Pakistani Genocide

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 09 Sep 05, 22:38

Originally Posted by Ray

Originally Posted by Hongkongfuey
Ray, get this through your skull mate. SAMILA BOSE (no H after the S) is a West Bengali Indian Hindu who is not pro Pak. She's just neutral when it comes to this research. That is what I am saying. SHE IS NEUTRAL IS WHAT I'M SAYING RAY.

When one has nothing worthwhile to proffer, then such stuff as spellings come into play.

Her name is immaterial to me. It maybe that of God to you!

Does being a Hindu any indication that she cannot be pro Pakistan? Kuldip Nayyar is also a Hindu who is pro Pakistan. Lights candles at Wagah at the drop of a hat. Gets the media coverage!

BTW are you sure that she is a Hindu; not that it matters. Subash Bose is believed to have married an Austrian Catholic and Catholics bring up their children so. And it follows.

But then I never knew religion has something to do with liking a country or not!!

Why do you assume that being a Hindu/ Catholic is the basic index for hating or liking Pakistan! There are some Hindus in Pakistan. Do they hate Pakistan? Kuldip Nayyar loves Pakistan. Nothing wrong in that actually.

A very odd line of justification.

See above. I've stated several times that i think Professor Bose's reporting is fair and neutral.

Originally Posted by Ray

I do not know whether West Bengalis are generally against Pakistan, and frankly i dont really care.

Actually I care less, but then it was in response to your:

She is Bengali Ray - The Bengalis were the enemy of the West Pakistanis, your memory seems a little hazy to say the least!!

Amnesia should not hit you so early in life.

Pedantic point. It's pretty obvious

Originally Posted by Ray

We've been through the professor thing a while back, Ray. Look through the prvious posts, it's mentioned there somewhere, I'm not going to re-type it.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting that the standard of education is higher in Indian universities than the US, but if you are, you're sorely mistaken. They have neither the funds not the facilities to carry out comparable research and teaching in India.

Not really.

The number of graduates is the issue. Also, Indian and Orientals take their studies very seriously as per the US report and so the number of professors would not be surprising.

The Americans are people who don't waste time on pursuing educational highs. They want to get down to the business of earning as fast as possible. Orientals do not have their derring do and hence compensate with safer paths like being a professer. Hence, professors of acutal and "sponsored' repute amongst the Orientals are a dime to a dozen! The Orientals love to exhibit their educational prowess at the cost of even an empty stomach. Have you not seen those visiting cards which carry a long list of degrees that they have acquired and which are no use to man or beast except to impress?

Quantity is not equal to standard or quality of education.

Originally Posted by Ray

Further, you wrote this:

On the other hand, the Bose report i quoted, is from a BENGALI as well, but she cannot be accused of bias because she concludes that all the accusations of mass rapings of her own people, the Bengalis, by the West Pakistani troops is false.

she concludes that all the accusations of mass rapings of her own people, the Bengalis, by the West Pakistani troops is false.

Christ, since when have East Pakistanis become own people to West Bengalis? The guys who have taken our hearth and home are our own people?

Good logic.

Pedantic point again. East and West Bengalis will be classed as Bengalis to some and not to others.

Originally Posted by Ray

Why must you crank in issues without thought just to prove a point!!!

It is like saying a Mohajir is in love with the UP Hindus for chucking him out of his home!!!

Tell a Mhoajir that and he will see that you are six feet underground!

It is like saying Dracula can't see his reflection in a mirror, but his hair is always so neatly combed!

Right

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 09 Sep 05, 22:55

Originally Posted by Ray

My dear Hongkong, my profession was the military and I dare say I have held a rank that does think about these issues and not merely killing the enemy on the battlefield!

The Rand Report and also the history of Indo Pak Wars indicate that wars can be sustained for 'x' period of time by Pakistan and 'y' period of time by India. Further, international intervention would come in by 'z' period of time.

Now if that be the case, then come hail or high waters, East Pakistan's military infrastructure should have been so engineered and constructed that it could sustain the maximum period India could wage war. It is as simple as that. Mrs Gandhi's eloquence is not the issue. She was stating the obvious - the obvious that the Pakistanis didn't care about since they didn't care about East Pakistan! Or are you stating that the West Pakistanis are blind chumps and could not see what Mrs Gandhi and the world knew, even non military men and women!

