Kansas Bear

Using the testimony of someone who arrived AFTER the fact.

So you have the accused and the accuser. Same boat.

xerxes

Comeon guys, why fighting ....

The biggest and the baddest Turkish Empire was definitly the Safavid Empire

__________________
If we contrast the rapid progress of this mischievous discovery of gunpowder with the slow and laborious advances of reason, science, and the arts of peace, a philosopher, according to his temper, will laugh or weep at the folly of mankind. - Edward Gibbon

Big K

the goal is to show you the attitude of Armenians against Turks


in that case theres no neutrals, even you are not neutral.

__________________
When i say, there will be no effect but i am not willing to remain silent.
-Fuzuli

Big K

Safevids were shii Turks and Persians right?

deadkenny

Well, since it's based on an 'after the fact' eyewitness account, the 'attitude' of the Armenians isn't really very surprizing, is it? Amazing how being exterminated as a race will affect your 'attitude' towards your would be exterminators, isn't it?



The only potential 'neutrals' would be those who know nothing about it. Everyone else either participates in the cover up or recognizes the historical truth of the genocide.

Big K

Kenny, and KB,

please read very carefully these sites:

Armenian Genocide

Introduction to Armenian Issue - FORSNET

please try to see whole the picture,

by the way if you check the Turkish thesis you can see that the neutrality of these witnesses is highly questionable.

a "Great Armenia" inure to the benefit of almost all western states at these days. so supporting Armenians is very normal. but remember even British cant find any proves to judge the Turks which held in MALTA as prisoniers.

check British archives, theres a letter about "no evidence about a massacre against these Turks"

Big K

ARMENIANS NOT SUBJECTED TO RELOCATION

The relocation decision has not been applied to all Armenians. At the beginning, a part of the Armenians living in the regions (In Urfa, Germis and Birecik, Erzurum, Aydin, Trabzon, Edirne, Canik, Cannakkale, Adapazari, Halep, Bolu, Kastamonu, Tekirdag, Konya and Karahisar-i sahib) have been kept out of the scope of migration. (1) But, thereafter, when it has been certain that these people were also involved in various severity events, majority of them been subjected to migration. (2) The ill and the blind were not subjected to relocation and the Catholic and the Protestant ones, the soldiers and their families, the officers, merchants, some workers and masters were not subject to migration, either. Likewise, in the telegraphs sent to the provinces, it is requested not to move the ill, the blind, the disabled and the old and to settle them in the city centers. (3)

With the telegraphs sent to the related provinces on August 2, 1915 and August 15th 1915, it has been ordered not to subject the Armenians from the Catholic and Protestant sects to migration and to settle them in the cities they were currently in and to notify the number of their population. (5) The ones that have been subjected to migration by mistake have been settled in the cities they were currently in. (6). But among the ones that were kept out of the scope of migration, the ones that were observed to have harmful actions have been sent to new settlement regions regardless of their being Catholic or Protestant. (7)

In the coded telegraph sent to the provinces on August 15 1915, the Armenians providing service as officers and health personnel in the Ottoman army and their families have not been subjected to migration and left at their locations. (8) Besides this, the Armenians working in the branches of Ottoman Bank, in the Turkish Tobacco Monopoly and in some consulates have not been subjected to relocation, either, as long as they remained loyal to the government and their good behavior continued.

Furthermore, orphans and widowed women have not been subjected to migration and have been taken under protection in the villages and orphanages. (10) The children, who became orphans during the transportation have been sent to Sivas and settled in the orphanages there. (11) A general order was issued on April 30, 1916 about the Armenian families needing protection. With this order, the families with no guardians, whose male members either were transported or were in military service, were settled in the villages and towns, where there were no Armenians and their catering were met from the Immigrants� Allowance. The children up to 12 were given to Muslim families at locations, where the orphanages were not sufficient and their education and development have been provided. 30 kurush was paid to the poor Muslim families to meet the expenses of the children from the Immigrants� Allowance. Young and widowed women were permitted to marry Muslim men with their own will. (12)

REFERENCE:

Halacoglu, Prof. Dr. Yusuf, Facts Relating to the Armenian Displacement (1915), TTK Publication, Ankara, 2001

FOOTNOTES

1) Coding Office, no 54-A/155; no 56/ 114; no 56/ 225; no 56/ 226; no 57/89; no 57/177; no 59/ 218

2) Coding Office, no 54-A/271; no 54-A / 272 (July 22nd 1331/ August 4th 1915)

3) Coding Office, no 56/27; no 67/186

4) Coding Office, no. 54-A/ 251; no 55/20

5) Coding Office, no. 56/112 (September 6th 1331/ September 19th 1915, to Konya province)

6) About this issue, orders have been sent via telegraph to Sivas (Coding Office 56/176), Mamuretülaziz and Diyarbekir provinces (Coding Office no 56/172) on September 14th 1331 / September 26th 1915; to Konya (Coding Office, no 58/2) and Ankara (Coding Office, no 58/159) provinces on 1 Tesrinisani 1331 / November 14th 1915.

