xerxes

Dalem, I like to know your opinion on recent events regarding New Line and them firing PJ as Hobbit's potential director ... or do u like me think that PJ is over-rated?

and also your opinion of the Prequal movie for LOTR that was going to take place between Hobbit and the Fellowship of the Ring

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Actually, I like the FOTR much better TTT and ROTK. I really loved FOTR as movie. Must be that feeling of impending doom. ROTK, i didnt like the butchered battle of plennor Field. I hated that the Windex-Ghost-Army comes all the way from the White Mountains to fight the host of the Witch-king. The book was truley awesome regarding the battle of plennor Field. JRR Tolkein ultimately based the begining of the seige of Gondor as the siege of Constantinople by the Mehmed the Second, while he based the conclusion of seige of Gondor as the siege of Vienna by the Turks the grand vizier in 1683 (?), and the rout of the Turkish host. In fact the scene where the witchking is sitting upon his black steed with an iron mace is directing the battle is described by Edward Gibbsons's (the history of the decline and fall of roman empire), where Mehmed the Second with an iron mace upon a black horse is commanding the war effort with every gesture of his body movements. JRR Tolkein and Frank Herbert were truley one of the greatest. Their work is an all-time classic. When i read their books, I always myself rereading the line again to taste it again and again.

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this is for BSG fans, regarding questions on the finale

Tuned In - A Post-Gazette Journal

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If we contrast the rapid progress of this mischievous discovery of gunpowder with the slow and laborious advances of reason, science, and the arts of peace, a philosopher, according to his temper, will laugh or weep at the folly of mankind. - Edward Gibbon

Wraith601

That would be a valid point if Battlestar Galactica's fans were average Tv viewers, they're not. The show is too serialised for the casual viewer and the hardcore fan will wait.

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dalem

Well, I think that PJ did a truly wonderful job of bringing LOTR to film. I rate the director's cuts of FOTR, TT, and ROTK as 10, 9, 8, respectively. I simply don't see how they could have been much better and still be made as movies for big audiences.

Do I think they're perfect though? Far from it (although FOTR is close. Damned close.) Are there moments or scenes in all 3 that make me writhe or twitch or fume? Sure. (Denethor's clown show anyone? Elves at Helm's Deep anyone?) But they are the best done yet and probably the best that will be done in my lifetime, and they brought new visualizations that I really like and respect as a new facet of the mythos (Gandalf and the Balrog falling into the mountain lake) so I'm really really pleased with them.

As for him being overrated, I couldn't say. I liked the Frighteners, I liked the visuals of King Kong (didn't like the movie as a whole though), and I haven't seen anything else of his. So hard to say. He's a far better director than I am, anyway, right? Isn't that what matters?

I can see his not doing The Hobbit as both good and bad. On the one hand he and his people have such a perfect "lock" on the whole Middle Earth idea that I can't imagine a better crew to put it all together again for another ride. On the other hand, it must be remembered that The Hobbit is a fundamentally different kind of tale and probably should have a different feel - maybe a fresh crew or leader can achieve that better than he can.

I mean, "Tra-la-la lolly!" indeed.

As far as a 'tweener prequel, I have no knowledge of such an idea. Hard to see what it would be about. In between the Battle of the Five Armies and Bilbo's 111 birthday nothing happened except Balin trying to recolonize Moria.

I'm much more interested in the Second Age stuff - Angmar and Numenor and Eregion and Lond Daer and Umbar and Erech and all the rest.

I bet they could do a nice CGI job of Ar-Pharazon's great fleet tooting off to attack Aman.

-dale

dalem

Hope the advertising dollars feel the same way.

-dale

braindead

gunnut : ´´They are just too long and boring. I'm trained as an engineer. We get to the point as quickly as possible. We are here to solve problems rather than participate in human drama.´´
seems that ´A Yankee at the Court of King Arthur´´
would be exactly your thing

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If i only were so smart yesterday as my wife is today

xerxes

Dalem ...

I apologize for venting some of my frustration to you in regards to LOTR
movies ,,, but i thought someone should hear them

First and formost, I have deep respect for PJ, because he was indeed the man that introduced me to Tolkein by his adoptation of the FOTR. Therefore, I owe a debt of gratitiude to him. So my crisitism toward him, and him being an overated director, is mostly toward the myth that fans created that he and only him can pull it off, and not really to bash him for indeed he is a great director.

When, put in perspective next to Prequal Star Wars movies, a lot of people look upon it (LOTR) as a greater movies due to minimal CG. I disagree with that. A good CG is a CG that is seamless with physical location, and only Lucas's wizards have managed that for me, where the Weta's CG work is only great when it comes to Gollum. The LOTR movies though have great shooting locations (NZ) and great mini-not-so-mini-sets (minas tirith), have one of the worse ever CG seamless. (except for Gollum ofcourse). I dont have the same problem when watching Revenge of the Sith. Because CG is seamless and perfect.

Some of my major problems with Peter Jackson's LOTR Trilogy:

1 - Helms Deep:

I agree with PJ that having a cavalry force under Eomer coming out to crush the Uruks of the White Hand is more effective than having them on foot. PJ increased the impact of Roham cavarlyarm to the point of deathknell, whereas decreased the impact of the Hourns (wild trees) to non-existance. If you watch the theatrical version, it is great, because the Hourns are not shown, but when you watch the Extended edition, the presence of Hourns is shown in a extremely clumsy and badly done.

