Thread: OE: Greek Pankration the Source of Eastern Martial Arts?

The very fact that Alexander faced an Indian Army already states that India had some form of martial system already in place.

Don't forget that the Indian army faced by the greeks was a professionally trained army. The little I read about Alexander's campaigns in India is convincing me that Alexander did not have much success as propoganda claims to be. If Alexander was successful, we would hear more about it.

There's a saying.

"Victory is thunderous, defeat is silent." Not the exact wording. No one likes to write about their own defeats. They like to write their own exploits. The reason why Indian books about Alexander's campaigns are very few and offers very little details is because almost of all India's history writings were nearly wiped out in the countless invasions and raids by Mughals, Turks, and Afghans. We had a great library, one of the greatest in the history of mankind in Bihar, modern state of India. It rivaled or surpassed the great library of Alexandria but was destroyed in an invasion by the Mughals.

And also, a lot of books were strongly discounted by British historians who had their own agenda. They purposedfully "recycled" or "misplaced" most surviving Indian historian accounts of Alexander and his campaigns.

I wish I could have the proof that you seek but it is not translated.

Originally Posted by Praxus

The greeks practiced a form of martial arts called "pankration". As you are probably well aware this form of martial arts existed for nearly 7 centuries before what we currently know as eastern martial arts, came along. On many of the vase paintings depicting this in practice they use many things we associate with modern eastern martial arts. We all know that Alexander's army reached as far as India. Do you think the idea that Alexanders army brought Pankration to India is possible (and from there spread to the far east)?

Kalaripayattu was the ancient Indian martial art of Kerela and some parts of Karnataka. These regions had no influsence from Alexander of the Greeks who came late. The only Macedonian links are found in Kashmir - The place where Alexander's horse, Bucephalus died is known as Bafliaze. Though some dispute it to be near Jhelum Pakistan. Mendhar town in Poonch district (India) of Jammu and Kashmir state, is name after Menander, the greek general of Alexander.

Popular heresay is that Kalaripayattu influenced Chinese Martial arts, as buddhist monks from ancient India like Bodhidharma travelled to China to spread buddhism.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Don't forget that the Indian army faced by the greeks was a professionally trained army. The little I read about Alexander's campaigns in India is convincing me that Alexander did not have much success as propoganda claims to be. If Alexander was successful, we would hear more about it.

There's a saying.

"Victory is thunderous, defeat is silent." Not the exact wording. No one likes to write about their own defeats. They like to write their own exploits. The reason why Indian books about Alexander's campaigns are very few and offers very little details is because almost of all India's history writings were nearly wiped out in the countless invasions and raids by Mughals, Turks, and Afghans. We had a great library, one of the greatest in the history of mankind in Bihar, modern state of India. It rivaled or surpassed the great library of Alexandria but was destroyed in an invasion by the Mughals.

And also, a lot of books were strongly discounted by British historians who had their own agenda. They purposedfully "recycled" or "misplaced" most surviving Indian historian accounts of Alexander and his campaigns.

I wish I could have the proof that you seek but it is not translated.

Wasnt he left after his war with Porus due to rising indiscipline in his army. So he didnt get to the ganges plains, so less stories of his conquests in India.

The Indian legacy of the Eastern Martial Arts is the spritiuality almost to the point of religion in the Eastern Martial Arts. Every nation had some sort of unarmed combat system developed independently ever since people learned to start clobbering each other with their bare hands. Boxing and wrestling are just as effective of a martial arts as karate and judo but the formers lacked the spirituality and meditation aspects. That people is the Indian legacy.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Don't forget that the Indian army faced by the greeks was a professionally trained army. The little I read about Alexander's campaigns in India is convincing me that Alexander did not have much success as propoganda claims to be. If Alexander was successful, we would hear more about it.

Then read more.

And also, a lot of books were strongly discounted by British historians who had their own agenda. They purposedfully "recycled" or "misplaced" most surviving Indian historian accounts of Alexander and his campaigns.

Bull ****, prove it.

Originally Posted by Praxus

Then read more.



Bull ****, prove it.

Go read the archives at Indian history sites documenting how British historians would "alter" these materials or misplace it. Google it.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Go read the archives at Indian history sites documenting how British historians would "alter" these materials or misplace it. Google it.

What makes you think they are valid? Perhaps they are trying to distract from the fact that they got their ass beat down by a bunch of rustics from Macedon.

BM,
Cool it man. Let it be we can discuss Alexander in another thread. Lets just stick to Praxus's initial topic.
...back to topic.
Being a student of ju-jitsu, I have found it very similar to kalaripayattu. In our federation there is a kalari master who teaches us his art. To be a kalaripayattu master one has to also master the art of acupressure, to provide immediate cure to injuries caused by over enthusiastic students.

I dont mean to hijack this thread but King Porus did not control a major Indian kingdom, his kingdom was of moderate size and strength, Alexander never made it to the stronger and much richer kingdoms to the east.

The fact that Alexander's bloodiest battle was in india speaks volumes about the challenges he faced, that too from a frontier kingdom, the Nandas were waiting for him with thousands of elephants and had the economic power t sustain a war with Greece for decades if necessary.

Because Alexander never really made it into India, we really do not learn much about him, he has never affected any of our lives because he never made it past frontier states of the land.

The only thing I can think of Alexander did indirectly was to give an easier chance for the Mauryan empire to establish itslf in the western areas of India where Alexander vacated. the Mauryan empire accounted for 28% of world trade and output until its collapse, even under the Guptas later, India never had it so good again.

In contrast we learn a lot from the Muslim invasions because THEY made it almost all the way into the kingdoms and into India.

Such claims that the Greeks brought martial arts are completely unfounded and based on the Eurocentric view of the world.
i wonder what would have happened had he faced the Chinese.

Err martial arts in India has its roots in the south, had it started in the north, i could have imagined a Greek link, in the south nothing is known of Alexander, too too far away.

In the north western part of Ancient India one can see an Indo-Greek link due to coinage technques later used by the Mauryan Empire and certain elements in artichecture especially in idol sculpture.

Originally Posted by Sameer

The fact that Alexander's bloodiest battle was in india speaks volumes about the challenges he faced, that too from a frontier kingdom, the Nandas were waiting for him with thousands of elephants and had the economic power t sustain a war with Greece for decades if necessary.

The fact that Alexander won a battle thousands of miles from home after defeating armies multiples of his size with little to no greek reinforcements speaks volumes about his capacity as a military general and the capacity of his Macedonian army as a whole. Tell me do you think that a single Indian kingdom could conquer all of India, invade Persia, conquer that, move into Asia minor conquer that, cross the Hellespont into Greece and defeat a greek army in Thrace or Macedon with little to no Indian reinforcements?

Such claims that the Greeks brought martial arts are completely unfounded and based on the Eurocentric view of the world.

I never claimed that, learn to read before you make sh1t up.

i wonder what would have happened had he faced the Chinese.

The macedonian phalangite would have a tremendous advantage against cavalry. I don't know much about Chinese weaponry of the time, so I can't really comment.

Err martial arts in India has its roots in the south, had it started in the north, i could have imagined a Greek link, in the south nothing is known of Alexander, too too far away.

This is all you had to say:-p