7) A telegraph in this way has been sent to Adana province on August 1331 / September 2nd 1915 (Coding Office, no. 55-A/23).

8) Coding Office, no. 55/18

9) Coding Office, no 56/36 (September 3rd 1331 / September 16th 1915); no 56/243 (September 17th 1331 / September 30th 1915); no 56/360 (September 28th 1331 / October 11th 1915).

10) Coding Office, no 54/411; no 54/450; no 54-A / 325

11) Coding Office, no 61/18-20

12) This order has been sent to Adana, Erzurum, Edirne, Halep, Hüdavendigar, Sivas, Diyarbekir, Mamuretülaziz, Konya, Kastamonu, Trabzon provinces and Izmit, Canik, Eskisehir, Karahisar-i sahib, Maras, Urfa, Kaysri, Nigde possessorships (Coding Office, no 63/147) and to Ankara province on May 17th 1332 / May 30th 1916 (Coding Office no 64/162).

deadkenny

From this website:

also bearing in mind the words of Andrew Jackson, regarding the unscrupulous activist Armenians and their "genocide scholar" allies: "You are a den of vipers and thieves and I intend to rout you out, and by the eternal God, I will rout you out."

So Andrew Jackson denounced 'activist Armenians and their "genocide scholar" allies' regarding their claims of a genocide that occurred 70 years after Jackson died!?! Hmmm. NEXT!

Big K

WOAH!!!

hes giving an exemple!!!!! how can you say that?? i think "regarding" have a meaning of "to regard sth as suitable for sb"

hes thinking that this "You are a den of vipers and thieves and I intend to rout you out, and by the eternal God, I will rout you out." phrase is suitable for Armenian terrorists and their allies...



"If there’s something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action."

Thomas Jefferson, U.S. Declaration of Independence, as paraphrased* by Nicolas Cage's character in the film, NATIONAL TREASURE. In other words, it is the duty of honorable and truthful parties (particularly legitimate historians and journalists) to right the racist harm caused by deceptive Armenian propaganda (also bearing in mind the words of Andrew Jackson, regarding the unscrupulous activist Armenians and their "genocide scholar" allies: "You are a den of vipers and thieves and I intend to rout you out, and by the eternal God, I will rout you out.").

(*Jefferson's words: "“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.” Thanks to Umit.)


this is the final warning, please stop to make demagogic statements and stop to seeing Turkish Thesis.

maybe you are not ready to hear an alternative to your thoughts, are you?

Big K

The following commenting Foreword is from ATA-USA's April/July 1983 issue:

This article appeared in the June 13, 1923 issue of the American magazine, The Nation. The date is important, on several counts. It preceded by four months the proclamation of the Turkish Republic of Mustafa Kemal. It followed by a year the three-staged Greco-Turkish War of 1920-22, of which Bernard Lewis has written: “The Greeks made it clear from the first that they had come, not for a temporary occupation, but a permanent annexation—to incorporate western Anatolia in a greater Greece on both sides of the Aegean.” It appeared as the diplomatic wrangling of the Lausanne peace conference was drawing to a close, and the media of the time had been conducting a relentless campaign to discredit both the declining Ottomans and the rising Nationalists of Turkey, thereby justifying the expansionist aims of the Western Imperialists.

It is within this framework that the authors of “The Turkish Myth” tried, through the respectability of their distinguished journal, to arouse the conscience of the Western world. The article is ilIuminating; it sets the stage by drawing an accurate picture of what was going on at that time and valiantly dares to debunk the whole bodyof falsehoods about Turkey and the Levant that were prevalent when the article was written. It provides insights into the thinking of that era. But despite their efforts, the myth continues, even after 60 years. (Now over eighty.) All of the mythology has given rise to an even more widely spread myth: the myth of an
Armenian genocide.



The few Westerners of importance who have tried to give faithful pictures of life in the Near East have been outnumbered to the extent of being smothered.

