AmosGraber

As a person of faith and a person involved in intensive historical study, I believe the Bible along with other ancient texts can be read two different ways. As a Christian I can read in relation to my faith. However as an historian, along with other ancient faith based texts, it can be read in the context of having a window into the ancient world.

For example the Bible is a great historical family tree; in reading the Bible you can begin; along with other primary and secondary sources to trace the migrations of ancient tribes as they moved along the great mid Asian rift.

A good example of this discipline is in the examination of the references of Gog and Magog in the Bible. Ezekiel 38:2, “Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Rosh, of Meshech and Tubal.” Genesis 10 is known as “The Table of Nations”. Magog, Tubal, and Meshech are all described as being the son of Japheth who is the son of Noah. The importance of this information is the descendents of these three sons became known as the tribe of Magog, the tribe of Tubal, the tribe of Meshech.

Herodotus, the ancient Greek historian, mentions the tribe of Meshech and Tubal as being the people named the Samaritans and Muscovites, who lived at the time in the ancient province of Pontus in northern Asia Minor. Josephus, the ancient Jewish historian of the first century, said the people of his day known as the Moschevi and Thobelites were founded by Meshech and Tubal. Josephus said, “Magog is called the Scythians by the Greeks.” Josephus also said these people lived in the northern regions above the Caucasus Mountains.

Pliny, the ancient Roman historian, said, “Hierapolis taken by the Scythians was afterward called Magog.” Pliny shows that the Scythians were identified by their ancient tribal name. Most historians believe the Scythians to be the main part of the people who make up modern day Russia. William Gesenius, who was a Hebrew historian during the 19th century said, “Meshech was the founder of the Moschi, a barbarous people, who dwelt in the Moschian mountains.” Gesenius also believes the Greek name, “Moschi, derived from the Hebrew name Meshech, which he believes is the origins of the name of the city of Moscow. Gesenius believes, “Tubal is the son of Rapheth, founder of the Tibereni, a people dwelling on the Black Sea to the west of Moschi.” His conclusion is that these people make up the modern day Russian people.

This is just one example of how ancient texts can be used as a window into the ancient world. The Bible, with close study, can offer many great insights into the ancient world, as well as being a piece of religious faith.

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tomspug

Apparently, the original poster doesn't have any sources for any of the things he is saying. He's just spouting out things he heard on the internet or youtube without any frame of reference, historical evidence, or the opinion of a qualified historian.

glyn

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Herodotus

Why is this thread even relevant to international conflict or geopolitics? The last religious war ended in 1648, since that time the international order has been defined by nation-states (first empires then individual states). Topics on religion or non-religion are interesting, but there are plenty of boards that promote those topics; both atheist and religious.

If this thread has some relevancy to ancient geopolitics, or a new take on the modern international order than the OP could maybe tie that into the thread. But if it is just going to be pro-Christian, or anti-Christian, or pro-Bible, or anti-Bible, or what does the Bible really say or not say, etc. than why should we care? For those who believe, they will believe, for those who do not, will not; and this thread will not change anybody's minds and may just harden positions on both sides as everyone tries to advance his or her agenda.

dave lukins

[quote=Herodotus;474259]Why is this thread even relevant to international conflict or geopolitics? The last religious war ended in 1648, since that time the international order has been defined by nation-states (first empires then individual states). Topics on religion or non-religion are interesting, but there are plenty of boards that promote those topics; both atheist and religious. QUOTE]

Yes, the thread is International conflict, however a lot of conflict has been started by or caused by "Religion", hence the posts

glyn

Herodotus

[quote=dave lukins;474377]
Like I said the Thirty Years' War was the last "religious war", and the Treaty(ies) of Westphalia changed the international order; giving states that whole internal sovereignty thing So my confusion arises from is this thread related in anyway to those religious wars of the past (the Crusades, or the 100 year period between Martin Luther's 95 theses and the outbreak of the 30 Years' War if one were to look at specific Christian wars), or is it primarily focused on the merits or demerits of belief in the Bible?

Herodotus

Okay, well I didn't know all that; people quoting "holy works", etc. I have no problem with you being an atheist; my family is mixed with believers and non-believers. I know the Bible has many, many inconsistencies, so it may be good to shine a light on it.

dave lukins

[quote=Herodotus;474518]AmosGrabber started the Thread and if you flip back to it you can read his initial thinking on this.. By coincidence the name Herodotus is mentioned

Herodotus

[quote=dave lukins;474541]Cool, Thanks.

tankie

Wars = religeon = wars.

Once again , was it not Pope leo the tenth who allegedly said ,

THIS MYTH OF CHRIST HAS SERVED US WELL

but people will still try to debate , argue , and kill over it .

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TANKIE , WITHOUT WAX

texacali

This is an interesting thread. We seem to agree that the events discussed ocurred at historically verifiable places. The debate appears centered on the divinity of Jesus.
What I have not seen in the discussion so far is the difference He brought to the equation, that is, forgiveness of one's enemies. To my thinking this was a major departure from the OT rule of an eye for an eye.
The OT is full of all manner of human weaknesses, to wit: the deception of Esau, spies sent into Canaan by Joshua, the selling into slavery of Joseph by his brothers, and last, David's sending Uriah into battle while covetting his wife. Yes, there are more examples, however the point I am trying to make is that it is a human history we are reading. With the passage of two millenia there will be errors in translation, there will be subordination of the message to suit the powers that be; however, the message will retain its' essential truth.
Few are those who can cast the first stone.

JAD_333

The argument over the accuracy of the Bible, most notably the New Testament (NT), is a tempest in a teacup to esoteric Christians, because strict accuracy isn't critical to them. Rather, they see it as something that historians, both serious and amateur, dither over, never coming to an agreement over what is authentic NT.

On the whole people who argue over the accuracy of the NT are concerned with literal meanings which is a totally different POV from esoteric Christians. Atheists are odd fellows in this pillow fight because they have no stake in the NT's verasity. To them it is a questionable series of events and implausible miracles. Their own belief system won't allow any other view. I hesitate to say that they need to knock down the NT to justify their atheism, but their passion for refutation seems odd at times.

The reason esoteric Christians view the NT as a guideline or a blueprint, if you will, is that it suits their goal perfectly. Even if one of them were to agree that certain facts may not be historically accurate, nothing would change for them. I'll try to explain in a minute.

Back to motivations. People who argue the NT is missing key parts or that its existing parts are inaccurate don't understand why it is perfect for some people, inaccuracies and all. When they tick off the inconsistencies and alternate versions they sometimes imply amazement that anyone can gain
anything by accepting the NT just as it is today.

They also have another bad habit. They paint a picture of the early church as a hornets nest of competing authors, ignored truth-bearers, and prelates pulling rank to suppress the truth in order to inflate the image of Jesus. And what is the proof of this? Why, of course, the proof is the very existence of the hundreds of contradictory tidbits, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and unauthorized versions of the Gospels. In law, you first begin by proving allegations, not accepting their mere existence as proof they are correct.

The upshot of the picture they paint is that they turn people away from the NT, people who might have otherwise made a study of it and drawn their own conclusions. Pity. But the essential story will continue to be regenerated in other forms, more modern ones, because it is true. That is, it is true for those who seek.

But, let's get back to the main point, that esoteric Jews and Christians derive what they need from the NT just as it is. Their goal is awakening, their own awakening, not yours. If you read the NT carefully you will see the word "awake" mentioned several times at crucial points in the story. And more study will reveal that awakening is a step necessary before joining the Father in Heaven. Don't be put off by those words. All of them are just symbols for propensities which all humans possess at birth. Awakening, Father and Heaven all symbolize ideas connected with the essential aim of the teachings of all major religions, now and in the past, and many, many non-religious philosophies. That is, to guide the seeker to full consciousness. That is the term used today by those who wish to avoid words identified with Sunday school sentimentalism.

I suppose I should stop now. I am not out to win converts or arguments. But just to reiterate my earlier point, esoteric Christians and Jews use the NT or the OT as an allegory which tells them how to attain their innate potential. They rely on an understanding of the symbols and how they relate to their own experience. So, they really don't give a hoot what revisionists, doubting historians and conspiracy theorists say. They have no urge to argue whether Jesus was dead or alive when he came down from the cross.

By the way, esoteric Christians read scriptures from all religions and schools of thought teaching transformation, and learn from them. The allegory is the thing. What is an esoteric Christian? Esoteric means secret. They are Christians who learned what the symbols in the NT mean.

They are well ahead of me, because, personally, I enjoy the historical stuff Glyn and others bring up. Some of it may well be accurate. Who knows? It certainly opens a window on the past for a history junkie like myself.

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Shamus

Well said sir,and in my very humble opinion,very true....left me feeling,well,rather esoteric .

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A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but
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JAD_333

Sometimes I make myself feel rather esoteric as well.