JAD_333

I believe you are right on this point.

Why are you concerned with equality? The trinity is three parts of a symbiotic whole, each part representing one of three forces needed to complete the whole. It's pure physics, every action (active) produces a corresponding reaction (passive) except modern physics didn't take into account the third, or neutraizing, force which the motivator, such as will. The three parts of this trinity continually change modes, one is active at one moment and passive the next, but all are in motion when one is triggered. It takes some contemplation to understand this and apply it to Jesus' message.

The church is right to call the trinity a mystery because no one knows how God, one of the essential forces in it came about. The other two, man and his inner spirit (conscience), on the other hand, are held to have been created by God and of God, which is to say from material God made the world of or from which he was made. Hence we are God materially but not yet spirtually, not until we are completed, or form a trinity with him.

The irony is only in how one perceives things. Our disorder is superficial, a layer of unanswered questions, false assumptions, and distractions that blocks us from seeing the order. The great religions were laid down by people who penetrated this layer and obeyed a compulsion to teach other people how to follow them.


It's all there, for sure.

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To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)

glyn

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Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

entropy

TopHatter,

I am sure Roman paganism found it's way into the Bible. Could you possibly imagine an empire introducing an entirely new religion without some "minor" corrections?

Catolicism is paganism, but it's a different story. It is "Christianity" totally adopted to the Roman needs.

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If memory serves...

JAD_333

I am afraid you need a thorough etymological overhaul. Check dictionary.

entropy

A Mother Goddess, smaller deities representing their trade, rituals. Not too much difference from the Roman Pantheon.

The vast amount of rituals was adapted because the Roman belief system was based on contracts. If the worshipper performed his deal of the "contract" well, eg performing a ritual or making a sacrifice, the deity was obliged to perform its part.

I know that my statement upset you, but if looked on without the bias it does resemble Roman polytheism.

TopHatter

I agree with entropy.

No offense intended to our Catholic members, but Catholicism is riddled with Roman paganism - a sop to the people who suddenly had this new religion thrust upon them as entropy said.

Catholicism and Roman paganisim share polytheism, Mother Godess worship and idolatry, all of which are condemned in the Bible.

I'm sorry if the comparison is upsetting to others, but there it is.

JAD_333

Oh, please. It didn't upset me. I just thought you might like to know that you were giving new meaning to the word pagan and paganism.

JAD_333

What did you agree with, TH? This?

That's a good bit different than saying some pagan rituals were adopted into Catholicism. That's saying it is all pagan.

In any case, entropy is confusing apples and oranges. The Catholic church and the christian religion are the ship and the message respectively. One can say, as he did, that the Catholic church is Roman in structure, but Catholicism the religion is very Christian.

His was an unclear, even contradictory statement, inasmuch as "pagan" is defined as all religious systems except Christianity, Judaism & Islam. (IMO, the term excludes some heafty religions, but that's another subject.)

Ray

Have a look at this site:

How Do You Know The Bible Is True?

It does help.

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

entropy

Catolicism has a lot of rituals and concepts that aren't even mentioned in the Bible. The Birth Sin, symbolics such as giving money for your sins, the entire Papacy, celibacy of priests, Hell (only briefly mentioned in the Bible), and so on. It relies on symbolics more than on spirituality, symbolics which more often than not are unmentioned in the Bible.

As for paganism, how is having one upper deity, a mother goddess, their son, and myriads of deities representing their profession (as was the case with all pagan religions, you had gods of war, blacksmiths, love, shipping, merchants, ...) which can be worshipped separately (while the Bible clearly says that you should not worship other gods than JHVH), not pagan? Does the presence of a Christian book make it different? I see the very concepts of ancient polytheism in the Catholic faith.

TopHatter

I don't know that I would go quite that far, but neither would I say "Aaah, it's only a few pagan rituals...not that bad".

More like shot through with pagan rituals. Entropy already detailed them.

Jesus Christ said that "I am the way, the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father, except through me." emphasis added obviously

Sounds like a clear directive not to pray to anybody but God and only approach Him in Jesus' name.

