300 - Page 11

Low-tech · 04-03-2007, 05:11 AM

philip k dick mixed science fiction, mental illness,delusion,paranoia and the 60s drug culture into the most plot twisted, unpredictable books i ever read. he is one of the most original writers........period.

who else confuses paranoid delusion and science fiction in your novels. so you have characters who cant tell if things going on that occurs is just the result of mental illness......hullucination from constant drug use......or....is there actually a completely implausible psuedo-scientific explaination.

thats the kind of grey area i love

i watch vanilla sky which was based on some french movie made a long time ago that heavily references Ubik...........no matter how many times hacks plagurize and spin his ideas, including an MTV soundtrack with all the dialogue gutted and replaced with 90210 formulated melodrama, i still know the source material, its like hiding the mona lisa in a jackson pollack painting. everything else is **** and if it werent for his ideas, theres no movie, no substance.

its amazing how many movies ive watched where i see him being either ripped off or at least heavily referenced.

dalem · 04-03-2007, 13:15 PM

Vonnegut wrote in confuso-prose many a time, same as Dick. I liked some of the Vonnegut I read, but I never felt the need or desire to read more.

Really what we're describing here is personal taste, so there's no real direction to go in. I do enjoy the occasional non-traditional novel for a change of pace, but I have rarely enjoyed the truly odd or ethereal. Dune I couldn't stand, I tried a couple of other Herbert books and they just defeated me. I'm a big Heinlein fan, if that explains anything.

I liked the first Covenent series because it was different for epic fantasy to have the main character be an unrelenting a$$hole, but 3 books of that guy was enough - I hated the second trilogy. I haven't honestly read or enjoyed much fantasy at all over the last ten years or so, unless you're willing to grant that Brust's Jhereg stuff is fantasy. Which it kinda is.

-dale

Low-tech · 04-03-2007, 15:38 PM

vonnegut is good, i havent read enough of his stuff.

he fought in WW2 and wrote about his experience being captured and witnessing dresden. i think the book is slaughter house 5?, its been awhile, but i thinks what i read.

really, really interesting viewpoint from a soldier on the war, his style is very unusual but very, very good once i got the hang of it.

Bulgaroctonus · 04-04-2007, 01:05 AM

Members,

I know this thread has gotten far off the beaten path. Nonetheless, I finished the Historiae of Herotodus. Interestingly enough, the narrator character in 300 was based on a real Spartan soldier that survived the battle. His name was Aristodemus, and he was sent away from the battle on account of an eye illness. He was treated as a coward in Sparta so he threw himself into the fray at the battle of Plataea in 479 BC. The was another Spartan that survived the battle, having been sent away for reinforcements and returning to the Hot Gates too late. He was named Pantites, and he hung himself in disgrace after the battle.

The account of Ephialtes in Herodotus is similar to the movie. Herodotus states that Ephialtes was not a Spartan but a Malian (from the area surrounding Thermopylae). He approached Xerxes hoping for a reward. Ephialtes met his end at the sword of a Greek, Athenades, some time after the battle. His name now means 'nightmare' in Greek and Italian (as well as Latin I suppose).

Herodotus remarks that Xerxes stood up from his seat three times during the battle, enraged at the failure of his troops to gain the pass.

The last day of the battle in Herodotus' account:

Quote:

7.223 Xerxes meanwhile, having made libations at sunrise, stayed for some time, until about the hour when the market fills, and then made an advance upon [the Spartans]; for thus it had been enjoined by Epialtes, seeing that the descent of the mountain is shorter and the space to be passed over much less than the going round and the ascent. The Barbarians accordingly with Xerxes were advancing to the attack; and the Hellenes with Leonidas, feeling that they were going forth to death, now advanced out much further than at first into the broader part of the defile; for when the fence of the wall was being guarded, they on the former days fought retiring before the enemy into the narrow part of the pass; but now they engaged with them outside the narrows, and very many of the Barbarians fell: for behind them the leaders of the divisions with scourges in their hands were striking each man, ever urging them on to the front. Many of them then were driven into the sea and perished, and many more still were trodden down while yet alive by one another, and there was no reckoning of the number that perished: for knowing the death which was about to come upon them by reason of those who were going round the mountain, the Lacedemonians displayed all the strength which they had, to its greatest extent, disregarding danger and acting as if possessed by a spirit of recklessness.

