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Thread: Ancient Chinese battle case studies

  1. #31
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xinhui
    As RollingWave pointed out, only the selected few were equipped with a Arabian mount for ceremony purpose or reserved as imperial guards. What makes the Campaign of Han Wudi interesting is that it is one of the few instances in history where heavy infantry (Han) was able to overcome the light cav (Hun).
    Wow, fascinating. Sounds like how Ivan the Terrible's army defeated the Crimeans in the Battle of Molodi & Hussite tactics.
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    okay, firing an AK on a horse's back-- that has got to go into the dumb propaganda thread. yeesh.
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  3. #33
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    okay, firing an AK on a horse's back-- that has got to go into the dumb propaganda thread. yeesh.
    Would you prefer a Springfield Trapdoor carbine?
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by xinhui View Post
    cavalry of the Hu Dynasty. Ready to do battle against Xiong Nu once again in Xinjing.
    Are they PLA? Or PAP/CAPF? I have seen some pics of PAP ponies on patrol; they seemed gun trained and quite functional.

  5. #35
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    Those are PLA, while the PAP has mounted police, they are not commissioned as a single unit.

    They make great extras in many PR films.
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  6. #36
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    AFAIK , the expedition of Han Wudi was still largely based off their cavalry, their infantry was mostly for logistic support purpose. I.E the cavalries were like the fighter planes and the infantries were like the carrier support group.

    I'll jump to a battle in a much different time period for some fun, the siege of PyongYang on



    Date: January 8th 1593 (lunar calender, so it was more likely Late Feburary / Early March)

    Site: PyongYang , Korea.

    Combatant : Li Ru Song (Commander of the Liao Dong garrison - Ming dynasty China) vs Konishi Yukinaga ( Daiymo of Settsu , commander of the first army of the Japanese force.)

    Strength : Ming : 36,000 Japanese: 18,000 (A small number of Korean forces also supported the Ming, some of the civilians captured by the Japanese were also conscripted on their side.)

    Result : decisive Ming Victory.


    Background : The Imjin wars, as Japan's Segoku Jida (warring states period) was drawing to a close, Toyotomi Hideyoshi managed to subdue most of the Daiymos of the realm under his banner. It is not completely clear of Hideyoshi's motive to go into Korea, though we might interperate that it is to let off the steam of the now restless samurais who no longer have enemies to fight. hopefully conquering new lands and securing his legacy.

    When the Japanese landed in 1592, they met virtually no opposition and within 2 months of landing in Bushan they had taken every major cities of the Josen kingdom. (2 months, thats about how long you would take just to march an army)

    The Josen court have long been at peace and basically forgotten how to figth wars, as evident by the Japanese' incrediable pace in taking the country, they immediately turned to the Ming dynasty of China, who at first hesitated as the slew of confusing report sounded quiet unbelievable at first, when they finally realize that Josen had indeed been overran, they decided to go in around late August in 1592 (the Japanese landed on April 14th) . and took most of the later 3 months gathering their forces.

    The Japanese forces however, were not really as well off as it would appear, as their rapid pace vastly overstretched their supply line, which was made more complicated by the large number of insurgent locals that constantly harrase them. What was more serious was that their navy was getting hammered by the Korean navy under Yi Sun Shen. which seriously damaged their ability to further reinforce and resupply from Japan itself.

    So in this background, the Ming army crossed the Yalu river on the last week of 1592 (in the lunar calender) and reached Pyong Yang just around new years' time, after some intial attempts to barter (or capture the Japanese commander Konishi while bartering) the two armies clashed on 1/08.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Battle: The Ming plan of attack was well documented. they essentially came in from the West, and intentionally left the East side relatively untouched, and planned for a 3 side assualt. (with a part of their force ambushing on the routs out of the east gates.)

    On the south side, the Ming send general Zhu Da Xiun who would lead the first wave of attack, his troops would swap clothes with the Korean forces who are supporting the operation to confuse the Japanese .

    On the north side, general Cha Da So would lead the attack on the high grounds directly north of Pyong Yang. (they would also try to go around and ambush the east rout)

    The bulk of the army would attack from the west gate, with Li Ru Song himself and the rest of his generals leading.



