Thread: 1421 & 1434 Columbus discovered America?

And everything he ever wrote is accsessable today, still available?

Originally Posted by DragoonGuard

And everything he ever wrote is accsessable today, still available?

Not everything. The Qing took a whopping to the Ming's recordings (to put it in a perspective you can understaned. Labour (the Qing) took a rewritting of the Conservative (the Ming) history.

However, Zheng He's hometown got a copy of his exploits that is still available toi be viewed today.

Is there a translated source of his un-touched writings? Are they acessable?

If you've read them do they cover the period(s) in question?

I'd be interested to see other sources other than what has been looked at so far.

I picked up "1434" at a book store, got half-way through, and put it aside. I never read "1421".

I am not a historian, linguist, or China watcher. The portions of the book which describe trade between China and India, I found plausible. I could even swallow the slight possibility of an envoy traveling overland near Suez, to embark on a local Mediterranean ship and thus tour parts of the Med, which of course has been heavily traveled since Phoenician and Greek times.

But the descriptions of the giant vessels, and the "libraries" they contained, turned me off a bit. In the Napoleonic era, ship designers reached a limit with the hundred gun 3-deck ships, which would all be smaller than the Treasure Ships of China by a wide margin. My understanding (subject to correction) is that there is a natural size limit beyond which a wooden ship simply cannot have the strength necessary to travel the open sea without breaking apart. This natural limit was in place until the late 1800's, when steel and iron began to form significant portions of the hull.

A more likely way to circumnavigate is with smaller ships, not larger, crewed with expert seamen and navigators.

It seems a popular sport these days to denigrate the accomplishments of the Europeans of the Renaissance era. "Oh, the Muslims knew all that stuff 900 A.D." "Any wealth or achievements were done on the backs of exploited peoples" stuff like that, as if it were impossible that Europeans were unable to achieve anything on their own. And now we have Da Vinci as a plagiarist, and the expert Portuguese and Spanish explorers cribbing from Chinese maps. I don't buy it.

Originally Posted by DragoonGuard

Is there a translated source of his un-touched writings? Are they acessable?

If you've read them do they cover the period(s) in question?

I'd be interested to see other sources other than what has been looked at so far.

Google is your best bet at English sources.

Thanks. Now, here's something else I wanted to make more people aware of........


The Legend of Nessie the Ultimate Loch Ness Monster Site

Originally Posted by DragoonGuard

Thanks. Now, here's something else I wanted to make more people aware of........


The Legend of Nessie the Ultimate Loch Ness Monster Site

Please start a new thread on this topic in the pub subform. We like to keep topics to their individual threads.

It seems a popular sport these days to denigrate the accomplishments of the Europeans of the Renaissance era. "Oh, the Muslims knew all that stuff 900 A.D." "Any wealth or achievements were done on the backs of exploited peoples" stuff like that, as if it were impossible that Europeans were unable to achieve anything on their own. And now we have Da Vinci as a plagiarist, and the expert Portuguese and Spanish explorers cribbing from Chinese maps. I don't buy it.

*Agreed, I would call it an evolution, taking the idea one step further in any field you may be in. Nobody can quantivly claim such knowledge for themselves or that they themselves created it. It existed in some form or another before their respective age and all they did was advance the core idea and improve upon it.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

It seems a popular sport these days to denigrate the accomplishments of the Europeans of the Renaissance era. "Oh, the Muslims knew all that stuff 900 A.D." "Any wealth or achievements were done on the backs of exploited peoples" stuff like that, as if it were impossible that Europeans were unable to achieve anything on their own. And now we have Da Vinci as a plagiarist, and the expert Portuguese and Spanish explorers cribbing from Chinese maps. I don't buy it.

*Agreed, I would call it an evolution, taking the idea one step further in any field you may be in. Nobody can quantivly claim such knowledge for themselves or that they themselves created it. It existed in some form or another before their respective age and all they did was advance the core idea and improve upon it.

Are you saying the likes of Pedro the first, or Magellan were taking what the Chinese were doing in the east/far east as far as astro navigation goes and used it to forge Westward?

Originally Posted by DragoonGuard

Are you saying the likes of Pedro the first, or Magellan were taking what the Chinese were doing in the east/far east as far as astro navigation goes and used it to forge Westward?

No, they were not taking what the Chinese were doing. Giving China credit for what Spain and Portugal were doing is absurd and ignores the rest of history. When the book your advancing claims China was doing X, the Portugese efforts were already underway with the colonization of the Azores using Carracks a development of the Cog a purely European invention. Likewise we have no source showing a Chinese Marine Astrolabe something we know existed in Europe possibly as far back as 1295. Likewise China has nothing to do with the fall of the Byzantine Empire to the Turks combining with the fall of the Mongols and the great plagues to kill the overland spice road, the Reconquista that provided excess population or the profit motive that made the chance of a hold full of spice worth the risk to life and limb to Spain and Portugal sitting at they were in an ideal spot to make such voyages. We can even track each step of the evolution of the age of exploration. By the time of Prince Henry the Navigator the age of exploration was already well under way in embryonic form.