Now, if East Pakistan was geared structurally in combat ratio and in logistics to sustain East Pakistan to the mximum time India could wage a cogent war without collapsing because of a lack of war materiel or suffering a breakdown of economy, then obviously East Pakistan would be saved!

In other words, one need not have worried about the sea and Mrs Gandhi! The stuff would ahve alrady been in East Pakistan to sustain the Indian offensive!

Further, does it not prove that if Paskitan was serious about defending East Pakistan, then shouldn't they have positioned all the things that you claim were denied because of the sea and geographical disparity ab initio?

Now have you got that in your thin skinned skull or has your brains fallen off?

Alright, follow it through. West wing Pakistan = 6 times size of East Wing Pakistan. West Wing of Pakistan needs 6 times as many soldiers as east wing to defend it.

Total size of Pakistan Army pre-1971 = 400,000.

Ideally, you'd need 57,000 troops in East Pakistan to defend it and 6 X 57,000 = 342,000 troops in West Pakistan to defend its territory equally. (Total = 342,000 + 57,000 = 399,000 soldiers).

East Pakistan required 57,000 troops. It had over 20,000 East Pakistani troops, and 40,000 troops were sent at the initial stage of the war. The density of troops was the same all over West and East Pakistan, which sounds about right. The desertions of the East Pakistanis required another 20,000 to arrive to make up for the numbers, and 30,000 more arrived. Troops wise the soldiers of Pakistan were pretty evenly spread out.

**dabrownguy** · 10 Sep 05, 08:41

The Bengalis say they are were being terrorized. Pictures proved this. The Pakistani word won't be good enough to change the view that has been made already.

**Ray** · 10 Sep 05, 11:15

My dear Hongkong,

Alright, follow it through. West wing Pakistan = 6 times size of East Wing Pakistan. West Wing of Pakistan needs 6 times as many soldiers as east wing to defend it.

1. If defence of a country went by population, then I presume China would have conquered the world.

2. If the defence of a country was dependent only on size, then I am afraid Pakistan would have been swamped long back.

Do bone up how wars are conceived, planned and fought.

A little learning is a dangerous thing, but a lot of ignorance is just as bad. Your Ignorance in military matters does cramp discusssion. Why assume that in military matters you are wise, when actually you are otherwise!

Further, in context with your use of the word "pedantic" one is lead to believe that the addage that 'greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about' is proved.

Pedantic point again. East and West Bengalis will be classed as Bengalis to some and not to others.

Generically, true.

However, since you claim to be cat's whiskers on the subject with the help of your friend Samila Bose this statement does indicate the falsehood intrinsically cranked in to reject the truth. Falsehood is invariably the child of fear in one form or another.

If you wish to discuss a subject, then bone up on it.The essence of knowledge is, having it, to apply it; not having it, to confess your ignorance.

I am constrained to indicate that a discussion is but an exchange of knowledge. an false argument for the heck of it is but a display of arrogant ignorance."

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

Bengalis being the same is like stating that Bush is Blair! As a Pakistani or of Pakistani origin, it is ludicrous that you do not understand the difference in culture and other aspects between a West Bengali and a East Bengali! It also is a clear indication why the East Paksitanis (East Bengalis) thought Paskistan was a huge joke since they (West P) didn't even know they (East P) exist or what they were!

I do hope you know the difference between a Pathan and a West Punjabi or a Baloch or a Mohajir. Learn abut your country and be sensitive to these issues before you find Pakistan going the Bangaldesh way!

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 10 Sep 05, 16:28

Originally Posted by Ray

My dear Hongkong,

1. If defence of a country went by population, then I presume China would have conquered the world.

2. If the defence of a country was dependent only on size, then I am afraid Pakistan would have been swamped long back.

Do bone up how wars are conceived, planned and fought.

A little learning is a dangerous thing, but a lot of ignorance is just as bad. Your Ignorance in military matters does cramp discusssion. Why assume that in military matters you are wise, when actually you are otherwise!

Further, in context with your use of the word "pedantic" one is lead to believe that the addage that 'greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about' is proved.

Generically, true.

