Thread: OE: Greek Pankration the Source of Eastern Martial Arts?

Originally Posted by Sameer

Alexander had reinforcements with Persians troops loyal to him and an Indian ally named the King of Taxilla.

"...with little to no greek reinforcements..."

Re-read my post.

The Mauryan Empire in its height never invaded anyone else because they never needed to, they had their hands full maintaining the Empire as it was. Besides we had the gold already, there was no need to go and steal it from others.

I didn't ask if they wanted to do it, I asked if they could do it.

What would we gain from going thousands of kms to the west when we had the gold in the country? Macedonia was not known as gold hotspot number one, sure maybe Persia...

I didn't ask that.

No one doubts that Alexander was a great General, how you concluded that I said that.....

I was trying to prove that his and his armies feat in India was amazing.

I said Alexander had little impact and very little of greek culture ever made it throughout India and SINCE THE TOPIC WAS ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS, SOMETHING THAT CAME FROM THE SOUTH, it has no relevance.
.

Which is I suppose why you said this: The fact that Alexander's bloodiest battle was in india speaks volumes about the challenges he faced, that too from a frontier kingdom, the Nandas were waiting for him with thousands of elephants and had the economic power t sustain a war with Greece for decades if necessary.

The Persians had the economic power to sustain war with Greece ad infinitum, but they didn't because their armies were anihilated. My point was that; It was his bloodiest battle because he had few greek reinforcements and his men were tired and wanted to go back to their homes, not because India had the capacity to stop him.

Err you seem to be stuck on the same unrelated mantra.
"The Persians had the economic power to sustain war with Greece ad infinitum, but they didn't because their armies were anihilated. My point was that; It was his bloodiest battle because he had few greek reinforcements and his men were tired and wanted to go back to their homes, not because India had the capacity to stop him."

Indians were not Persians and the Nandas were not Persians, hence you cannot conclude that Alex would have won or lost, do you even know the disposition of the Nandas?


I will leave you to that.

The topic was about martial arts


More than 93% of Ndia was not invaded, Alexander had at best a marginal impact on India, martial arts came from the south, no impact at all there.

story ends

Alexander had the hardest battle in India, that is fact, i am not interested in the reasons why because its irrelevant to this thread, had you started an Alexander thread, I would comment furthur on your posts regarding Alexander and Indian empries and their abilities.

In sum he faught against a marginal King, then he left and whatever Greek influence there was in the extreme north west of the land was quickly replaced by the Mauryan wave. This was what I was trying to put across, not Alexander's abilities as a General. Alex apparently had a lot of respect for the fighting abilities of King Porus.

Alex did not invade India when he only made it to the north west and then left

The Muslims did they INVADED INDIA. (minus the extreme southern kingdoms.)

You see we Indians are very aware of what invasion means and what "great feats" are all about.

Yes Alex was a great general and accomplished a lot for his age, invading India proper is not one of them. hence he does not play a great role in Indian history and is barely mentioned while Muslims invasions are. this was why I brought up Alex as we were talking about martial arts, the Greeks or macedonians never had such an influence in the land.

Some info about Indian martial arts

This indigenous martial arts, under the name of Kalari or Kalaripayit exists only in South India today. Kalarippayat is said to be the world's original martial art. Originating at least 1,300 years ago, India's Kalaripayit is the oldest martial art taught today. It is also the most potentially violent, because students advance from unarmed combat to the use of swords, sharpened flexible metal lashes, and peculiar three-bladed daggers. More than 2,000 years old, it was developed by warriors of the Cheras kingdom in Kerala. Training followed strict rituals and guidelines. The entrance to the 14 m-by-7 m arena, or kalari, faced east and had a bare earth floor. Fighters took Shiva and Shakti, the god and goddess of power, as their deities. From unarmed kicks and punches, kalarippayat warriors would graduate to sticks, swords, spears and daggers and study the marmas—the 107 vital spots on the human body where a blow can kill. Training was conducted in secret, the lethal warriors unleashed as a surprise weapon against the enemies of Cheras.

Father and founder of Zen Buddhism (called C’han in China), Boddidharma, a Brahmin born in Kacheepuram in Tamil Nadu, in 522 A.D. arrived at the courts of the Chinese Emperor Liang Nuti, of the 6th dynasty. He taught the Chinese monks Kalaripayattu, a very ancient Indian martial art, so that they could defend themselves against the frequent attacks of bandits. In time, the monks became famous all over China as experts in bare-handed fighting, later known as the Shaolin boxing art. The Shaolin temple which has been handed back a few years ago by the communist Government to the C’han Buddhist monks, inheritors of Boddhidharma’s spiritual and martial teachings, by the present Chinese Government, is now open to visitors. On one of the walls, a fresco can be seen, showing Indian dark-skinned monks, teaching their lighter-skinned Chinese brothers the art of bare-handed fighting. On this painting are inscribed: “Tenjiku Naranokaku” which means: “the fighting techniques to train the body (which come) from India…”

Kalari payatt was banned by the British in 1793. (Refer to chapter on European Imperialism).

(For more information on martial arts refer to chapter India and China and Kalarippayattu and Kalari Payatte - The martial art of Kerala

(source: The Boddhisattva Warriors: The Origin, Inner Philosophy, History and Symbolism of the Buddhist Martial Art Within India and China - By Terence Dukes/ Shifu Nagaboshi Tomio p. 3 - 158-174 and 242. A Western Journalist on India: a ferengi's columns - By Francois Gautier Har-Anand Publications January 2001 ISBN 8124107955 p. 155-158).

Silambam – Indian Stick Fighting





The art Nillaikalakki Silambam was brought to the royal court during the reign of the Cheran, Cholan and Pandian emperors, once powerful rulers of India.

***


The art Nillaikalakki Silambam, which exists for more than five thousand years, is an authentic art which starts with the stick called Silambamboo (1.68 meters long). It originates from the Krunji mountains of south India, and is as old as the Indian sub-continent itself.

The natives called Narikuravar were using a staff called Silambamboo as a weapon to defend themselves against wild animals, and also to display their skill during their religious festivals. The Hindu scholars and yogis who went to the Krunji mountains to meditate got attracted by the display of this highly skilled spinning Silambamboo. The art Nillaikalakki Silambam therefore became a part of the Hindu scholars and yogis training, as they were taught by the Narikuravar.

They brought the art to the royal court during the reign of the Cheran, Cholan and Pandian emperors, once powerful rulers of India.

(source: Silamban – Indian Stick Fighting).
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Wa...ient_India.htm


on a side note, remember King Porus' elephants did not have armour, the Nandas did and their cavalry had too as they were much richer than Porus. The nandas also had artillery.