The Turkish Myth

by Arthur Moss and Florence Gilliam



The Nation article



Everybody is familiar with the wave of misinformation, misinterpretation, and actual falsification which swept the Allied countries during the recent World War. Now the pendulum has begun to swing and soon we may expect a settling back to normal, with a calm consideration of enemy countries as a mixture of good and bad elements like the rest of the world. But the consistent misinformation of the Western world with regard to Turkey has been of such long standing as to take its place among the inherent traditions and almost ineradicable beliefs of whole nations.

The few Westerners of importance who have tried to give faithful pictures of life in the Near East have been outnumbered to the extent of being smothered. Major General Harbord, sent officially to investigate conditions; H. G. Dwight, a former United States consular official and author of “Constantinople” and “Stamboul Nights”; Pierre Loti, the romantic lover of Turkish civilization; Anatole France, whose keen mind usually penetrates popular illusions; and H. G. Wells, in “The Outline of History,” are members of the small group of Westerners who have defended Moslem civilization. When Lothrop Stoddard says: “Fourteen hundred years ago Islam rose and flooded the civilized world,” he obviously regards the Mohammedan advance as a wave of barbarism sweeping to destruction the elements of a lofty Western civilization. A pretty theory upon which H. G. Wells has made the following comment: “If the reader entertains any delusions about a fine civilization, either Persian, Roman, Hellenic, or Egyptian, being submerged by this flood (the advance of Islam), the sooner he dismisses such ideas the better. Islam prevailed because it was the best social and political order the times could offer.”

Anatole France goes him one better by declaring that “the most tragic day in history is that of the battle of Poitiers when in 732 the science, the art, and the civilization of Arabia fell back before the barbarism of the Frank.”



Those massacres which occur among the Armenians are most often the work of the Kurds


The age-old charge against the Turks is of course the Armenian massacres. A journalist not long since tabulated the reports of these massacres in recent years and showed that they totaled thirty-five million slain. As the whole Armenian population is known never to have exceeded three million, there is obviously a case of falsification somewhere. The Bryce reports have been proved to be without tangible evidence and to have been based entirely on hearsay. It has been remarked that investigation in the villages where Turks were in the minority would have revealed just as many instances of Greeks and Bulgars massacring Turks. Indeed it is notable that the Greeks and Bulgars accuse each other of such atrocities much more than they accuse the Turks. The situation is of course the result of an age-long conflict between different peoples who have become almost inextricably mixed politically. Those massacres which occur among the Armenians are most often the work of the Kurds, who are roving bands about as lawless as the mobs in parts of the American South, and about as out-of-hand politically as the banditti who infest parts of Italy and Spain.

A strange turn of phraseology: the League of Nations admitting Greek atrocities!

Finally, there could be no more complete refutation of the long-perpetuated charges against Turkey than the behavior of the Turkish army during the recent offensive in Smyrna. All the events of this advance have been reported by British and American papers whose policy has been consistently anti-Turkish. When the victorious army entered the region, the Christian population, remembering the precedent of 1919 when the Greeks slaughtered 4,000 Moslems, began sending out panic-stricken appeals for protection, anticipating retaliation on the part of the Turks. And the Council of the League of Nations at Geneva sent to Angora a mild request that no reprisals be made for the Greek atrocities. A strange turn of phraseology: the League of Nations admitting Greek atrocities! Gradually it dawned upon the Christians in Smyrna and upon the Christian nations in Europe that no reprisals were to be made. But the retreating Greeks in complete demoralization behaved so badly that even the efficient British censorship could not stop the leaking of news. The pillaging and burning by the defeated Greek army grew to such proportions that it was difficult for lzmet Pasha to restrain his troops from retaliation. But restrain them he did, and his men behaved with such dignity and orderliness as to profoundly impress Western observers. (How different from the actions of our own marines in Haiti!) The first Turk troops to enter Smyrna were military police who prevented looting and did their best to still the panic among the hysterical Greek civilians. The correspondents of the Chicago Tribune, the London Daily Mail, and Reuter’s stated emphatically that the unfortunate burning of the city was not in any way traceable to the Turks. In spite of these reports by correspondents who were on the spot and who have no reason to favor the Turkish cause, we still hear that the Turks burned Smyrna.

During the retreat, Reuter’s correspondent was warned by Greek officers to leave Ouchak as that town was to be burned. I quote his dispatch from Smyrna: “The demoralization of the Greek troops was complete and the behavior of most of the Greek officers disgusting. On the retreat to Smyrna many Greek officers personally led the looting and pillaging.”

The stories of Turk atrocities circulated among American churches are a mess of lies. I believe that the Greeks and not the Turks are barbarians.