7.224 Now by this time the spears of the greater number of them were broken, so it chanced, in this combat, and they were slaying the Persians with their swords; and in this fighting fell Leonidas, having proven himself a very good man, and others also of the Spartans with him, men of note, of whose names I was informed as of men who had proven themselves worthy, and indeed I was told also the names of all the three hundred. Moreover of the Persians there fell here, besides many others of note, especially two sons Dareios, Abrocomes and Hyperanthes, born to Dareios of Phratagune the daughter of Artanes: now Artanes was the brother of king Dareios and the son of Hystaspes, the son of Arsames; and he in giving his daughter in marriage to Dareios gave also with her all his substance, because she was his only child.

7.225 Two brothers of Xerxes, I say, fell here fighting; and meanwhile over the body of Leonidas there arose a great struggle between the Persians and the Lacedemonians, until the Hellenes by valour dragged this away from the enemy and turned their opponents to flight four times. This conflict continued until those who had gone with the Epialtes came up; and when the Hellenes learnt that these had come, from that moment the nature of the combat was changed; for they retired backwards to the narrow part of the way, and having passed by the wall they went and placed themselves upon the hillock, all in a body together except only the Thebans: now this hillock is in the entrance, where now the stone lion is placed for Leonidas. On this spot while defending themselves with daggers, that is those who still had them left, and also with hands and with teeth, they were overwhelmed by the missiles of the Barbarians, some of these having followed directly after them and destroyed the wall, while others had come round and stood about them on all sides.

7.226 Such were the proofs of valour given by the Lacedemonians and Thespians; yet the Spartan Dienekes is said to have proved himself the best man of all, the same who, as they report, uttered this saying before they engaged battle with the Medes: - being informed by one of the men of Trachis that when the Barbarians discharged their arrows they obscured the light of the sun by the multitude of the arrows, so great was the number of their host. He was not dismayed by this, but making small account of the number of the Medes, he said that their guest from Trachis brought them very good news, for if the Medes obscured the light of the sun, the battle against them would be in the shade and not in the sun.

Regards,

Bulgaroctonus

Amled · 04-04-2007, 08:53 AM

Quote:

…Such were the proofs of valour given by the Lacedemonians and Thespians; yet the Spartan Dienekes is said to have proved himself the best man of all, the same who, as they report, uttered this saying before they engaged battle with the Medes: - being informed by one of the men of Trachis that when the Barbarians discharged their arrows they obscured the light of the sun by the multitude of the arrows, so great was the number of their host. He was not dismayed by this, but making small account of the number of the Medes, he said that their guest from Trachis brought them very good news, for if the Medes obscured the light of the sun, the battle against them would be in the shade and not in the sun.

Practical as well as insanely brave!
I can see him enjoying in a chorus with the ending song from Monty Python’s film: The Life Of Brian “…always look on the bright side of things.”

Alamgir · 04-04-2007, 12:51 PM

300 was the worst portrayal of Iranians i have ever seen. Persians being depicated as animals/monsters or being played by Black people? Fair enough its only a movie but WTF....

leib10 · 04-04-2007, 13:06 PM

The main problem I have with Tolkien's writing is his gross overuse of deus ex machina. Pretty much every battle involves one army coming in to save another army at the last minute, and after a while the story got predictable.

I have a problem with deus ex machina because it generally shows lazy and unimaginative writing on the author's part. Rather than thinking of some clever way to solve a problem, it is solved by some outside factor that requires little imagination to think of.

xerxes · 04-04-2007, 13:09 PM

What is "deus ex machina", if I may ask????

dalem · 04-04-2007, 13:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leib10

The main problem I have with Tolkien's writing is his gross overuse of deus ex machina. Pretty much every battle involves one army coming in to save another army at the last minute, and after a while the story got predictable.