Yet, Catholics seem to pray to or through just about anybody they want, as long as they have "Saint" in front of their name, or "Mother Mary".

Speaking of Mary worship, I recall a scripture where a well-meaning woman approached Jesus and spontaneously shouted praises about his mother. Jesus stopped her and said "No, happy is the person finding the Kingdom of God and keeping it." Sounds like a pretty good example to emulate, what with it coming out of the mouth of no less than Jesus himself...yet the Catholic Church venerates Mary as if she were God Himself.

Ray

Yes, Happy is the person who finds the Kingdom of God.

What you are doing is nitpicking (Not that I take any side).

It is evident that a Mother, to any sane person, is an icon of reverence since she raises and tend a child till adulthood. I am no Catholic, but that is possibly the reason why the Catholics club Virgin Mary as a icon for reverence.

But then, God (an unknown and unseen icon that supposedly protects mankind and is supreme to all living beings) is taken to be higher than the Mother in the reverence quotient. That is what is meant by this statement that "Happy is the person who finds the Kingdom of God".

What is "Kingdom of God"? To me, it is the realm of extreme satisfaction and good cheer without the hocus pocus of religiosity. To reach it, one has to have a simplistic life and be happy in whatever one does. No amount of scriptures can get you there!

If one is to nitpick, prove that there is God!

Let people be in whatever they believe or do not believe.

The bottomline is happiness and satisfaction!

That is the "Kingdom of God".

Ray

Similarities between Pagan and Christian practices

The early Christians and Pagans shared many rituals and practices. Authors Freke & Gandy appear to assume that all of the copying was done by Christians from Pagan sources. 3 However, some might have gone in the opposite direction. During the 3rd century CE, Mithraism and Christianity were the main competitors for the religious affiliation the citizens of Romans. Some Christian practices might have actually been picked up by the Mithraites, rather than vice-versa.

Many early Christians celebrated Jesus' birthday on JAN-6. Armenian Christians still do. In Alexandria, in what is now Egypt, the birthday of their god-man, Aion, was also celebrated on JAN-6.

Christians and most Pagans eventually celebrated the birthday of their god-man on DEC-25.

According to an ancient Christian tradition, Christ died on MAR-23 and resurrected on MAR-25. These dates agree precisely with the death and resurrection of Attis.

Baptism was a principal ritual; it washed away a person's sins. In some rituals, Baptism was performed by sprinkling holy water on the believer; in others, the person was totally immersed.

The most important sacrament was a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolize the god-man's body and blood. His followers were accused of engaging in cannibalism.

Early Christians initiated converts in March and April by baptism. Mithraism initiated their new members at this time as well.

Early Christians were naked when they were baptized. After immersion, they then put on white clothing and a crown. They carried a candle and walked in a procession to a basilica. Followers of Mithra were also baptized naked, put on white clothing and a crown, and walked in a procession to the temple. However, they carried torches.

At Pentecost, the followers of Jesus were recorded as speaking in tongues. At Trophonius and Delos, the Pagan priestesses also spoke in tongues: They appeared to speak in such a way that each person present heard her words in the observer's own language.

An inscription to Mithras reads: "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." 1 In John 6:53-54, Jesus is said to have repeated this theme: "...Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)

The Bible records that Jesus was crucified between two thieves. One went to heaven and the other to hell. In the Mithras mysteries, a common image showed Mithras flanked by two torchbearers, one on either side. One held a torch pointed upwards, the other downwards. This symbolized ascent to heaven or descent to hell.

In Attis, a bull was slaughtered while on a perforated platform. The animal's blood flowed down over an initiate who stood in a pit under the platform. The believer was then considered to have been "born again." Poor people could only afford a sheep, and so were literally washed in the blood of the lamb. This practice was interpreted symbolically by Christians.

There were many additional points of similarity between Mithraism and Christianity. 2 St. Augustine even declared that the priests of Mithraism worshiped the same God as he did:

Followers of both religions celebrated a ritual meal involving bread. It was called a missa in Latin or mass in English.

Both the Catholic church and Mithraism had a total of seven sacraments.

