalists boarded on the No. 4035 large transporter, an aircraft belonging to a transport aviation division of the PLA Air Force, and headed for the designated airdrop and air landing sites at the Weibei Shooting Range to witness from the air the consecutive airdrop of 3 pieces of heavy equipment of the PLA Air Force, the first airdrop with ammunitions by the PLA Air Force, and a debut appearance of a new type of paratroops combat vehicle.

                                 At 10:33am, the No 4035 Transporter carrying journalists took off from the airport and climbed rapidly into the sky. After flying for some time through some dense clouds, it entered the designated airdrop space.

                                At 11:25am, the transporter began to descend. Navigators Li Hui'an and Chen Zhijian were busy calculating the time and distance, and as we looked down, we could see clearly the vast expanse of green fields peppered with villages under our aircraft.

                                At 11:35am, the first transporter dropped 3 pieces of heavy equipment one after another. One minute later, the second transporter began its airdrop; still another minute later, the third transporter finished its drop of heavy equipment.

                                At 11:38am, the navigator of the transporter on which the journalists boarded pressed the airdrop button, and three combat vehicles promptly slid out of the cargo bay.

                                Meanwhile huge parachutes on the heavy equipment dropped from four transporters all opened up. Several dozen seconds later, the heavy equipment fell onto the ground. Instantly, the separation device on parachutes activated and the parachutes flew away.

                                In a few minutes, 12 pieces of heavy equipment dropped by four transporters of the PLA Air Force all landed safely at the designated dropping site.

                                By Zhang Jinyu and Liu Xing'an

                                (Aug. 26, PLA Daily)[/QUOTE]
                              A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

                              Comment

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