I have a problem with deus ex machina because it generally shows lazy and unimaginative writing on the author's part. Rather than thinking of some clever way to solve a problem, it is solved by some outside factor that requires little imagination to think of.

There are only two real battles described in any detail in LOTR - Helm's Deep and the Pellannor Fields. At Helm's Deep the arrival of Gandalf with reinforcements is less a d.e.m. than it is good timing. Likewise at Gondor, Aragorn means to bring the Corsairs and other reinforcements from Southern Gondor to defend the City - again it is literary license that he arrives "just in time".

The only real d.e.m. is the arrival of the Eagles (as I have mentioned they are truly intended to be) at the Last Battle in front of the Morannon.

-dale

**Officer of Engineers** · 04-04-2007, 13:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alamgir

300 was the worst portrayal of Iranians i have ever seen. Persians being depicated as animals/monsters or being played by Black people? Fair enough its only a movie but WTF....

Personally, I didn't like the movie but Xerxes was more homo-erotic than monster and the rank and file of the regforce Persians were not black.

dalem · 04-04-2007, 14:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xerxes

What is "deus ex machina", if I may ask????

Latin for "act of God".

-dale

leib10 · 04-04-2007, 14:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xerxes

What is "deus ex machina", if I may ask????

A literary device which in Greek means "God from machine". It means, usually, when something or somebody comes in and saves the protagonist or the good guys at the last minute from certain doom.

xerxes · 04-04-2007, 21:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

There are only two real battles described in any detail in LOTR - Helm's Deep and the Pellannor Fields. At Helm's Deep the arrival of Gandalf with reinforcements is less a d.e.m. than it is good timing. Likewise at Gondor, Aragorn means to bring the Corsairs and other reinforcements from Southern Gondor to defend the City - again it is literary license that he arrives "just in time".

The only real d.e.m. is the arrival of the Eagles (as I have mentioned they are truly intended to be) at the Last Battle in front of the Morannon.

-dale

Is this correct dalem

dalem · 04-04-2007, 22:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xerxes

Is this correct dalem

Sure it's correct - they were pirates. The Corsairs of Umbar were the coastal pirates that harried Gondor's southern coasts. With the aid of the Dead, Aragorn drove off the pirates, commandeered their ships and used them to transport reinforcements up the Anduin River to Gondor.

From Webster online:

Quote:

corsair
One entry found for corsair.

Main Entry: cor·sair
Pronunciation: 'kor-"ser; kor-'
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French & Old Italian; Middle French corsaire pirate, from Old Occitan corsari, from Old Italian corsaro, from Medieval Latin cursarius, from Latin cursus course -- more at COURSE
: PIRATE; especially : a privateer of the Barbary Coast

This is another kind of thing that JRRT did that drives purists crazy and fans weeping into the aisles of bookstores to buy copies of "Unfinished Lost Lay Tales of Pre-Beforetime that Tolkien May Have Not Unincluded in His Published Works" - casual references to cool things that never get enough exposition in his works.

-dale

xerxes · 04-04-2007, 22:25 PM

No, I meant the way you formed your phrase

" Aragorn means to bring the Corsairs and other reinforcements from Southern Gondor to defend the City"

Because, Aragorn did not bring the Corsairs of Umbar to defend the City, but rather, he drove them off using the Isildure ghost army, in order to free the tied up Gondor fief armies. That was I meant.