But it remains for an American official, a man sent by a great relief organization to help succor the downtrodden Greeks and Armenians, to knock the last props from under the stupid edifice of lies and anti-Turk propaganda. Colonel Haskell of the American Red Cross has just returned from a tour of investigation in the Near East. Speaking officially he said: “America should feed the half million Turks whose hinterland was willfully demolished by the retreating Greeks, instead of aiding the Greeks and Armenians who are sitting around waiting for America to give them their next meal. The stories of Turk atrocities circulated among American churches are a mess of lies. I believe that the Greeks and not the Turks are barbarians.”

Armenian relief


Armenians getting hand-outs from relief organization;
Library of Congress Call No. LC-B2- 4544-5[P&P]; thanks to Gokalp.

It has been pointed out that the past wars of Islam have been waged with the hope of plunder. How many nations have entered war without some such hope? And in Angora the desire was not for conquest but simply to regain Constantinople, a city that has been Turkish for 500 years and has at present a population which is predominantly Turkish. If wars of conquest are to be deprecated, what could have been a plainer scheme of aggrandizement than the last Greek expedition, materially fortified by the imperialistic policy of Lloyd George? The Greeks were deluded by a dream of regained Alexandrian Empire. It is as though Italy should suddenly demand the restitution of all the Roman provinces on the strength of her glorious past. Charles Saglio in l’Oeuvre, Paris, commenting upon the statement of the British Government that the Turkish victory complicated matters in the Near East, said Mustapha Kemal had really rendered a great service to the Allies in driving the Greeks out of Smyrna, which was the most Turkish of all Turkish territory, and had thus largely cleared up the situation instead of confusing it.

In Turkey, all three main religions— Mohammedanism, Judaism, and Christianity—are on an equal footing; the numerically dominant one is completely divorced from the state.


In Turkey, all three main religions— Mohammedanism, Judaism, and Christianity—are on an equal footing; the numerically dominant one is completely divorced from the state. This will not mean any falling off in the followers of Mohammed, but merely that other religions are to have equal rights. A Catholic cannot go as far politically in secular America as a Christian can go in so-called theocratic Turkey. Turkey is no more Islam than Italy is Catholicism. There are rumors of a religious war. If it ever comes, it will not come from Turkey as a center but from the outside pressure of Arab tribes. Even under less enlightened rulers than the present government the Turks have been extraordinarily tolerant to other religions. During the 500 years of Turkish occupation of Jerusalem no religious shrine belonging to another people was molested. All sacred spots were open to visitors of the different faiths. And it may be noted in this connection that the inauguration of Allied control precipitated an immediate squabble of nations and sects concerning the guardianship of the holy places. It is not likely, either, that any Western nation would have allowed to Mohammedan missionaries extraterritorial rights such as have been enjoyed by the American College in Constantinople.

Turkey’s greatest crime in modern times seems to have been her entrance into the war on the losing side. Most of our war records tell of the villainy of Enver Bey, but how many refer to Mahmoud Shevket Pasha, the Minister of War whom the Germanophiles of Turkey assassinated because he was doing his best to keep Turkey out of the conflict?

But whatever may be the merits of this case, the Treaty of Sévres, August, 1920, was the last and greatest effort of the Christian Powers to divide Turkey as they have divided Austria, leaving the latter state to the mercies of international charity. In Turkey there was not the excuse of a heterogeneous population as in Austro-Hungary, the population of Turkey being 70 per cent Ottoman Turk and 85 per cent Moslem. The Treaty of Sévres was an Anglo-French grab-scheme; its successor which is to be evolved from the proposals and counter-proposals initiated at Lausanne is likely to be little more.

It is almost impossible to grasp the revolutionary achievements of Mustapha Kemal Pasha, head of the Angora Government. Here is a man of forty, who in the course of a few years has accomplished what would have been considered a task for 500 years, leaping from entirely unrepresentative governmental methods to really democratic ones. Many of the petty rulers of Turkey before the war were lazy rather than vicious. Turkey was a despairing country, sure of being attacked by European Powers whatever its policy.

Suffrage is absolutely universal with no discrimination for race, color, creed, or sex



No one wanted to be really responsible for anything. Kemal has made sweeping changes in this respect. Suffrage is absolutely universal with no discrimination for race, color, creed, or sex. The harem system has long been outworn and economically impractical, and there is now an active Turkish Women’s Party with at least as much influence as the National Woman’s Party in America. (Kemal has recently been married to Latifeh Hanoum, one of the leaders of this party.)