2 - Battle of Plennor Field

When Aragon et al. cleans off the coast using the ghost army, he brings with him the fief-armies of the dukes and counts, and that if Lord Imphal (sp?). Their non-existance in the movies is unacceptable. A huge mistake in the movie is that, Aragon et al. (three people) come to shores of Minas Tirith with all the galleys and ships. How is that possible to bring so many ships when only Aragon, Gimili and Legolas were there physically. I wanted to see the army of Gondor in the movie.

3 - the encounter of Withking and Gandalf

this was the high point of the books, when Gandalf the White seating on Shadowfax encounters and battle Witchking of Angmar seating upon his black steed. in the movie for some dumb stupid reason PJ felt using the cool-looking Fell Beast as witchking's steed and it happens in the balcony. He missed the whole point of that scene. If you watch the commentary of ROTK EE, he says "I dont know what the big deal with that scene in the book".

As you noticed most of my problems are battle related, and that should NOT be a trait of TOlkein fanatic, sense TOlkein was pacifist. But I like my battles well done. I am a Tolkein fan, but not as big as fan as you, sense i have not read the Similiarion and only read parts of Unfinished Tales regarding the Third Age. Though, I agree with that FOTR was the greatest of all. It was nearly perfect. The only thing that I hope on day PJ will add is the written scene where Frodo wearing the Ring goes on the top of the ruin of a tower at the end of the movie, and there he sees massive movement of armies in south, west, north and east. That woulld be a great tie-in to the two upcoming movies.

In regards to the Prequal movie, I am assuming that it is based around the Appendix of the LOTR and parts of Unifinished Tales, and also revolves around Balin, Lord of Moria, some stuff in around the Iron Hills, the flashback scenes between Boromir and Faramir in TTT. I know it is money grabber, but I wouldnt mind seeing that nor would I mind owning another EE DVD. Regading Hobbit, the most difficult thing IMHO is what to do with 14 Dwarves as part of the company, .. hehehe

I dont know much of the Second Age, though I would love an adaptation on the rise of the witchking of Angmar and his duel with last king of Gondor, the rise of Minas Morgul and the capture of Minas Ithil (?) by the witchking.

xerxes

I must say BSG has the best CG effect in Sci-fi. It is really really well done.
Revenge of the Sith has some good effects, but the overuse of kiddy-colors lowers its performance.

BTW Were you ever a fan Babylon 5.

Wraith601

You're not a hard core sci-fi fan if you're not IMHO.

xerxes

You're not a hard core sci-fi fan if you're not IMHO.

^^

I dont understand what do you mean??

dalem

Xerxes-

I always appreciate a discussion of LOTR, print or movies, don't sweat it.

I can understand, and to a degree empathize with your points regarding the changes and ommissions made for the movies. I certainly think that PJ missed or mischaracterized a couple of key themes from the books:

1) The basic nobility of Man.

PJs portrayal of Men is largely brutish and squalid and weak. In the Third Age there are still strains of Men who have blood lineages traceable to the Elder Days and the Valar. The vast majority are not of this strain, but many of the main characters are - Aragorn, Faramir, Denethor, Boromir, Theoden, Eomer - all should have been played with the nobility and gravitas turned up a notch.

2) Decisions.

Every single one of JRRT's major characters chooses which side to be on, but PJ has some few of them being tricked or cornered or otherwise avoiding the choice to fight Sauron or not.

The above two points combine to lead me to believe that PJ can't conceive of a truly noble and great man, either in fiction or real life. In the commentary he explains why he changes Faramir's rejection of the Ring into a seedy and whiney Daddy issue. He says that the idea of the Ring being so evil is unsustainable if someone can just leave it, but the real point is that Faramir CAN reject it, and does, and THAT'S how strong and wise he is. The act of rejection doesn't diminish the Ring, it elevates Faramir.

3) The ethereality of the Elves.

PJ brought the Elves to Helm's Deep in part because he wanted the Elves to be perceived as "doing something". Well, the "reality" is that the Elves were DONE doing things and that was part of the point. The abandonment of action in the physical world by the Elves makes the plight of Middle Earth that much more stark - if Men don't act there is no one left.

But after all that I still think he did a great job - considering how weird and huge LOTR is as a book - of translating it to the screen at all. And here I disagree with you greatly - I think the visuals were superb and I feel totally immersed in Middle Earth when I watch it - it just feels right.

-dale

ArmchairGeneral

I USED to read it once a year. I haven't read it since the first movie came out. I blame the movies for this, and that is one of the reasons I dislike them. I don't want to read the books again until I can do it without seeing Viggo Mortensen and whatshisnamewhoplayedFrodo in my head.

I'll be honest, though; I couldn't make it through Unfinished Tales. Dang thing was just a little too confusing and slow moving.

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-Theodore Dalrymple

Wraith601

I consider Babylon 5 one of the finest sci-fi TV shows EVER, and if you're not a fan of it, then in my view you wouldn't know real sci-fi if it bit you on the ass.

Wraith601

Except that the plots of virtually every show so far has centered somehow on keeping humanity alive. If not battling Cylons, they're looking for supplies, trying to find Earth, or trying to keep the Fleet together.

Some people actually enjoy character development and prefer shows with actual people and not lame caricatures a la Star Trek.

ArmchairGeneral

Funny, I liked the first one okay, after that I got successively more annoyed with the movies. As for long poems, like leib said, skip 'em. I do. If I ever read 'em again, I'll probably appreciate the songs more, as I'm more familiar with the mythology of the Silmarillion now.

ArmchairGeneral

Very interesting post, dalem. You've got a remarkable grasp of Middle Earth theology.