JAD_333

I think there is something in what you. But I wonder if that can be considered why the empire died. There must have been something going wrong long before it got to the point where Romans ceased fighting to keep the empire stong.

I have a vague theory that the Romans labor to build an empire and enjoy the fruits of their labor. Somewhere along the line enjoying the fruits of their labor get the best of them. Gradually they cease rallying to threats to the empire. The army grows weaker. They begin to meet threats from abroad with compromises instead of military force. The barbarians play along awhile but, sensing Rome is weakening, they become more agressive. By the the end, the empire was helpless.

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clackers

I guess it can be tempting to watch I, Claudius, see the supposed decadence of a people too satisfied with having conquered everything from Britain to Syria, and draw conclusions about some sort of weakness of will.

With all that wine, olives, murder, incest, lead in their brains and firestarting, how could they ever get back to the serious business of stabbing enemies and running an empire?

But in fact this is what they did, for another four centuries in the West, and five in the East ... they had a pretty good run!

Polybius

Great power, died due to suicide

Rome was an excellent example

Causes of decay

Lack of trust and confidence in their Culture,
Multiculturism rose while assimilation and stress in Roman identity fell.
Low birth rate, Italy experienced low birth rate among the reasons , birth control practiced by Italians, the army depended increasingly of recruits of dubious loyalty to the Roman cultural-political identity.

Decayed of the middle class , due to cheap labor supply , slavery which polarized society and produced long term economic decline.

Italy from net exporter became a net importer , depending of the Eastern provinces for all kind of supplies, so all the wealth of Rome was sent to pay for products made abroad.
Italy lost her agrarian and manucfactural base
( Sounds familiar to present America yes )

Spiritual vacuum, for many the Old gods and Western religions did not appeal them so the turned to Eastern mysteries religions or Christianity .

The Intellectual and Political Elite glorified the BArbarian as of Nobler soul and better than the sophisticated Roman
( Seems like history repeat itself)

Romans from stoic and patriotic, became self indulgent, reluctant to sacrifices for the motherland and
Soft

Well nothing new under the sun neither then or now ?

astralis

pressure from persia causing a weakness in economy and military + barbarians getting wealthier/stronger from trade with rome + imperial overstretch = uh oh

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Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.

-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

bolo121

Is it just me or....
pressure from persia...check
weakness in economy....check
barbarians getting wealthier/stronger from trade...check
imperial overstretch.....almost there
uh oh......

astralis

bolo,

hhaha, clever, but all of these problems plagued imperial rome for well over two, three hundred years before rome fell...

bolo121

so fingers crossed for the next century or so
And I really must get around to finishing Gibbon one of these days
Beautiful language but so many volumes

astralis

gibbon is the original historian, of course, unfortunately his main argument has long been thrown out. but yes, he makes for good classical reading.

bolo121

so could you tell me what the main schools of thought (among professional historians) are on the decline and fall?

astralis

bolo,

you ain't gonna do the research yourself??

there's a lot of different arguments as to why rome fell. the main schools are, however,

1. romans got effete and weak- "cultural decline"
2. roman army was "barbarized"
3. imperial overstretch
4. synthesis which i wrote above

gibbon's argument is 1., and he blames it on christianity. unfortunately that doesn't explain why the eastern roman empire did so well for so long.

number 2 is also challenged by the eastern roman empire (aka the byzantines). also, roman generals were very clever at using "barbarian" mercenaries against other barbarians, so...

number 3 is more plausible (and is the argument of paul kennedy) but doesn't explain why the roman empire so suddenly contracted.

number 4 is probably the strongest theory of them all, as it makes a synthesis of the best points above, and also concludes that population migration from asia + richer barbarians + roman clumsiness with dealing with said barbarians = angry and capable barbarians ready to roll on rome.

now, sir, where is my tuition fee for giving you Fall of Roman Empire 101?

bolo121

Sure I'll be doing research later when im not so snowed under by work.
I wanted opinion of someone who has been studying this for a long time.
As to payment all i can offer is thanks and maybe buy you a drink. someday if i visit america

Kansas Bear

Try Peter Heather's "The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History of Rome and the Barbarians".

Amazon.com: The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History of Rome and the Barbarians: Books: Peter Heather

Ironduke

There is a misconception among the layman on what the Romans and "barbarians" were in late antiquity. There was a convergence in a wide variety of areas, perhaps most importantly, in military technology and feudalism. The "barbarians" were not primitive Stone Age people.

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bolo121

thanks for the info guys
I will try to get me some books next time any of my pals has to go to the US.

Ray

Poor construction material caused the fall of Rome!

The city council must have been riddled with graft!

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I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

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