The accuracy of the Bible - Page 5

dave lukins · 09-14-2007, 10:03 AM

Water into Wine eh! Is he by any chance going to Scarbourgh?

JAD_333 · 09-14-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

Expat,

People worship Jesus because that is what he wanted. Roman records I already listed show conclusively that early Christians who knew him and the apostles were willing to die for thier belief that he was God.

Are you sure about the worship thing? I don't know of any NT quote where Jesus asks people to worship him. He taught, he revealed, he extolled the higher inner man.

Kansas Bear · 09-14-2007, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Are you sure about the worship thing? I don't know of any NT quote where Jesus asks people to worship him. He taught, he revealed, he extolled the higher inner man.

Here's where the interpretation gets a little "fuzzy"....

Quote:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. -- John 14:6

JAD_333 · 09-14-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

Jesus was real, no doubt about that but (and people will hate me for saying this) he was never a christian! He was a practising Jew for all his long life. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Saint Paul was responsible for founding christianity and thus creating a new religion.

Now I think we should jam our tin hats on, look for cover and expect INCOMING!

This old man doesn't hate you... I just want to point out that you are in danger of becoming dogmatic.

You're right, Jesus was very much a Jew and I am convinced he thought of himself as a Jew right to the end (which if one is a true believer is never, but I digress).

However, what's all this about Jesus not being a christain? How could he not be a christian if from him eminated the teaching that makes one a christian.

I'd agree if you meant that Jesus probably didn't intend to create a new religion, but rather wanted to "clean up" and reinvigorate Jewish life as it was then. The label "christian", in that case, would have had no meaning while he was roaming the countryside.

Afterall, as you well know, the word come from cristos, the annointed one. How people interpreted annointed then and now might be different. However, there's no question his message set him apart from the average Jew at the time, and so he and his followers merited some sort of label, hence christian, follower of the annointed one, works just fine.

JAD_333 · 09-14-2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Bear

Here's where the interpretation gets a little "fuzzy"....

Quote:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. -- John 14:6

KC: That depends on one's understanding of his teaching. To an esoteric christian "I" is the inner being, and one comes to God through inner work and a correct appreciation of what derails one's work. Recall Jesus' condemnation of people who are like "whited sepulchres" all outward practice and show and no inner life to match the outer.

Jesus was merely saying that you cannot reach a higher state if you place greater value in worldly interests. But he also said love everyone which simply means not everyone is after a higher state. So, don't condemn people who aren't working at it, just be careful of people who pretend to be.

glyn · 09-14-2007, 13:42 PM

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAD_333

This old man doesn't hate you... I just want to point out that you are in danger of becoming dogmatic.

As a dog lover I'm proud to be called dogmatic

You're right, Jesus was very much a Jew and I am convinced he thought of himself as a Jew right to the end (which if one is a true believer is never, but I digress).

However, what's all this about Jesus not being a christain? How could he not be a christian if from him eminated the teaching that makes one a christian.

Ah, but did it really, truly? Jesus was an Essene priest. What marked him out as divine and the others 'also-rans'? John the Baptist was almost certainly the leader of the Essenes and He and Jesus had disputes that were recorded in the DSS. Both at one time were thought to be the Messiah.

I'd agree if you meant that Jesus probably didn't intend to create a new religion, but rather wanted to "clean up" and reinvigorate Jewish life as it was then.

Bingo. Dead centre on target. The Essenes were much favoured by Herod the Great. Through the Figtree and the Vine organisations set up to keep Diaspora jews in the faith, money was rolling in. When the Essene missionaries recruited non-jews to a simplified (and gentler) set of rules the money started pouring in. Again its in the DSS.

The label "christian", in that case, would have had no meaning while he was roaming the countryside.

Jesus spent much of his life in religious institutions and wasn't well travelled (for those days) until he became much older. It is known that he went to Rome and Crete.

Afterall, as you well know, the word come from cristos, the annointed one. How people interpreted annointed then and now might be different. However, there's no question his message set him apart from the average Jew at the time, and so he and his followers merited some sort of label, hence christian, follower of the annointed one, works just fine.

glyn · 09-14-2007, 13:49 PM

From Kansas Bear

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. -- John 14:6

What this meant at the time was Jesus was assuming the roles of three elders in his church who had been known as The Way, The Truth and The Life respectively. It so enraged the Sanhedrin that this 'upstart' was changing the long established rules that they resolved to get rid of him and events followed very quickly on to the betrayal to the Romans.

sealion · 09-14-2007, 16:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

From Kansas Bear

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. -- John 14:6

What this meant at the time was Jesus was assuming the roles of three elders in his church who had been known as The Way, The Truth and The Life respectively. It so enraged the Sanhedrin that this 'upstart' was changing the long established rules that they resolved to get rid of him and events followed very quickly on to the betrayal to the Romans.

Dear mister glyn as far as i know you are Brittish even if your flag supports England alone . I would like to know where did you get those kind of knowledge and when it was get into a writen form . you see i have my doubts about the translation on books which were written the same time or the same century jesus was living . As about simon you refer to , i have to mention that he was from Cyprus and to be more accurate from kyrenia (this explain the second part of his his name ) this is something you didnt mention so you make me to believe that you are an easy believer who likes to have something against the formal . About judas iskariotis , i believe noone needs cv for him.he took money to give away his lord just as those who wrote the book you are saying about under the circumstances they wrote it . No one needs to get reminded about the church of englad and tries given away for autonomy back in those times , nor about kings who tried to put themselves as leaders of the church . England was filled up with many books such the one you are saying about just for the case of having her own church , remember and the problem you had with the saint of ireland , you see you may claim you know the truth , but you cant hint your history

glyn · 09-14-2007, 18:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sealion

Dear mister glyn as far as i know you are Brittish even if your flag supports England alone .

Not entirely true. The flag of England is a red cross on a white background. Look again at my avatar and note a white cross on a black background. It is the Cornish flag. The English, Scottish, Welch, Cornish and Manx are known collectively as British. You are, I assume a Greek Cypriot. There are also Turkish Cypriots. You may consider yourselves to be very different but both parties are Cypriots.

I would like to know where did you get those kind of knowledge and when it was get into a writen form . you see i have my doubts about the translation on books which were written the same time or the same century jesus was living .

The books have been around in one form or another for quite a time, but it was the study of the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran and compared with the Nag Hamadi scrolls found earlier in Egypt that led to a number of scholarly works to be published from about 1990.

As about simon you refer to , i have to mention that he was from Cyprus and to be more accurate from kyrenia (this explain the second part of his his name )

When stationed in Cyprus during the EOKA troubles I spent 10 days R&R at the Coer d'Leon hotel in Kyrenia.

this is something you didnt mention so you make me to believe that you are an easy believer who likes to have something against the formal .

If you think that then you are missing the point entirely.

About judas iskariotis , i believe noone needs cv for him.he took money to give away his lord just as those who wrote the book you are saying about under the circumstances they wrote it .

You do have a simple and naive faith and apparently believe every word your priests tell you. Stay that way by all means. Do not butt in on things you do not understand.

No one needs to get reminded about the church of englad and tries given away for autonomy back in those times , nor about kings who tried to put themselves as leaders of the church .

I think I know what you are trying to say, in your limited knowledge of the language, but what has that got to do with the present subject?

England was filled up with many books such the one you are saying about just for the case of having her own church , remember and the problem you had with the saint of ireland , you see you may claim you know the truth , but you cant hint your history

You have lost me there altogether. Never mind, eh?

**TopHatter** · 09-14-2007, 21:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

Lets look at the central claim about Jesus by modern Christians-

Jesus is God and Christ

This is of course an expression of the Nicene Creed. However is the Creed accurate and truthful to the original Christian beliefs? Or did Constantine corrupt it?

Absolutely correct on the second mark. It's an expression of the Nicene Creed, not a Biblical teaching.

Look at most of the religions of the world: You'll find triads of gods aplenty that the Nicene Creed co-opted to allowed the pagan tribes to more easily embrace Christendom.

Christmas is another example. A pagan holiday coverted to "Christian" use. It's sure as hell not the birthdate of Jesus Christ, no matter what that commercial slogan says. Even religious theologians will admit that Jesus was not born on December 25th.

So why is his supposed date of birth celebrated on December 25? Hmmmmm.....

ExNavyAmerican · 09-14-2007, 22:27 PM

TopHatter;

You're right. Christmas, Easter, and other pagan holidays were adopted by Constantine at the Council of Nicaea. Christmas was the date emperor Aurelian used to dedicate the temple of the sun god, whom he claimed to be descended from. Easter was a pagan festival, and the way we celebrate today was the way pagan Romans used it minus the religious significance.

Christianity was severely corrupted by Constantine, and that's where we get Catholicism.

But your statement denying the deity of Christ is heretical, and obviously ignorant. Tell me, have you read the Bible, or was that statement just a talking point?

Here is a verse that proves the deity of Christ:

"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he had not only broken that sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making himself equal with God"-John 5:18

Verse 23 of the same chapter:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father."

And your reference that the term "Jesus Christ" was coined by the council of Nicaea:

"Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ." -Matthew 16:20

JAD_333 · 09-14-2007, 22:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopHatter

Absolutely correct on the second mark. It's an expression of the Nicene Creed, not a Biblical teaching.

Does that make the claim that Jesus is God untrue?

Quote:

Look at most of the religions of the world: You'll find triads of gods aplenty that the Nicene Creed co-opted to allowed the pagan tribes to more easily embrace Christendom

.

Most of the religions, if not all, contain the same message, but adapted to the culture in which they arose. There can be, afterall, only one truth. Triads, law of three, action-reaction-neutralizing, trinity...it's all the same no matter where you find it.

