Tsarist Russia and the Ottoman Empire

**great one** · 11 Nov 08,, 22:41

I wish to start a thread on the history of the Tsarist Russian Empire and its traditional enemy the Ottoman Empire. They had been in religous conflict for centuries and led to such wars as the Crimean War and the Caucasus campaign of the First World War.

I invite as people people as possible to share their knowledge on this very interesting topic, both historically and how it affects the world today.

**ahmet** · 15 Nov 08,, 13:14

What I know is there were no real religious conflict between them. The real conflict comes from Russia's desire to reach southern seas. Tsarist Russia just didn't make it clear and when Ottoman started to lose their power, she used religion when waging war against Ottoman. Russia was just searching for an excuse for a war.

**great one** · 15 Nov 08,, 16:34

So Tsarist Russia was using religion as an excuse for territoral expansion

**zraver** · 15 Nov 08,, 16:51

Originally Posted by ahmet

What I know is there were no real religious conflict between them. The real conflict comes from Russia's desire to reach southern seas. Tsarist Russia just didn't make it clear and when Ottoman started to lose their power, she used religion when waging war against Ottoman. Russia was just searching for an excuse for a war.

Not entirely true, the Romanovs were at least tangentially related to the last of the Byzantine Emperors, and through them to the heritage of Rome. This gave them a claim on the city of Constantinople

**ahmet** · 15 Nov 08,, 19:44

Originally Posted by great one

So Tsarist Russia was using religion as an excuse for territoral expansion

Yes, that's right. Several times Ottoman is blamed for not caring for non-Muslims' rights in Ottoman lands most of which are resulted in Russian-Ottoman wars.

Also, what zraver told must be true. Though it comes as a secondary reason. Even if it wasn't for the heritage, Russia would want to capture southern lands, so that they could control the profitable Mediterranean trade.

**xerxes** · 16 Nov 08,, 00:14

I am reading a book by professor Quigly, he has a good chapter about Russia and its origin. Whenever, I have time I will try to post some of his views. They were intresting.

**Ironduke** · 16 Nov 08,, 08:27

Originally Posted by ahmet

What I know is there were no real religious conflict between them. The real conflict comes from Russia's desire to reach southern seas. Tsarist Russia just didn't make it clear and when Ottoman started to lose their power, she used religion when waging war against Ottoman. Russia was just searching for an excuse for a war.

Both empires expanded and eventually met. The first conflict occurred after the Russian conquest of the Khanate of Astrakhan, upon which the Turks tried to reverse the Russian conquest by besieging and blockading the Russians. The funny thing about conquest it seems to make necessary further conquests for "security". Like how the road to India was "threatened" by anybody else holding Palestine, Arabia, and Iraq, and how it was deemed necessary to intervene in Persia and Afghanistan to protect India from the Russians.

The Russians did view themselves as the successors of the Byzantine Empire, as there was extensive intermarriage and the niece of the last Byzantine Emperor was married to Ivan III, and used that argue themselves as having legitimate interests in those regions as the only surviving Orthodox state. During the 16th-17th centuries, most of the people in the Ottoman Empire were Orthodox, but it's more of an excuse to intervene.

The whole religion argument is more of a tool that was employed to achieve means such as expanding holdings, power, wealth, whether by the Ottomans or the Russians. The Ottomans claimed to be seeking rights to the wrongs inflicted by the Russians against the former khanates along the Black Sea in the early conflicts, and the Russians used the same argument with regards to their co-religionists in southeastern Europe and the Middle East.

**ahmet** · 16 Nov 08,, 11:03

Originally Posted by Ironduke

...During the 16th-17th centuries, most of the people in the Ottoman Empire were Orthodox, but it's more of an excuse to intervene.

The whole religion argument is more of a tool that was employed to achieve means such as expanding holdings, power, wealth, whether by the Ottomans or the Russians....

Agreed, the politics is the sharing of wealth and ideology is the tool to realize it.

**great one** · 16 Nov 08,, 16:35

You know the historian Bernard Lewis is quite a well respected authority on this subject.

**~~neyzen~~** · 16 Nov 08,, 19:17

Bernard Lewis is expert of Ottoman history and Middle East. Any way... What does he say about the subject?

**great one** · 16 Nov 08,, 19:43

In his book "The Middle East 2000 Years of History From The Rise Of Christianity To The Present Day" Bernard Lewis covers some of these points. He mentions how "Catherine the Great" in the 18th century expanded Imperial Russia`s influence Southwards and this brought it into conflict with both the Ottoman Empire and Safarid Iran

**xerxes** · 16 Nov 08,, 20:20

Originally Posted by great one

In his book "The Middle East 2000 Years of History From The Rise Of Christianity To The Present Day" Bernard Lewis covers some of these points. He mentions how "Catherine the Great" in the 18th century expanded Imperial Russia`s influence Southwards and this brought it into conflict with both the Ottoman Empire and Safarid Iran

I would say the samething, but does that make me a expert?

**Big K** · 16 Nov 08,, 21:41

my question is:
why anybody didnt realise that this conflict will "eat" them all?

**Kansas Bear** · 16 Nov 08,, 23:03

Originally Posted by great one

In his book "The Middle East 2000 Years of History From The Rise Of Christianity To The Present Day" Bernard Lewis covers some of these points. He mentions how "Catherine the Great" in the 18th century expanded Imperial Russia`s influence Southwards and this brought it into conflict with both the Ottoman Empire and Safarid Iran

He also calls the Ottoman Empire, Turco-Persian!!