Epiphany, JAN-6, was originally the festival in which the followers of Mithra celebrated the visit of the Magi to their newborn god-man. The Christian Church took it over in the 9th century.

Reasons for the Pagan-Christian similarities:

There are many possible explanations of the similarities between earlier Pagan and later Christian beliefs, practices, and the lives of their god-men:

• Christians copied Pagans: This is perhaps the most obvious theory. Celsus was a Platonist and polemical writer against Christianity who lived in the late 2nd century CE According to Freke & Gandy, he "complained that this recent religion [of Christianity} was only a pale reflection" of Pagan belief. 3 According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Celsus pointed out that Christianity copied the concepts of others. Christian "...ideas concerning the origin of the universe, etc., are common to all peoples and to the wise men of antiquity."4 Many modern-day writers and theologians have accepted this theory. 3,5,6,7
• bullet Satan did it to deceive: Various early church writers, such as Irenaeus (Bishop of Lyons; circa 120 CE to ?) Justin Martyr (Christian apologist; 100 to 165), Tertullian (Christian theologian; circa 160 to 220 +) concluded that the Pagan/Christian similarities were a Satanic attempt at "diabolical mimicry." Satan was said to have use "plagiarism by anticipation." That is, the Devil made a pre-emptive strike against the gospel stories centuries before Jesus was born. The reason was to confuse the public into thinking that Jesus was merely a copy of previous god-men. The goal was to demolish the credibility of Christianity in the people's eyes.

• It was a type of prophecy: Other Christian writers have concluded that the Mysteries were a type of pre-echo of Jesus' life -- "somewhat like premonitions or prophecies." 3

• Christianity accepted Pagan mythology as literal truth of real events: Authors Freke & Gandy have concluded that the original, main Christian movement was Gnostic Christianity. They kept their inner mysteries secret, revealing them only to those who have been initiated into their branch of the Christian faith. 3 Some early non-Gnostic, "literalist" Christians were unaware of the inner mysteries of Gnosticism. They came to accept the Gnostic outer, public, mysteries and their myth of a god-man savior as an actual description of the historical Jesus. The literalist Christians, being ignorant of the inner mysteries, did not realize that the god-man story was only a legend about a mythical being. Decades later, literalist Christianity became the dominant movement. They oppressed and exterminated the Gnostics, their rituals, and their knowledge. A few Gnostics survived to the present day. The movement is currently experiencing rapid growth.

• Coincidences: These points of similarity could have been coincidental. There are many cases in comparative religion where similar beliefs or practices are seen in two unrelated religions. The pyramid structures in Egypt are like those in Mexico. Yet most archaeologists believe that there is no link between the countries; the shapes were chosen independently. In ancient times, the only way to create a really large structure was to pile stones on top of each other in the form of a pyramid. Similarly, almost all religions share an Ethic of Reciprocity, like the Golden Rule. Still, the almost 200 precise matches between the events in the lives of Jesus and Horus, and the 346 "striking analogies between Christ and Chrishna" 6 would seem to make this theory unlikely.

• Reverse copying: A strong case can be made that wholesale copying of beliefs and rituals by various religions has occurred in the past. However, as noted above, some Christian beliefs and practices may have stolen by the followers of Mithra from their Christian rivals rather than vice versa. This theory might have some validity with respect to Mithraism. However, it cannot explain the stories of the life of Horus which proceeded Jesus' ministry in the first century CE by a few thousand years.

• Forgeries: Some have suggested that ancient evidence of Pagan god-men living similar lives to Jesus prior to the first century CE is a gigantic hoax. Anti-Christian religious historians and archaeologists have simply created fictional sets of religious beliefs, promoted them as accurate representations of ancient religions, and have perpetrated a massive hoax. This also is unlikely. The original source material is still available for academics to check. Someone by now would have written a book exposing the hoax; it would have become a best-seller.

Implications of the Pagan-Christian similarities

Conservative Christians accept the inerrancy and inspiration of the Bible. The writings of the authors of the gospels are without error. The gospels describe the life of Jesus with precision. Thus ancient Pagan practices in the Middle East and around the Mediterranean are of no concern to the believer. They cannot impact on the credibility of the Bible which is God's word.