Every bit of the age of Exploration is securely grounded in the technology in the area at the time, the political and economic situation as it existed at the time ie real history not some mythical visit never mentioned in records and unsupported by any physical evidence. Menzies and anyone who buys into his theory's is either stupid or ignorant. You've been educated here on the nature of the historical method- will you shed your ignorance or are you stupid?

Youre a desk jockey aren't you? Arrogant too.

You've never been at sea (ocean in a small wooden craft) have you.

Mind your manners when addressing a stranger.

You would never have made a detective would you? - Lets allow the murderer to go free because he didn't a photo report of his activities at the crime scene.


Careful how you use those two words - mind now.

Originally Posted by DragoonGuard

Youre a desk jockey aren't you? Arrogant too.

Not a desk jockey, but yes I am arrogant.

You've never been at sea

Yes I have

(ocean in a small wooden craft) have you.

Wooden no, 165' factory trawler in the Gulf of Alaska and the Bering Strait in September and October yes. Ever seen that show- Deadliest catch? Been there done that except were were after cod and sole not crab but the same seas.

Mind your manners when addressing a stranger.

Don't have to, and heres 10 good reasons why.

1. I have 3x the number of PM's as you have total posts, 2. I have 4788 posts over several years here 3. This my internet home, I am known here- your the new comer who has yet to prove themselves. Advancing Menzies is not a good way to do it. 4. Did you read the Wabbit survival guide? You should, it will make your stay here longer and better. BTW I wrote it. 5. You keep advancing a book and author that have been destroyed by the historical method, real academics, academic professionals here on this site and others. 6. I am not just an A-hole vet, but am in training to become a professional historian- and I am the junior historical personage in this thread compared to some who have weighed in who have far better qualifications and no axe to grind, but an honest desire for the truth. 7. Your not a mod or an admin. 8. I no longer think your ignorant, just stupid. 9. Its the internet and 10. I just don't give a rats a$$ about your feelings, ego or pride.

You would never have made a detective would you? - Lets allow the murderer to go free because he didn't a photo report of his activities at the crime scene.

Detectives take the evidence and build a theory. Menzies takes his imagination and builds a house on sand. There is zero evidence to support his claims and tons of evidence to refute it. Not to mention we know he used a forged map, a map any cartographic historian, or Chinese historian could have told him was a fraud.

Careful how you use those two words - mind now.

See my list above.

And in case your not offended enough- here is a cyber-middle finger at you just because I can. Now your more than welcome to take the tinfoil out of your hat and devote yourself to the study of real history. Or you can keep on thinking ET phoned home and the world around you is a giant put on conspiring to keep the truth buried despite the fact that the truth is staring you in the face.

Wooden no, 165' factory trawler in the Gulf of Alaska and the Bering Strait in September and October yes. Ever seen that show- Deadliest catch? Been there done that except were were after cod and sole not crab but the same seas.


Oh! you are priceless My whole family as Scots deep sea trawlremen still piss our selves at the TV show antics of what weather you people think is 'bad'

Laughable to us all here in Scotland who spend our time in the Atlantic in a real 'swell' LMFAO!

Originally Posted by zraver

Not a desk jockey, but yes I am arrogant.



Yes I have



Wooden no, 165' factory trawler in the Gulf of Alaska and the Bering Strait in September and October yes. Ever seen that show- Deadliest catch? Been there done that except were were after cod and sole not crab but the same seas.



Don't have to, and heres 10 good reasons why.

1. I have 3x the number of PM's as you have total posts, 2. I have 4788 posts over several years here 3. This my internet home, I am known here- your the new comer who has yet to prove themselves. Advancing Menzies is not a good way to do it. 4. Did you read the Wabbit survival guide? You should, it will make your stay here longer and better. BTW I wrote it. 5. You keep advancing a book and author that have been destroyed by the historical method, real academics, academic professionals here on this site and others. 6. I am not just an A-hole vet, but am in training to become a professional historian- and I am the junior historical personage in this thread compared to some who have weighed in who have far better qualifications and no axe to grind, but an honest desire for the truth. 7. Your not a mod or an admin. 8. I no longer think your ignorant, just stupid. 9. Its the internet and 10. I just don't give a rats a$$ about your feelings, ego or pride.



Detectives take the evidence and build a theory. Menzies takes his imagination and builds a house on sand. There is zero evidence to support his claims and tons of evidence to refute it. Not to mention we know he used a forged map, a map any cartographic historian, or Chinese historian could have told him was a fraud.




See my list above.

And in case your not offended enough- here is a cyber-middle finger at you just because I can. Now your more than welcome to take the tinfoil out of your hat and devote yourself to the study of real history. Or you can keep on thinking ET phoned home and the world around you is a giant put on conspiring to keep the truth buried despite the fact that the truth is staring you in the face.

Christ I've really gotten under yer skin haven't I?

BTW who gives a F how many PM's somebody has?

Ho, ho, I'm so much more the military professional than the likes of yourself is. Kain fit a mean?

You end up in a bit o weather - it ends up on TV.

We are in this weather every trip we don't even tell the wife.


Pussies. (fannies)