The present Government is based on the village system. Each village elects representatives to a body which in turn elects district representatives. These form a council which votes for president. Mustapha Kemal is responsible to this council and trusts himself to a general election at least once a year; he has held office ever since the formation of the Angora Government. It is new for Turkey to have a ruler animated by statesmanlike intelligence and backed by popular support. Angora has recognized the independence of Armenia, Azerbaijan, the Hejaz, and Irak. These countries are more grateful to Angora for such recognition than they are to the Allied congress which made them independent states. Because of Mustapha Kemal’s genius and honesty of purpose, and the ability and liberalism of the men associated with him in the new Turkish Government, the Moslem world presents an almost united front under the leadership of Turkey.

The Western world has just begun to realize the great difference between Old Turks and Young Turks. Mustapha Kemal’s Government is endeavoring to prove by its every political move that the appropriate term of the hour is neither of these, but New Turks.

deadkenny

We seem to get a lot of different 'stories' from the deniers of the extermination of the Armenians. It was a 'relocation'. There was no 'relocation'. The Armenians deserved to be exterminated because they started killing Turks first. It was the Kurds that exterminated the Armenians, not the Turks at all. It all just sounds like a guilty man trying to deny his guilt, but unable to settle on a single 'alternative truth' about what happened.

glyn

__________________
Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

Big K

all of these are a true and parts of a whole...if you read links you can easily unerstand...

Introduction to Armenian Issue - FORSNET

Armenian Genocide



there will be no winner in this case, i know that i am unable to "convert" your ideas. my goal is to light a tiny candle about us...

i am very incomfortable about this too. but anybody dont read my links...i need to copy and paste some exemples......and there are too much writings about this issue...

deadkenny

Well BigK, you made a rather lengthy post above. In it there is only one paragraph regarding the extermination of the Armenians, and this is what it says:

Those massacres which occur among the Armenians are most often the work of the Kurds


The age-old charge against the Turks is of course the Armenian massacres. A journalist not long since tabulated the reports of these massacres in recent years and showed that they totaled thirty-five million slain. As the whole Armenian population is known never to have exceeded three million, there is obviously a case of falsification somewhere. The Bryce reports have been proved to be without tangible evidence and to have been based entirely on hearsay. It has been remarked that investigation in the villages where Turks were in the minority would have revealed just as many instances of Greeks and Bulgars massacring Turks. Indeed it is notable that the Greeks and Bulgars accuse each other of such atrocities much more than they accuse the Turks. The situation is of course the result of an age-long conflict between different peoples who have become almost inextricably mixed politically. Those massacres which occur among the Armenians are most often the work of the Kurds, who are roving bands about as lawless as the mobs in parts of the American South, and about as out-of-hand politically as the banditti who infest parts of Italy and Spain.

Now, I'll delete the parts that do not refer to the extermination of Armenians, but instead talk about how 'uncivilized' the Greeks, Bulgars and Kurds are.


Those massacres which occur among the Armenians are most often the work of the Kurds


The age-old charge against the Turks is of course the Armenian massacres. A journalist not long since tabulated the reports of these massacres in recent years and showed that they totaled thirty-five million slain. As the whole Armenian population is known never to have exceeded three million, there is obviously a case of falsification somewhere. The Bryce reports have been proved to be without tangible evidence and to have been based entirely on hearsay. Those massacres which occur among the Armenians are most often the work of the Kurds.

So, what we are left with is the following:

1. A journalist (who?) allegedly added up various reports (what methodology?) and came up with a total of 35,000,000 Armenians supposedly exterminated, which is 10 times larger than the total population at the time.

2. The Bryce reports have been 'proven' (where? by who?) to be lacking evidence and based on hearsay.

3. It was the Kurds who exterminated the Armenians, not the Turks.

So, out of a massive post we have 3 simple assertions that are just stated and without any proof or supporting evidence themselves. In particular, no one that actually recognizes the historical truth of the extermination of the Armenians actually claims that the total killed is 35 million or anywhere near that figure. So that point is just a total red herring designed to attempt to discredit legitimate claims. Regarding the Kurds, those supporting the historical truth of the extermination of the Armenians confirm that the Kurds did assist the Turks in the mass killings. However, the participation of Kurds does not exonerate the Turks. Finally we have a totally unsubstantiated claim regarding the Bryce report. Do you actually believe that this 'garbage', or requiring anyone to sift through such a volume of text in order to extract 3 unsupported claims, is likely to convince anyone?

Big K

Kenny,

i am not just to try to blame others or something else...it was just an exemple to make you look from a bigger perspective to the events of these time.

the situations in which Turks are blamed for this issue..

all the info you need is in these links.

you must read from the beginning to the end...

Introduction to Armenian Issue - FORSNET

Armenian Genocide