The accuracy of the Bible - Page 4

JAD_333 · 09-13-2007, 22:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expat Canuck

I just am a history nut and who doesn't like a good conspiracy theory? Honestly though the time of Jesus had a lot going on and bible stories are great stories. Then you hear of something that supports or puts into question parts of the bible which make it even more exciting.

Got to admit I share your enthusiasm for history, no matter the subject. You get to talking about Jesus history and people think you're going religious on them. Hell, we live in a Judeo-Christian civilization, and damn near every law and moral code we live by comes from that tradition.

Quote:

See questiosn questions questions. Long story short I know SFA and neither does anyone else. We where not there and there are too many conflicts to ever know the truth and until someone makes a time machine no one will.

Exactly right. But if you really--I mean really--delve into one book of the NT, Matthew's, and stay with it you'll start to see the bigger picture. His narrative is extremely economical but exact. The way I did it was trying to write a film script about it. (I wrote for some minor TV show back in the late 1960s and entertained thoughts of becoming a movie script writer.)

It all started one day when I was reading Matthew's gospel and I was suddenly struck by how it parsed like a script, so I transcribed it into script format, not changing a word of dialogue but filling in scene direction and hitorical notes as I went. The first script didn't work and so I redid it and redid it until one day I could feel the characters and the developing action, and I began to understand what an engineering feat Jesus pulled off and how everyone played their part to the hilt. I say that with complete respect for Jesus.

I also discovered that the english NT has a few serious mistakes in it. A couple of examples: Three times Jesus asks Peter if he "loves" him; three times Peter answers he loves Jesus. Why three times? Because in the original Greek text the Greek word "love" wasn't used three times. One of the words for love in the Greek was "self love". So, Jesus asked Peter one of the 3 times, in effect, "do you love me only because I love you?"

Another bad translation that really messes up Christians is "sin". It's the Roman word for "without"... same in Spanish. It was used to translate a word in the Greek NT that is an archery term for missing the target. Why did they use that term in the original Greek text? Because it describes the situation of a person who is sincerely striving to reach a higher state but loses sight of his goal and stumbles, e.g., daydreams about owning a BMW.

Sinning or missing the target requires a course correction
when reaching for a higher state, else the jig is up. In time, the idea disintergrated into major and minor infractions for which you were sentenced so many Our Fathers and Hail Marys, got forgiveness and then went right back to do the same things. But no longer was the reason explained. If you're not working for a higher state, looking at Mary Jane's behind is no sin.

texasjohn · 09-13-2007, 23:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

That is how 'John' reported it in the gospel ascribed to him.
It is not what happened. The three who were crucified together were 'Jesus', 'Judas Iscariot' and 'Simon'. Describing the other two as common criminals is at best contentious as they were all in the same religious sect. The Jewish Council was the Sanhedrin and they were violently opposed to the sect. It was they who called in Pilate. All three survived the crucifixion due to the timing of the punishment. Jesus appeared dead but the other 2 had their legs broken and all three were thrown into a latrine as Judaic law would not permit them to remain on the cross so close to the sabbath. Simon was a Magi and administered medicine to Jesus, reviving him. Judas was thrown from the latrine into the adjoining ravine where he 'burst assunder'. Jesus was soon able to walk again but Simon (at this time probably his closest friend) needed tending until his broken bones healed. Simons standing rose considerably for saving Jesus from apparent death. In fact it had been arranged for somebody to administer a drug to him when on the cross by means of a sponge to the mouth. Jesus of course was in on the plot, so took it even though it tasted foul.

Glyn,

Do you have any sources ( links, books etc.) to substantiate your claim?

Anything to validate your version of what REALLY happened? Just curious.

Feanor · 09-13-2007, 23:48 PM

The Bible is about as accurate as the California A.P. U.S. History Textbook used in CA highschools. You need to know it for the test, but can ignore it when it comes to research papers.

texasjohn · 09-13-2007, 23:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor

The Bible is about as accurate as the California A.P. U.S. History Textbook used in CA highschools. You need to know it for the test, but can ignore it when it comes to research papers.

Maybe so, I'm curious as to where Glyn got his version of the story!

Dwarven Pirate · 09-14-2007, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texasjohn

Maybe so, I'm curious as to where Glyn got his version of the story!

Me too.

Here is a nice resource for this sort of investigation tho:

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

glyn · 09-14-2007, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

That is nonsensical, the early Christians made it a point of faith not to deny Christ or their relationship with him. The Apostles and their disciples taught and traveled openly.

Hardly nonsensical when in the ministry period your land was under Roman occupation and the Sanhedrin regarded you as heretics and terrorists. How do you think 'Judas Iscariot' got his name? The Romans named 'Judah' 'sicarius' after the curved knife favoured by assassins in Judea. ( the words scythe and sickle have the same root ). The NT only ever referred to the Romans as 'kittim' and the early translators got his name wrong.

glyn · 09-14-2007, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texasjohn

Glyn,

Do you have any sources ( links, books etc.) to substantiate your claim?

Anything to validate your version of what REALLY happened? Just curious.

Oh come on TJ!

I know that I am skating on thin ice and I have purposely put myself up as an Aunt Sally for anyone to aim at. May I recommend out of all the books I've read that you read those of Dr Thiering I've already mentioned as being the most important and helpful? The fact is the bible is wrong for a great variety of reasons. I am not pontificating here, I'm in it to learn from others, but I am not going to listen to some brainwashed drongos droning on about their interpretations from what was a compromised source to begin with. I seek facts while they are content to repose in faith.

glyn · 09-14-2007, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwarven Pirate

Me too.

Here is a nice resource for this sort of investigation tho:

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

The listing gives many alternatives. Which do any of you WANT to believe? Why? Have you read the Apochrypha? Why were certain gospels not used in the NT, but the OT is there in its entirety? This is fertile ground for discussion. Of course, the fundamentalists are unlikely to agree!

Kansas Bear · 09-14-2007, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

The listing gives many alternatives. Which do any of you WANT to believe? Why? Have you read the Apochrypha? Why were certain gospels not used in the NT, but the OT is there in its entirety?

Actually, most Protestant bibles do not have Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and First and Second Maccabees and parts of books Esther 10:4-16:24, and Daniel 3:24-90; 13:1-14:42 which are not found in the Jewish editions of the Old Testament.

Callmecur · 09-14-2007, 08:57 AM

Has anyone ever considered the 'bible' may have been written by an educated person with a good sense of humour and a talent as a great story teller. Artistic licence has always existed and this great story teller may have seen, say, a spiritualist medium 'healing' people and decided to write a book about that person but expanded upon what he actually saw.

Let's be real about things like turning water into wine? - the work of a talented illusionist - raising from the dead? - he came out of a deep coma after being left for dead. The bible is an excellent history book but nothing more.

I was brought up CofE but throughout life I have seen things for what they are and it makes me laugh when I see and hear people of all religions who are so forthright in trying to persuade us that there is a god and there was a man called Jesus - so much so that some religions will encourage the death of others to make us believe what they believe in. Grown up men? I don't think so.

glyn · 09-14-2007, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Bear

Actually, most Protestant bibles do not have Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and First and Second Maccabees and parts of books Esther 10:4-16:24, and Daniel 3:24-90; 13:1-14:42 which are not found in the Jewish editions of the Old Testament.

Ain't that the truth, brother?

And the RC version is different again....

glyn · 09-14-2007, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callmecur

Good to see you posting again, Delta Hotel

Let's be real about things like turning water into wine? - the work of a talented illusionist - raising from the dead? - he came out of a deep coma after being left for dead.

It seems the man was living and breathing all the while but had been called 'dead' as a punishment by the Essenes. It was worse than being sent to Coventry. Nobody would speak to him or acknowledge him in any way. Jesus got the punishment cancelled thus 'Lazarus' was 'returned from the dead' and permitted to take his place in their closed society.

The bible is an excellent history book but nothing more.

I see it differently. It is very difficult to use as an authoritive history as the dates so seldom agree with other sources.

I was brought up CofE but throughout life I have seen things for what they are and it makes me laugh when I see and hear people of all religions who are so forthright in trying to persuade us that there is a god and there was a man called Jesus - so much so that some religions will encourage the death of others to make us believe what they believe in. Grown up men? I don't think so.

Jesus was real, no doubt about that but (and people will hate me for saying this) he was never a christian! He was a practising Jew for all his long life. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Saint Paul was responsible for founding christianity and thus creating a new religion.

Now I think we should jam our tin hats on, look for cover and expect INCOMING!

Kansas Bear · 09-14-2007, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

Ain't that the truth, brother?

And the RC version is different again....

Quite correct.

Callmecur · 09-14-2007, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glyn

Jesus was real, no doubt about that but (and people will hate me for saying this) he was never a christian! He was a practising Jew for all his long life. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Saint Paul was responsible for founding christianity and thus creating a new religion.

Now I think we should jam our tin hats on, look for cover and expect INCOMING!

That makes sense Glyn, if he did exist in that part of the world then he almost certainly would have been a Jew - it is only the christian church who turned him into a christian. Wow, that was a low one.....

tankie · 09-14-2007, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

Is it really? It was written by people who knew Jesus or who knew the apostles.

I said IF it was written 60 years after his death , its obviously open to distortion Zraver, as anyone who knew him and was mixing with him as a young man , they would have been about 90 years old by the time it /they wrote the bible , most people of that age are senile or not far off ,( but why 60 years later , why not while he was alive and fresh in peoples minds ?) and im no great expert on the bible or its history ,as i cant and wont argue about something that can neither be proved or disproved , my statement was a simple one , after 60 years the facts would have been distorted , to my mind anyway, and i must admit i found callmecurs statement a good one , as it cant be disproved can it , but what i cant get round is how anyone can be misled into believing the virgin birth , yea right , hang on in there Joseph , you dork

Please understand im not having a pop off at religeon im just questioning some given facts that to me are ludicrous .

Have a good day , and wherever / whatever you do may your particular God go with you .

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09-13-2007, 23:48 PM	#48 (permalink)
Feanor Banished Join Date: 06-12-07 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,385 Country:	The Bible is about as accurate as the California A.P. U.S. History Textbook used in CA highschools. You need to know it for the test, but can ignore it when it comes to research papers.

09-14-2007, 08:57 AM	#55 (permalink)
Callmecur *Military Professional* Join Date: 01-09-07 Location: Eastern England Posts: 225 Country:	Has anyone ever considered the 'bible' may have been written by an educated person with a good sense of humour and a talent as a great story teller. Artistic licence has always existed and this great story teller may have seen, say, a spiritualist medium 'healing' people and decided to write a book about that person but expanded upon what he actually saw. Let's be real about things like turning water into wine? - the work of a talented illusionist - raising from the dead? - he came out of a deep coma after being left for dead. The bible is an excellent history book but nothing more. I was brought up CofE but throughout life I have seen things for what they are and it makes me laugh when I see and hear people of all religions who are so forthright in trying to persuade us that there is a god and there was a man called Jesus - so much so that some religions will encourage the death of others to make us believe what they believe in. Grown up men? I don't think so.

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