    There are detailed letters written by Song Yin Chang, the chief administrator of the operation , back to Beijing that described their plan :

    "The night before the operation, we will fire off poison gas rocket arrows into all the corners of Pyong Yang and smoke the enemies thoroughly, just before dawn, we will fire off incendiery rocket arrows into the west / north / south areas of PyongYang. after the city begin to burn we will open fire with our cannons and then do a full out assault. we will leave the east side open and ambush on the outside"

    This appear to be basically how they conducted the operation, as the attack commenced the southern Japanese troops was surprised when the attackers were revealed to be Ming troops, and the troops on the western end had to pull off some of their force in haste to try to aid the southern portion.

    The figthing was fierce on the walls to the west and south, Li Ru Song's horse was shot from under him by Japanese arbeques, but the overwhelming fire power and confusing tactics of the Ming were soon too much for the Japanese force and they retreated to a north eastern corner of the city. at that point the Ming slowed to regroup, Li Ru Song judge it too dangerous to storm the remaining japanese head on and had begun to plan to burn that section of the city.

    By night, the Japanese forces predictablly took the east gates and sally out, they were hit by the ambushes of Ming forces while crossing the river to the east and took some more casualties. but they managed an pretty impressive retreating march back to Seoul.

    Casaulty figure varies, but it was clear that it wasn't very heavy on the Ming side, the official documents of the Ming cited that 796 were killed and 1492 were wounded) the Japanese lost a significant part of their army but still pulled back into Seoul largely intacted (probably lost 1/3-1/2 of their total force ).

    Tactically, this was pretty impressive on teh Ming part, anytime you manage to take a city in a head on assault without overwhelming odds in one day, and did it while losing a lot less men than your enemy, you did well.

    Strategically though, this was pretty much inevitable, Pyong Yang was the the tip of a vastly overstretched logistic line, the Japanese forces almost had to contract back to the south, the Ming forces would run into more trouble while going down into Seoul (partly due to the faulty intelligence on the Josen part) and managed to retake the city in March without a direct assault (they manage to find one of the secert grain stash of the Japanese force in the area , and the Japanese pulled out after losing it.). after that the battle stalled and the two sides entered into negotiation (but they would fight against in 1597-98)

  7. #37
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    Sorry for the late reply, one thing I would like to add is that the Ming army has over 200 large canon under its command, including the much feared "grand genera" in that battle. In fact, it was the largest concentration of artillery in a single battle to-date.

    It was the superior firepower that won the day.

    actically, this was pretty impressive on teh Ming part, anytime you manage to take a city in a head on assault without overwhelming odds in one day, and did it while losing a lot less men than your enemy, you did well.
    The Korean was not happy as the Ming force leveled part of the city in the process.
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  8. #38
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    ..........
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by xinhui View Post
    Sorry for the late reply, one thing I would like to add is that the Ming army has over 200 large canon under its command, including the much feared "grand genera" in that battle. In fact, it was the largest concentration of artillery in a single battle to-date.

    It was the superior firepower that won the day.



    The Korean was not happy as the Ming force leveled part of the city in the process.
    I read the letters of the administrator in charge of this operation, he had one specific letter where he said the grand generals didn't get there in time for this battle. seeing that he was the guy in charge of the operation I typically take his word at face value when it comes to stuff directly related to the Ming.

    However, it appears that part of the plan also included firing a ton of incendery rocket arrows into the city anyway. so even if the city wasn't leveled by the cannons it was quiet likely that it would have burned pretty badly.

    (also, the grand generals at this time wasn't exactly huge, they're bigger than regular cannons but compatively they're just medium cannons in comtempory European measures at best. it is questionable if those type of cannons can level a walls made up of harden earth core that PyongYang likely was. at least in a short period of time anyway. the Ming did get heavy European cannons... but it roughly 2 decades after the Imjin war)



    Those letters were a fun read for anyone capable enough in traditional Chinese, because some of it were quiet amusing, such as those letters he wrote to Korean officials basically just raging in their face .
    Last edited by RollingWave; 11 May 10, at 09:06.

  10. #40
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    Xinhui

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    Chinese Art Students Create Transformer Guan Yu | Oddity Central - Collecting Oddities

    A group of graduating students, from China’s Central Academy of Fine Arts, chose Guan Yu as the model for their original Transformer statue. Using the parts of an old Jiefang truck, for which they paid roughly $4,500, these talented students have created a 9.4-meters-tall, 4-ton-heavy Transformer. According to its creators, only his face and blade are original pieces, the rest all came from the truck.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Xinhui

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    thanks
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    Been a long time since I done one of these.

    Battle of Jin Jing, 204 B.C

    Combatant : Chen Yu vs Han Xing

    Forces : 100-200 k vs 30 k

    Result: decsive victory for Han Xing.

    In this battle, another famous proverb was born.

    Prelude

    As quickly as the Qin united China, it fell apart shortly after the death of the first emperor, as the remaining noblemens and peasants of the 6 former states rose up in rebellion, the Kingdom of Qin blew up and Xiang Yu, who held great sway over the nominal leader of the anti-Qin Alliance, carved up China once more into many fiefdom roughly based on the old outline of the 7 states (with the Qin being carved up into many smaller state)

    But this sort of arrangement was obviously not going to statisfy everyone, and soon everyone was going at war against each other again, While Xiang Yu raced around China fighting all who opposed him, a looming threat began to emerge.

    Liu Bang had been the first general to enter the Qin capital and forced the surrender of the Qin emperor, but he was later on only given a fiefdom deep in the mountains of ShiChuan, against the original promise that he would be given all of Qin, at first Liu acted obidently but he was plotting his comeback, as China exploded into war everywhere again, he made his move and quickly took out most of his neighboring kingdoms.

    As war raged on it was becomming clear that Liu Bang and Xiang Yu were the two big power, while everyone else was kinda just stuck between them, the war raged back and forth and at this point Han Xin began to really establish himself as the primary general of Liu Bang's forces.

    But Liu was wary of Han's ability from the start, and he had left him with only a small army to try and quell the Northern Kingdoms of Zhao and Qi while he lead the main forces himself against Xiang Yu's main army in the south. thus was just a small and rather raw army Han Xin marched agianst the kingdom of Zhao, who met against him with a force that was easily 2 to 4 times his size and holding the high ground.


    Battle

    The Zhao army was lead by Chen Yu, his advisor Li Zhou Ju told him that the best course of action would be to hold the pass they were at, and then have a second army cut of Han Xin's retreat and just starve him out. but Chen Yu rejected this, reasoning that with superior force and positioning they should simply go ahead and engage.

    Meanwhile, Han Xin made the apparently inexplicable move of demanding battle, despite clearly being out numbered and weary from a long march, Chen Yu decided to oblige and marched out with his force to attack.

    After a brief fight, Han Xin's forces were apparently routed and they fled towards the nearby river, Chen Yu gave chase, but at the river with no where to run, the Han forces regrouped put up a very stiff resistence, at this point the Zhao army decided to withdraw temporarily and regroup and rest and bit for a final push, but when they turned to their horror they realized that their camp was already taken by Han Xin's forces and now it's flags are all that of Han Xin's

    Panicing at this sudden turn of event, the Zhao army begin to fall apart, and they were being attacked on both end by Han Xin's forces at the river and those that had taken the camp. the army completely fell apart and Chen Yu was killed . his advisor Li Zhou Ju surrendered to Han Xin.

    When Han Xin's men later asked him "Why did you set up our last stand against the river? that seems to be completely against military logic" he replied "But I say If your back is against the wall you'll fight the hardest" Thus was born the proverb "Fighting with your back aganist the river"

    Aftermath

    Han Xin essentially went in to North Eastern China with a small force and ended up taking all 3 state (Zhao / Yan / Qi) by himself and with an army that rivaled both Liu Bang and Xiang Yu, but he decided to stay loyal to Liu Bang despite several advisors telling him he should just go independent, this and the following battle of Wei river shifted the balance of war to he Han side and eventually sealed the Han victory, however Han Xin would end poorly as he was eventually killed by the Han court mostly out of fear of his military talent
    Last edited by RollingWave; 25 Oct 11, at 10:31.

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