However, since you claim to be cat's whiskers on the subject with the help of your friend Samila Bose this statement does indicate the falsehood intrinsically cranked in to reject the truth. Falsehood is invariably the child of fear in one form or another.

If you wish to discuss a subject, then bone up on it.The essence of knowledge is, having it, to apply it; not having it, to confess your ignorance.

I am constrained to indicate that a discussion is but an exchange of knowledge. an false argument for the heck of it is but a display of arrogant ignorance."

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

Bengalis being the same is like stating that Bush is Blair! As a Pakistani or of Pakistani origin, it is ludicrous that you do not understand the difference in culture and other aspects between a West Bengali and a East Bengali! It also is a clear indication why the East Paksitanis (East Bengalis) thought Paskistan was a huge joke since they (West P) didn't even know they (East P) exist or what they were!

I do hope you know the difference between a Pathan and a West Punjabi or a Baloch or a Mohajir. Learn abut your country and be sensitive to these issues before you find Pakistan going the Bangaldesh way!

Yes, you're of course right ray. But if West Pakistan had sent over too many troops to East Pakistan then West Pakistan would have been vulnerable.

You say that if it were just troops numbers that kept invaders out then Pakistan would have been swamped a long time ago. Well, Kuwait could be overrun anytime by most of the surrounding countries. Why isnt it?

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 10 Sep 05, 17:16

Originally Posted by dabrownguy

The Bengalis say they are were being terrorized. Pictures proved this. The Pakistani word won't be good enough to change the view that has been made already.

Noone is really that too bothered what the other person thinks. There's a lack of evidence so people will think whatever they want to. The pictures, though, dont prove much. In 1971 there were a group of the Bengali population known as Biharis. These were classed as "Urdu speakers" and also as non-Bengalis, since they'd moved over from India during partition in 1947. This group sided with West Pakistan during 1971 and led to civilian on civilian killings, nothing to do with the West Pakistan Army who were busy fighting the Mukti Bahini while hopelessly under equipped and understaffed.

Apart from sporadic incidents of violence in Dhaka, there was arson,
looting and attacks by Bengali mobs on non-Bengali people and property in
many parts of the province, some with casualties. The White Paper
published by the Pakistan government in August 1971 lists such incidents,
of which the worst loss of life appears to have occurred in Khulna and
Chittagong in the first week of March. That "the government's writ had
ceased to function in most parts of the province" and that there were
attacks upon non-Bengalis by Bengalis on the rampage, is acknowledged by
critics of the government too.[6]

Most of these attacks were on civilians and commercial properties, but
some were directly on the army, which remained curiously unresponsive
under orders. Mostly the army suffered from the refusal of Bengalis to
sell them food and fuel, being jeered and spat at, and the widespread
disregard of curfew orders, but some encounters were more deadly. "The
murder of army personnel, caught in ones and twos, became an everyday
occurrence," writes Maj. Gen. H. A. Qureishi, "In our area we lost Lt.
Abbas of 29 Cavalry. With an escort of Bengali soldiers, he had ventured
out of the unit lines to buy fresh vegetables for the troops. The escort
was "rushed" by the militants, the officer was killed, weapons were
'confiscated' and the Bengali members of the guard sent back unharmed."[7]
"It speaks volumes for the discipline of the West Pakistan army," wrote
Mascarenhas, "that its officers were able to keep the soldiers in check
during what was to them a nightmare of 25 days."[8]
http://www.drishtipat.org/1971/sarmila_paper.html

Indians like to quote Anthony Mascaranhas here, so his book said this of what the Bengali civilian population had done to the Biharis (non-Bengalis/Urdu speakers) to create bodies like the ones shown. His figures are way exagerrated though, who knows what else, but it's someone you like to quote as gospel.

Anthony Mascarenhas has described the attacks on the non-Bengalis in these terms:

'Thousands of families of unfortunate Muslims, many of them refugees from Bihar who chose Pakistan at the time of the partition riots in 1947, were mercilessly wiped out. Women were raped, or had their breasts torn out with specially fashioned knives. Children did not escape the horror: the lucky ones were killed with their parents; but many thousands of others must go through what life remains for them with eyes gouged out and limbs amputated. More than 20,000 bodies of non-Bengalis have been found in the main towns, such as Chittagong, Khulna and Jessore. The real toll, I was told everywhere in East Bengal, may have been as high as 100,000, for thousands of non-Bengalis have vanished without a trace. The Government of Pakistan has let the world know about that first horror. What it has suppressed is the second and worse horror which followed when its own army took over the killing. West Pakistan officials privately calculate that altogether both sides have killed 250,000 people.'4
http://www.globalwebpost.com/genocid..._march_dec.htm

**Ray** · 10 Sep 05, 19:10

In 1971 there were a group of the Bengali population known as Biharis.

How ridiculous can you be?!

Biharis are Bengalis?

Like Balochis are Punjabis!!!!

It indicates:

1 You are immensely clueless and you refuse to research and not expose your total ignorance.

Biharis are from Bihar! The Biharis of East Pakistan are Biharis who were Moslems and who moved to EAst Pakistan. They are culturally totally different from Bengalis apart from food habits and traditions! Heaven help us! This discussion is getting really like a primary school!

2. It also indicates the total indiffernce to even know about the Moslem Bengalis. Yet, being in the forefront to accuse others of waging war on Pakistan, which in any case, if this was the attitude of total indifference to them, doesn't speak much of Pakistan and the Westerners of that country.

If this attitude continues, then surely Bangladesh will be the way the remainder Provinces go!

What arrogance to want to be a Nation, but not care to know a damn about the peoples who make that Nation!!!!

The White Paper published by the Pakistan government in August 1971 lists such incidents, of which the worst loss of life appears to have occurred in Khulna and
Chittagong in the first week of March.

Merely building up a canard to cover the rape and looting by the Pakistani Army and the Bihari razaakars!

**Ray** · 10 Sep 05, 19:13

for thousands of non-Bengalis have vanished without a trace

Quietly bolted to Paksitan since they were not repatriated as per the Agreement!

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 10 Sep 05, 20:31

Originally Posted by Ray

How ridiculous can you be?!

Biharis are Bengalis?

Like Balochis are Punjabis!!!!

It indicates:

1 You are immensely clueless and you refuse to research and not expose your total ignorance.

Biharis are from Bihar! The Biharis of East Pakistan are Biharis who were Moslems and who moved to EAst Pakistan. They are culturally totally different from Bengalis apart from food habits and traditions! Heaven help us! This discussion is getting really like a primary school!

2. It also indicates the total indiffernce to even know about the Moslem Bengalis. Yet, being in the forefront to accuse others of waging war on Pakistan, which in any case, if this was the attitude of total indifference to them, doesn't speak much of Pakistan and the Westerners of that country.

If this attitude continues, then surely Bangladesh will be the way the remainder Provinces go!

What arrogance to want to be a Nation, but not care to know a damn about the peoples who make that Nation!!!!

Merely building up a canard to cover the rape and looting by the Pakistani Army and the Bihari razaakars!

Look idiot. Read my other posts on other threads as well. I said there were two groups in the Bengali POPULATION. I class Biharis as non-Bengalis/Urdu speakers, like most people. That makes them non-Bengali, but living in Bangladesh!!

Yes, yes, you can go on about your fictitious dreaming of Pakistani Army raping Bengalis that has been shown to be pretty unlikely, as in here http://www.drishtipat.org/1971/sarmila_paper.html

but you dont like answering about the facts from neutral well reputed human rights groups of systematic rape and killings of Kashmiris by the Indian Army that's going on as we speak.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/women/docu...2569A500714D22

**Gabru47** · 10 Sep 05, 21:42

Why are you saying no rapes occured? Bose's report says that in the specific case studies she conducted, there was no evidence of rape. She even goes on to say that this can't be extended to represent the experience of all Bangladeshis in 1971. She admits that her paper shouldn't be taken as an authority on the matter of rapes commited in Bangladesh in 1971. What I would like to know is how many case studies she conducted. Also why was she invited to a university in the USA to write a paper which was to be released on the date that the USA government declassified documents that talked of it's involvment in the 1971 genocide.

**667medic** · 10 Sep 05, 21:49

Look idiot. Read my other posts on other threads as well. I said there were two groups in the Bengali POPULATION. I class Biharis as non-Bengalis/Urdu speakers, like most people. That makes them non-Bengali, but living in Bangladesh!!

Ray was an officer in the army and so is it too difficult for you give some respect even if he doesn't agree with your POV....