To some liberal Christians, the Pagan-Christian parallels are convincing proof that much of the magical components of the gospels are of Pagan origin: the virgin birth, bringing dead people back to life, the many miraculous healings, exorcisms, transfiguration, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, Jesus' anticipated return to judge humanity, etc. These stories were derived from Pagan material that had been circulating for centuries when Jesus was born. Except for the occasional coincidence, that material cannot refer to real events in Jesus' life. Many key Christian beliefs have to be questioned and perhaps abandoned.

One comforting factor may be a recognition that some of the basic teachings of Christianity and some of the traditionally accepted events of Jesus' life may actually be over 4,500 years old, grounded in the pre-history of humanity. Another is that, when we strip away the miraculous and supernatural legends in the gospels which came from Pagan sources, we are left with the natural. What remains is a story of an itinerant Jewish teacher who taught through parables and by example. It is the core teachings of Jesus which emerge from the gospels -- undiluted by Pagan material.


References:

1. J. Goodwin, "Mystery Religions of the Ancient World," Thames & Hudson, (1981), Page 28. Quoted in Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy, "The Jesus Mysteries: Was the 'Original Jesus' a Pagan God?" Acacia Press, (1999), Page 49. Read reviews or order this book safely from Amazon.com online book store
2. "Mithra," Barbara G. Walker, "The Woman's encyclopedia of myths and secrets," Harper & Row, (1996), Pages 663 to 665. Read reviews or order this book
3. Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy, "The Jesus Mysteries." Cited above.
4. "Celsus the Platonist," The Catholic Encyclopedia, at: NEW ADVENT: Home
5. Acharya S, "The Christ conspiracy: the greatest story ever sold," Read reviews or order this book "...an enormous amount of startling evidence to demonstrate that Christianity and the story of Jesus Christ were created by members of various secret societies, mystery schools and religions in order to unify the Roman Empire under one state religion. In making such a fabrication, this multinational cabal drew upon a multitude of myths and rituals that already existed long before the Christian era, and reworked them for centuries into the story and religion passed down today."
6. Kersey Graves, "The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors," Adventures Unlimited Press, Chapter 32, Page 279. (1875; Reprinted 2001). Read reviews or order this book safely from Amazon.com online book store.
7. Tom Harpur, "The Pagan Christ; Recovering the Lost Light," Thomas Allen, (2004). ARead reviews or order this book.

Parallels between the Christian gospels and Pagan mythology

JAD_333

You're still missing my point. The structure and practices of the organization and the content of the message are completely separate. While I don't think you meant to disparage Catholicism or any of its christian derivations, your characterization of Catholicism as a collection of pagan rituals marked marked by the selling of dispensations and Roman-type structure is wide of the mark. However, if you were applying those characteristics to the Catholic Church (the temporal organization), I would agree with you.

What one must appreciate is that an original body of teaching inspires its original followers to organize a bricks and mortar system and a personnel structure to widen its reach and pass it along to future generations. Over time, the system evolves. There are power stuggles, disagreements, recruitment problems, financial shortages, and so on.

Pagan rituals found their way into the system because certain pagan groups were allowed to keep some of their rituals and festivals when they converted. You can see a lot of that in South America where, for example, Peruvian natives continue to celebrate ancient Inca fertility rites. But in spite of it all, the imperfect organization continues to carry the original message fairly intact from one generation to the other.

You can appreciate the message without tolerating the messenger. Many of those who don't appreciate the message, attempt to disparage it by attacking the messenger. I don't know where you stand in this regard. If you are merely poking around in history, that's fine, but you should at least be clear as to whether you are speaking of the message or the messenger.

chankya

I'm pretty sure the Roman college of priests was not required to be celibate. JC surely was not. And he was Pontifex Maximus after 63BCE. Only the vestal virgins who tended the fires of Vesta fit the bill.

Not to take away from your message but just pointing out what I thought was an error.

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"Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides