Zinja

Hi Tophatter,

I know you said you are pening off from this thread, but i found your comments intriguing and wish to pose just 4 questions to you, please give me your take on these;

1. What do you make of these comments by the Bible "... great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of the Angels, Preached unto the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up into glory"(I1Tim3:16)

2. Who raised Christ from the dead?

3. " ... ... but what He seeth the Father do, for what things soever he doeth these also doeth the son likewise" (Jn5:19)

4. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God, the same was in the beginnig with God"(Jn1:1-2). In this extract who is who/what, viz the father, son & Holy Spirit?

Your input on this one would be greatly appreciated.

FullTank

It is good that the western countries are somewhat open to criticism and open to change. That has played a big part in thier progress.

Jesus was a good guy. He never fought or killed anyone nor preached violence. Whether he was son of god or not is immaterial, whether the bible is accurate or not is immaterial imo. A brit told me once that Jesus was nothing more than a politician in those times. So what...his means were good, and the message..

What is important the message he preached and whether his followers are following the message. Maybe he could have told something more to his followers..."guys only use ethical means..no violence..no lies..no ulterior ways". Did he say that?


The ones who taint the name of Jesus are the evangelists/proselytizers. Using propaganda and spreading lies about other cultures and religions is not moral or ethical. The terrorists use violence to spread the word and the evangelists use media and lies. How is using lies any less criminal than using violence?


Do good deeds but why have a ulterior motive behind it? Why do good deeds in the name of spreading religion? Why not do good deeds and leave it at that? Why have a ulterior motive behind that deed and taint the act? Why have a motive behind the act?

The terrorists use the front door to slam religion down your throat while the evangelists use the back door. Earlier the proponents of christianity used violence, now it is other means. This is all giving Jesus a bad name and nothing else.

Surely tell the good things about Christianity but why use media and international pressure to spread your ideology? Why use wrong interpretations of other religions and philosophies for your propaganda?

Why use incidents like Tsunami, poverty and other tragic situations to spread an ideology? Why work on the minds of the weak or a bad situation?

If you do not understand non Judeo-Christian-Islamic thinking and philosophy then leave it at that..

Why spread false things about it?..Why pick and choose stuff to cause confusion and despair? Is this right or ethical? A lot of misgivings in other parts of the world can be tracked clearly to the false information spread by the "peaceful" people and of course by using the famous divide and rule as well as using the media...spread wrong info as well as keep digging, digging, digging till something festers and blows out of proportion and then say hey we are the good guys. Come join us.

Where is the free thinking western media and people condemning these immoral acts?

Whenever you see some any wrong method of behaviour among followers of any ideology..if the incident is a few times or even a few dozen times then there is no reason to blame that ideology. But when you see consistent immoral behaviour from a group of followers of that ideology/religion/philosophy whatever then maybe there is something wrong that can be traced to the source of the teaching or the message(or the lack of message)..There cant be smoke without fire.

What is required is to modify/revise it in tune with the times, make changes to spread harmony and growth and free thought rather than a message/ideology and remove parts that are not in tune with the times.

brokensickle

So us Christians, because we are not violent, We are using the back door???
And since the Muslim's are killing they are using the front door and in doing so are just being more candid??? What kind of convoluted reasoning is that,
Half full? So your solution is what???

You obviously hate Christians. Were you taught that in school? Do you have any thoughts of your own?




Ivan

__________________
"Evil opposes freedom and uses those who pervert it as pawns to destroy it."

snc128

two wrong approaches.nothing more

__________________
Peace at home, peace in the world

tankie

[quote=FullTank;

Jesus was a good guy. He never fought or killed anyone QUOTE]

Maybe he never , but think of all the millions who have been killed in his name , and allahs

__________________
TANKIE , WITHOUT WAX

FullTank

snc128 is mostly right.

I also meant there is a need to have a deeper look at parts of the message which is causing inability to accept others. It is these parts that are causing problems to other people. Either need to remove them or modify or other people will reject you( people who follow that ideology) and the ideology on account of the probem it causes them...and in many occassions the rejection may not be peaceful. Dont indulge in self pity or act saintly later.


What rubbish logic is this Ivan? Does not using violence translate to using the back door automatically? I said dont use violence and dont use back door. Both different and both wrong. One doesnt justify the other. One doesnt make the other ok.

Moreover did I say all Christians? There are many Christians who are not hard core people or spend time in evangelizing. They go about their own work and have absolutely no bias towards others. They are great chaps. Those who dont use the wrong means I dont have any issues with. But there are evangelists/proselytizers who DO use lies and wrong messages and wrong means to spread the ideology and that is wrong. Do you have doubt that there arent? Surely there must be muslims who doubt that there cannot be an islamic terrorist dont you think so, in that case?

I dont hate Chritians..I really dont..They have the same flesh and blood and feelings that I do. We are all the same anyway(seperated by ideologies in our brains). But I do hate those people who have an obsession with spreading an ideology using wrong ways, especially if it is an ideology that can cause problems if used literally.

How quick you were to cast me as a Christian hater..because I pointed out some wrong deeds done in the name of jesus..and you are a well read person I believe...then why do you find it surprising when a muslim accuses you of being a muslim hater when you point out something wrong?

Finally..I studied in a christian brothers school and do know the Our father in heaven prayer very well...If you think that I am brainwashed on account of it, then so be it.