**Ray** · 10 Sep 05, 22:01

My good man Hongkong Charlie,

Do you really expect me to trace your meanderings, mumblings and amnesia infected posts all over WAB and that too where one post does not agree with another? Sir, Janus could not have done a better job than you!

If you were not posting for the sake of posting and instead had the intellectual courage to have a single thought process, one could have undertaken a befittling discussion.

However, you remain fickle as the wind and weasel mouthed to suit the flavour of the moment!

You call me an idiot and clueless. However, I shall not resort to your brilliance in slum and gutter snipe vocabulary. It is entirely your prorigative to show your upbringing. Now , who could deny you that? This is not Pakistan that I can banish you to Saudi Arabia or threaten to jail you if you should step within the confines I command.

I am delighted to learn that you class Biharis as non Bengalis and yet you do write in Post # 81:

The pictures, though, dont prove much. In 1971 there were a group of the Bengali population known as Biharis.

Indeed I am an idiot because I do not understand that:

1. A group of Bengalis are also Biharis. (My understanding, as is the understand of the educated world, is that Bengalis and Biharis are two different communities!)

2. That one can write that:

"In 1971 there were a group of the Bengali population known as Biharis.[/B]

and

then in the near next post state "I said there were two groups in the Bengali POPULATION. I class Biharis as non-Bengalis/Urdu speakers, like most people. That makes them non-Bengali, but living in Bangladesh!!"

Thus, here you state that there is a group of Bengalis who are known as Bihari and also that Biharis are non Bengalis!

In other words, the confusion of your thoughts and knowledge show and the deviousness wilyness is loud as an avalanche. Two groups of Bengalis and one of them is Bihari!!!!

Like, there are two groups of Punajbis and one of them is Balochi! You seem to have an overload of balderdash and tripe that you wish to jettison on us.

Obviously, with such confusion raging in your enlightened mind, Sam Bose is your icon of intelligence and knowledge.

You do prove the point that Two things are infinite: the universe and your stupidity and abject ignorance; and I'm not sure about the universe.

It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and say the opposite.

Go ahead, say something quite opposite to what you have been saying so far.

**Ray** · 10 Sep 05, 22:04

Medic,

Thanks.

I don't really want any favours and that too from those who cannot undertake a discussion without losing their cool and in the bargain posting totally wierd stuff that baffles and bewilders as to what education was imposed on them!

Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 10 Sep 05, 22:35

Originally Posted by Gabru47

Why are you saying no rapes occured? Bose's report says that in the specific case studies she conducted, there was no evidence of rape. She even goes on to say that this can't be extended to represent the experience of all Bangladeshis in 1971. She admits that her paper shouldn't be taken as an authority on the matter of rapes commited in Bangladesh in 1971. What I would like to know is how many case studies she conducted. Also why was she invited to a university in the USA to write a paper which was to be released on the date that the USA government declassified documents that talked of it's involvment in the 1971 genocide.

Duh, noone's saying no rapes occurred! You dont get the essence of the report. It's been done SYSTEMATICALLY. That's to say she's not taken a particular incident and said women were herded off into dark basements by Pakistani soldiers and raped 80 times a night like your feminist novelist Brownmiller says, but that she's taken a sample of people that is significant, asked them about a set of similar events, and compared them to previous testimony. For example, previously it was reported that killings had taken place and this was associated with a report of rape. However, in Bose's research she found that people who saw and witnessed killing did not now testify to seeing rape. This could be for a number of reasons including that it was fictitiously reported in the initial reports, as there were no medical facilitities at the time to carry out proper investigations of such crimes. However, to say there were no rapes is just ridiculous. Even in normal "peaceful" civilian societies rapes occur, and I would find it odd if rapes had not occurred at the time. The only thing I dont believe are the figures.

She has not extrapolated the figures, and wisely so, but she's said that the figures are significant. That means that her results from her case studies dont match up to what is reported - A bit like Archie Blood's letters and case in the US senate which he said later was actually....not quite true.

**~~Hongkongfuey~~** · 10 Sep 05, 22:36

Originally Posted by 667medic

Ray was an officer in the army and so is it too difficult for you give some respect even if he doesn't agree with your POV....

I dont care what he was. I dont share your backward mentality.

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