Quote:

Christmas is another example. A pagan holiday coverted to "Christian" use. It's sure as hell not the birthdate of Jesus Christ, no matter what that commercial slogan says. Even religious theologians will admit that Jesus was not born on December 25th. So why is his supposed date of birth celebrated on December 25? Hmmmmm.....

Got to have a BD.

Why? So we can receive God's gift to us? The winter solstice by another calendar? Who knows. It symbolizes birth and Easter symbolizes rising. Christians appropriated a lot of pagan practices. Did oyu know that churches came from the ancient Eqyptians...they had these places where the religious books were read non-stop and Eqyptians folk could go there for a little remedial learning. Anyway, who could read all those bird symbols.

ExNavyAmerican · 09-14-2007, 22:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Bear

Glyn,

The bible is a collection of writings that have been authorized by the Church(Catholic) in the final canon. There are numerous books that were NOT allowed in the final canon.

Amazon.com: THE LOST BOOKS OF THE BIBLE: BEING THE GOSPELS, EPISTLES, AND OTHER PIECES NOW EXTANT ATTRIBUTED IN THE FIRST FOUR CENTURIES..: Books: Author Unknown

Here's the Catholic say on the bible:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Bible

The different bibles:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Versions of the Bible

Not entirely true. The Protestant reformation also accepted the canon as divine.

JAD_333 · 09-14-2007, 23:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

.As a dog lover I'm proud to be called dogmatic.

Then consider it a compliment.

Quote:

Ah, but did it really, truly? Jesus was an Essene priest.

There is evidence he spent time with the Essenes. We don't really know anything about his travels from age 12 to 30, when he emerges from a retreat in the desert and meets John the Baptist at the Jordan.

Quote:

What marked him out as divine and the others 'also-rans'?

You're asking the wrong question. The question is, how did he become divine and the others didn't? You assume the scriptures say he arrived on earth already divine, but that's not what they say. The scriptures are about HOW anyone can become divine. At least, I can assert that and have it be as valid as any other explanation.

Quote:

John the Baptist was almost certainly the leader of the Essenes and He and Jesus had disputes that were recorded in the DSS.

You have the translation?

Quote:

Both at one time were thought to be the Messiah.

But not at the same time. John was better known but he was by all accounts a railer, not uncommon among traveling preachers.

Quote:

Jesus spent much of his life in religious institutions and wasn't well travelled (for those days) until he became much older. It is known that he went to Rome and Crete.

That's interesting. Crete wasn't that far off. But Rome...what's your source?

__________________

**TopHatter** · 09-14-2007, 23:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

But your statement denying the deity of Christ is heretical, and obviously ignorant. Tell me, have you read the Bible, or was that statement just a talking point?

My statement and belief is that Jesus is not God, but that he is the Son of God, the Savior of Mankind, as he claimed many times in the Bible.

In fact, when his apostles asked when the End Times would come, he freely admitted that no one - not even the Son - knew, but only the Father.

Rather makes it difficult for Jesus to be God if he doesn't know when the End Times will come.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

And your reference that the term "Jesus Christ" was coined by the council of Nicaea:

"Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ." -Matthew 16:20

Umm...exactly when and where did I say that?

That is certainly not something that I believe (that the Nicene council coined the term "Jesus Christ")

09-14-2007, 22:27 PM	#71 (permalink)
ExNavyAmerican *Military Professional* Join Date: 03-02-07 Location: Ningbo, China Posts: 827 Country:	TopHatter; You're right. Christmas, Easter, and other pagan holidays were adopted by Constantine at the Council of Nicaea. Christmas was the date emperor Aurelian used to dedicate the temple of the sun god, whom he claimed to be descended from. Easter was a pagan festival, and the way we celebrate today was the way pagan Romans used it minus the religious significance. Christianity was severely corrupted by Constantine, and that's where we get Catholicism. But your statement denying the deity of Christ is heretical, and obviously ignorant. Tell me, have you read the Bible, or was that statement just a talking point? Here is a verse that proves the deity of Christ: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he had not only broken that sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making himself equal with God"-John 5:18 Verse 23 of the same chapter: "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father." And your reference that the term "Jesus Christ" was coined by the council of Nicaea: "Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ." -Matthew 16:20 __________________ "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson

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09-14-2007, 10:03 AM	#61 (permalink)
dave lukins *Military Professional* Join Date: 01-04-07 Location: cheshire uk Posts: 4,031 Country:	Water into Wine eh! Is he by any chance going to Scarbourgh?

09-14-2007, 13:49 PM	#67 (permalink)
glyn *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-15-06 Location: Penzance, Cornwall UK Posts: 5,875	From Kansas Bear Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. -- John 14:6 What this meant at the time was Jesus was assuming the roles of three elders in his church who had been known as The Way, The Truth and The Life respectively. It so enraged the Sanhedrin that this 'upstart' was changing the long established rules that they resolved to get rid of him and events followed very quickly on to the betrayal to the Romans.

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