In regards to "Corsairs of Umbar", I always felt they were meant to represent the Turkish Corsairs fleet under Barbaroussa during Suleiman era

04-04-2007, 12:51 PM	#156 (permalink)
Alamgir Regular Join Date: 08-14-05 Posts: 119 Country:	300 was the worst portrayal of Iranians i have ever seen. Persians being depicated as animals/monsters or being played by Black people? Fair enough its only a movie but WTF.... __________________

04-04-2007, 13:06 PM	#157 (permalink)
leib10 HKHolic *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 02-17-05 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,240 Country:	The main problem I have with Tolkien's writing is his gross overuse of deus ex machina. Pretty much every battle involves one army coming in to save another army at the last minute, and after a while the story got predictable. I have a problem with deus ex machina because it generally shows lazy and unimaginative writing on the author's part. Rather than thinking of some clever way to solve a problem, it is solved by some outside factor that requires little imagination to think of. __________________ "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man Last edited by leib10 : 04-04-2007 at 13:08 PM.

04-04-2007, 13:09 PM	#158 (permalink)
xerxes Padishah Shahanshah *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 01-23-07 Location: Canada Posts: 950 Country:	What is "deus ex machina", if I may ask???? __________________ If we contrast the rapid progress of this mischievous discovery of gunpowder with the slow and laborious advances of reason, science, and the arts of peace, a philosopher, according to his temper, will laugh or weep at the folly of mankind. - Edward Gibbon

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04-03-2007, 05:11 AM	#151 (permalink)
Low-tech Patron Join Date: 08-04-06 Location: providence, RI Posts: 259	philip k dick mixed science fiction, mental illness,delusion,paranoia and the 60s drug culture into the most plot twisted, unpredictable books i ever read. he is one of the most original writers........period. who else confuses paranoid delusion and science fiction in your novels. so you have characters who cant tell if things going on that occurs is just the result of mental illness......hullucination from constant drug use......or....is there actually a completely implausible psuedo-scientific explaination. thats the kind of grey area i love i watch vanilla sky which was based on some french movie made a long time ago that heavily references Ubik...........no matter how many times hacks plagurize and spin his ideas, including an MTV soundtrack with all the dialogue gutted and replaced with 90210 formulated melodrama, i still know the source material, its like hiding the mona lisa in a jackson pollack painting. everything else is **** and if it werent for his ideas, theres no movie, no substance. its amazing how many movies ive watched where i see him being either ripped off or at least heavily referenced.

04-03-2007, 13:15 PM	#152 (permalink)
dalem Lord High Hullabalooster *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-23-04 Location: Columbia Heights, MN Posts: 8,325 Country:	Vonnegut wrote in confuso-prose many a time, same as Dick. I liked some of the Vonnegut I read, but I never felt the need or desire to read more. Really what we're describing here is personal taste, so there's no real direction to go in. I do enjoy the occasional non-traditional novel for a change of pace, but I have rarely enjoyed the truly odd or ethereal. Dune I couldn't stand, I tried a couple of other Herbert books and they just defeated me. I'm a big Heinlein fan, if that explains anything. I liked the first Covenent series because it was different for epic fantasy to have the main character be an unrelenting a$$hole, but 3 books of that guy was enough - I hated the second trilogy. I haven't honestly read or enjoyed much fantasy at all over the last ten years or so, unless you're willing to grant that Brust's Jhereg stuff is fantasy. Which it kinda is. -dale

04-03-2007, 15:38 PM	#153 (permalink)
Low-tech Patron Join Date: 08-04-06 Location: providence, RI Posts: 259	vonnegut is good, i havent read enough of his stuff. he fought in WW2 and wrote about his experience being captured and witnessing dresden. i think the book is slaughter house 5?, its been awhile, but i thinks what i read. really, really interesting viewpoint from a soldier on the war, his style is very unusual but very, very good once i got the hang of it.

04-04-2007, 22:25 PM	#165 (permalink)
xerxes Padishah Shahanshah *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 01-23-07 Location: Canada Posts: 950 Country:	No, I meant the way you formed your phrase " Aragorn means to bring the Corsairs and other reinforcements from Southern Gondor to defend the City" Because, Aragorn did not bring the Corsairs of Umbar to defend the City, but rather, he drove them off using the Isildure ghost army, in order to free the tied up Gondor fief armies. That was I meant. In regards to "Corsairs of Umbar", I always felt they were meant to represent the Turkish Corsairs fleet under Barbaroussa during Suleiman era

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