So please dont act like a saint, because there arent any saints any more...that is if there were any earlier.

So just follow that ideology yourself and go to heaven or hell or wherever it is you want to go after death. How does where I go to after my death concern you in any way?
Whether judgement day or pay day..it is my effin problem.

ExNavyAmerican

"Using the back door", imo, would be like using politics to impose your beliefs upon the populace, and using education to indoctrinate the next generation.*

Christians do neither. Now, no doubt that we intend to convert you; but we won't kill you for it. The Bible says to try three times, than quit. Unlike our Muslim, and Catholic opposites: we believe in free will. We believe that in order to be truly saved you have to have converted under your own will. Therefore, coercian is out. But again, Catholics and Muslims don't know the meaning of "free will".

Back to the main point, though (ie "coming in the back door"). If we could be anymore forthwright, I'd be surprised. From the day that the apostles witnessed in the Jewish temple, when Paul testified before Nero, and now when Christians stand on the street preaching hellfire and damnation: what is your definition of forthwrightness?

If the mere fact that we evangelize bugs you, then I say tough. Hide under the covers, stick your fingers in your ears, and hum real loudly: because we're here 'till the last days with no intention of leaving.



*(of course, that latter technique has already been claimed by leftists.)

__________________
"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
- Thomas Jefferson

ExNavyAmerican

You're right about that. Will it be brimstone or sulfur?

You all say that you're "enlightened"; you all think that you're like Edward Gibbon; people, you'll learn the true meaning of "enlightenment".

ExNavyAmerican

By the way. the Trinity is mentioned in the Bible, and it's not polytheism:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. -John 5:7

For those of you denying the deity of Christ:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." -Isaiah 9:6

Arnold123

The heading on this column is 'The Accuracy of The Bible'. Running on the assumption that it is, and somebody must have done this in the past, what is the up-to-date take on the battle of Armagedon, combatants and logistics?

brokensickle

You throw out sayings like, "Christian's use the back door". With absolutely no definition of what you mean. If you were talking about Martians from outer space all the tripe you spout is perfectly meaningless and baseless.

You might say something like, 'Murders use the front door and are justified, and those that use the back door are: FILL IN THE BLANK. But we don't know what "using the backdoor" even means. Any member of humanity could be lumped into your senario.

I'm sure it's the best you can do as a general insult to Christians as you really don't know what you are talking about.

Come back to me with your comments after you have read the Bible from cover to cover and then we will talk. Until then, dont pretend you have some
great insight that you don't




Ivan

Gun Grape

Don't use politics to impose your beliefs? Then why is it that I cannot buy beer on Sunday? Why do Churches get special Buffer Zones around them?
Why are the stores required to be closed on Sunday until noon? Why can't I do construction work on Sunday? Why can't I hunt in certain places on Sunday?

I agree with you. Its time for you christians to band together and fight to repeal all those "Blue Laws". Since you don't want to impose your religon on us heathens.

So you guys are not going to blow up abortion clinics, Gay nightclubs or shoot doctors anymore? Thats good to hear.

ExNavyAmerican

Most blue laws are not enforced anymore, or have been repealed. And that's not imposition of religion. Originally (like in colonial connecticut) they were brutal, and simply idiotic-being completely unbiblical. Now, in the few places they're enforced, they're relatively mild being mostly what you describe. But again, that's not imposition, it's simply left-overs from a one-time Christian country. These laws for the past 230 years were not meant to impose beliefs, but to make Sunday a day of rest for Christians-just about everyone at that time; they did this by closing businesses. They protected Christians' "civil rights". I'd refute the original "bloody laws" in New England, but those haven't been practiced in 300 years.

But, since there is no evidence of forced conversion; and since no one's forcing you to go to church, nor practice any of our beliefs, I think that you'll survive, and in so doing, you'll look up the meaning of religious imposition.

Completely untrue. Those acts were commited by splinter far-right wing political groups-there are no such Christian groups.

Ray

It does matter to me either way.

However, the credibility of the discussion is of essence and should be dogma free.

Here are some sites that may contribute to the thread:



"Rice Christians"
Reaching Your World

Baptists Tired of Being Swindled by Rice Christians
Baptists Tired of Being Swindled by Rice Christians - Christian Aggression

From the UK newspaper Telgraph:
Telegraph Blogs : Foreign : Peter Foster : August 2006

On Southern Baptists evangelism
Southern Baptists Declare War on Hindus - Aggressive Proselytization Campaign for Diwali - Christian Aggression

Christian conversion in Buddhist Sri Lanka
Christian conversion in Buddhist Sri Lanka

NEWS NOTES 02/11/2005
Bogus “faith healers” like Hinn bring reproach to the cause of Christ. (No one ever died when they were seeking healing from Him.) Benny Hinn claims to have ...
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/friday...ews050211.html




Therefore, evangelism through all means and I presume it is the same for all religions is very much evident!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

chankya

Southern Methodist Diwali Pamphlet is a scan of the pamphlet for the diwali campaign, I believe. Its mostly lies parading as facts.

I found it mildly annoying but coupled with the fact that a few days after I saw this, a person(unrelated) came knocking a my door asking me to "see the light" meant it stayed in memory. Not illegal not very civil either.

__________________
"Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides