glyn

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Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

Tarek Morgen

I checked about 20 different kind of translations of the bible online (but not in hebrew..since I dont speak it), and and only very few of them mention whales. Often it is something like "big water creature" "being of the sea, big and small" and similar things. But the whales get usually mentioned in the most "popular" version. Like the king bible in english or the Lutherbible in German (though strangly..in the lutherbible they talk of "whalefishes"...)

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uh I might be wrong

Kansas Bear

I'm not religious, by any means, but I think irrational, brainwashed, and delusional is rather derogatory reference to someone's religious beliefs.

True.

Most ancient peoples, have their own stories as to the beginnings of humanity/their people. IIRC, Abraham led his people out of Ur, an area home to numerous empires(Assyrian, Babylonian, Sumerian, Akkadian...). Bringing with him the story of his people. Considering the numerous peoples living in that region of Mesopotamia, stories intermingle and get changed from person to person(oral tradition). Sort of like the stories my grandmother would tell me about her grandfather. Passed down verbally, which each time maybe the story was changed or parts edited out for some reason or another.

Anyway, IIRC the Sumerians had a story about a flood.

Cromwell

I think it is the definition of delusional to believe in that which does not exist.
Have you ever been an Atheist on the receiving end of a fundamentalist's pity?
Has anyone ever said to you: You may not believe in God, but He believes in you.

Respect is a two way street. I am perfectly willing to respect someone's right to believe, so long as the sentiment is reciprocal and my right not to believe is shown equal consideration.

Here in the States, the agenda of religious zealotry has gotten in the way of science. Stem cell research has been made illegal in deference to the wishes of a religious minority, and people will suffer as a result.

I know few Atheists or Agnostics who are trying to cram their beliefs down anyone's throat.
A few inconsiderate adjectives on my part, are hardly worth comment.


-C

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Paranoia is but a heightened state of awareness.

Kansas Bear

Which doesn't happen here. Hence, rule 4.


I've yet to see anyone here directly calling your belief(s), irrational, brainwashed, or delusional.


Except that's not the topic of this thread. Unfortunately, numerous people can not understand the difference between discussing the "accuracy of the bible" and dogma.

That's for the Mods/Admins to decide.

HistoricalDavid

For the harder core of religious believers, it is not only entirely derogatory but also extremely appropriate, and outside a primary school, those are not mutually exclusive.

entropy

Well, atheism is as logically unfounded as any religion. Agnosticism is the only way to go if one goes hardcore mathematical logic.

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If memory serves...

entropy

Sir,

I have tried to contact my old theology teacher with some questions, including that one. He is fluent in all languages of the Bible. If my letter reaches destination, I will be able to answer about whales.

If anyone has any language-related questions, feel free to ask. The "lost in translation" things about the Bible gave me an entirely different look on the book, it is immensely interesting how the book changed when it got translated. I will try to reach the gentleman who taught me theology.

entropy

Whalefish is explainable by the nature of Germanic languages. Walvis is the Dutch word for whale, and I am sure that the suffix -fish in any form was used before they found out that the thing had lungs.

braindead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen
I checked about 20 different kind of translations of the bible online (but not in hebrew..since I dont speak it), and and only very few of them mention whales. Often it is something like "big water creature" "being of the sea, big and small" and similar things. But the whales get usually mentioned in the most "popular" version. Like the king bible in english or the Lutherbible in German (though strangly..in the lutherbible they talk of "whalefishes"...)

Whalefish is explainable by the nature of Germanic languages. Walvis is the Dutch word for whale, and I am sure that the suffix -fish in any form was used before they found out that the thing had lungs.

there was an argument in some books that word ´whale´ and ´whalefish´ is loan from fenno-ugric languages , Sami probably . Because fish is ´kala´ , older vers. ´kalla´ - so theoretically kalla-whalla-whale . ´Whalefish´ is ´vaalaskala´ . Does this argument hold water , I do not know .
Fenno-ugric peoples lived there at least thousand years before any germanic people got here , so could be true.

Anyway , nice little linguistic pecularity .

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JAD_333

Let's get down to business. Here is 'whale' in just about every language in the world. Looks like derivatives of the Greek "balema" are the most common.

walfisk - Logos Dictionary - Logos Translations multilingual dictionary

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To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)

braindead

OK , the argument I presented originally went like this - Scandinavian germanic tribes started using fenno-ugric loan word as a taboo word replacement (as in modern est. word for wolf - ´hunt´in. est. - came from german. ´hund´(dog) ,and has almost replaced the orig. taboo word for wolf -´susi´) . And the word was ´´kala´ , which is recognisable in all fenno-ugric languages . Even in kama language in Altaiy mountains the word is ´kola´ (Collinder). The word dates back around 7000 years , maybe more .
But the point was not the age of the word , but the loan mechanism . Taboo word was used persistantly in connection to hope of catching a big fish or sea animal . So in time the loan word started meaning esp. big catch . Nordic pronounciation of ´kala´ would have looked like ´whala´ . So kala - whala - whale . And it boomeranged back to est. language as ´vaal´ . .

I´m not competent to judge this theory , so I just present it .

Tarek Morgen

I imaged that, but what confused me..it was an overworked edition from 1984. By then they should have kinda found out. I mean correcting this mistake would not have changed anything about the story or the message, now it looks kinda..well stupid.

svs

I just checked the Hebrew text. The words in Hebrew are "Dag Gadol". That just means "big fish". All the traditions about the whale are assumptions on the part of the various translators.

Zinja

My goodness! I can't believe this thread has gone this far. I thought this thread has been abandoned a long while ago. Well, will get some time and do some catching on what has been going on during my 'absence'.