Thread: Worst battle to be in for a soldier?

Originally Posted by sparten

Yes I did. Will post as soon as I get a new scanner (the last one died in a power surge). I refuse to go digital, 35mm is a lot better!.

The main guide their was ex Greek army, he told us that

1) The main lesson of Thermopyle is not bravery great as that was, but smart use of the terrain.

2) How many the Persians were engaged at any given time? He says the best estimate he could make was about 8~10,000. So they were never really outnumbered when it came to the fighting.

Even less, my point about the geothermal activity was that it has widened the pass considerably. I can't find it but will continue to look for a geologists paper that stated that at the time the useable terrain was so narrow that only a very few hundred could come at them at a time.

Could you post it if you find it.

"
2) How many the Persians were engaged at any given time? He says the best estimate he could make was about 8~10,000. So they were never really outnumbered when it came to the fighting."

300 vs 8-10,000 is not out numbered?

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

"
2) How many the Persians were engaged at any given time? He says the best estimate he could make was about 8~10,000. So they were never really outnumbered when it came to the fighting."

300 vs 8-10,000 is not out numbered?

They were not the only ones there. 7000 in all.

Originally Posted by sparten

They were not the only ones there. 7000 in all.

Leonidas sent the rest of the Greeks home once the Persains had found the trail and gotten into the rear.

The final battle was fought over several(3 IIRC) days by the 300 spartans- alone.

At least, every historic account i've ever seen says so.

The Thebans and the Thespians stayed. IIRC, the entire remaining force numbered ~1000. The Thespians were also killed to the last man but the Thebans surrendered after the Spartens fell.

Thanx sir.

So, revised question: 8-10k vs 300 isn't outnumbered?

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Thanx sir.

So, revised question: 8-10k vs 300 isn't outnumbered?

It is. But its not 100,000.

The final battle was fought over several(3 IIRC) days by the 300 spartans- alone

The guy there said that the final battle (the Spartans and the rest) was only on the last day. Greek deaths were about 4000 total through the three days. Leondies sent everybody home after it was clear that the end was near. And the Persians finished the rest off mostly with arrows. And then The Immortals moved in and finished the Spartans off. Interestingly it seems the Immortals may not have been engaged until then.

The Persian accounts of the battle were supossed to exist in Alexandria Liabary.

All in all no one doubted the Spartans courage. Even Xeres when he had calmed down.

Originally Posted by sparten

It is. But its not 100,000.


The guy there said that the final battle (the Spartans and the rest) was only on the last day. Greek deaths were about 4000 total through the three days. Leondies sent everybody home after it was clear that the end was near. And the Persians finished the rest off mostly with arrows. And then The Immortals moved in and finished the Spartans off. Interestingly it seems the Immortals may not have been engaged until then.

The Persian accounts of the battle were supossed to exist in Alexandria Liabary.

All in all no one doubted the Spartans courage. Even Xeres when he had calmed down.

Hmm, i just saw yet another show on this the other day that had a completely different version of events.

Every version i've ever seen has the 300 spartans alonea(or nearly so) for the final couple days fighting surrounded(remember the persians came up the pass behind them as well). They were finally finished off with arrows because they killed so many of Xerxes army in HTH. Furious, Xerxes supposedly ordered them shot down.

"It is. But its not 100,000"

It's still 100k, it's just not 100k at once. And regardless, it is believed to have been a lot more than 100k anyway!

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Every version i've ever seen has the 300 spartans alonea(or nearly so) for the final couple days fighting surrounded(remember the persians came up the pass behind them as well). They were finally finished off with arrows because they killed so many of Xerxes army in HTH. Furious, Xerxes supposedly ordered them shot down.

I had the same opinion. The guy there said differently. Apparently almost alone ment a few thousand.
BTW arrows are more or less useless overthere. The position of the armies was such that they either overshot or missed. Until they closed in. Either way it was still the Immortals who finished them off.
Leondies got immortality, Xerxes got Esther. Fair result if you ask me.

Back to worse battles
Khalid Bin Walids dispatch from the Battle of Yarmouk, said that some archer just died due to the strain of firing shots after shots in the heat. Facing the Roman Legions right after an 18 day forced march through the desert, can't be good.

Originally Posted by parihaka

IIRC isn't the terrain much broader now than it was at the time due to the ongoing geothermal activity?

Silt from the Spercheius River has created a plain about 1-3 miles wide. In 480 BC, it was probably only about 14 yards across, and consisted of only a gravel track under the cliffs.

Originally Posted by Bulgaroctonus

Silt from the Spercheius River has created a plain about 1-3 miles wide. In 480 BC, it was probably only about 14 yards across, and consisted of only a gravel track under the cliffs.

In other words the Persians could only send a few hundred men at a time.

Interesting bit about the Immortals, they made short work of the remaining Spartans.
Of course the remaining were about ready to die of exhaustion anyway.

BTW I estimated it at about 1.5 KM.

Originally Posted by sparten

The guy there said that the final battle (the Spartans and the rest) was only on the last day. Greek deaths were about 4000 total through the three days. Leondies sent everybody home after it was clear that the end was near. And the Persians finished the rest off mostly with arrows. And then The Immortals moved in and finished the Spartans off.

Leonidas, realizing that further fighting would be futile, dismissed all Greek forces save the surviving Spartans and Thebans on August 11, both having pledged themselves to fight to the death. However, a contingent of about 600 Thespians, led by Demophilus, refused to leave with the other Greeks. Instead, they chose to stay in the sacrificial effort to delay the advance. The significance of the Thespians' refusal should not be passed over. The Spartans, brave as their sacrifice indubitably was, were professional soldiers, trained from birth to be ready to give their lives in combat as Spartan law dictated. Conversely, the Thespians were citizen-soldiers (Demophilus, for example, made his living as an architect) who elected to add whatever they could to the fight, rather than allow the Spartans to be annihilated alone. Though their bravery is often overlooked by history, it was most certainly not overlooked by the Spartans, who are said to have exchanged cloaks with the Thespians and promised to be allies for eternity [1].

The fighting was said to have been extremely brutal, even for hoplite combat. As their numbers diminished the Greeks retreated to a small hill in the narrowest part of the pass. The Thebans took this opportunity to surrender to the Persians[1]. After their spears broke, the Spartans and Thespians kept fighting with their xiphos short swords, and after those broke, they were said to have fought with their bare hands and teeth. Although the Greeks killed many Persians, including two of Xerxes' brothers, Leonidas was eventually killed, but rather than surrender the Spartans fought fanatically to defend his body. To avoid losing any more men the Persians killed the last of the Spartans with flights of arrows.

Originally Posted by sparten

Interestingly it seems the Immortals may not have been engaged until then.

The Immortals were used against the Spartans on the second day of battle. They failed to break through the Spartan line.

Notes:
1. Herodotus' account of the Battle of Thermopylae http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Herother.html

Originally Posted by sparten

I had the same opinion. The guy there said differently. Apparently almost alone ment a few thousand.
BTW arrows are more or less useless overthere. The position of the armies was such that they either overshot or missed. Until they closed in. Either way it was still the Immortals who finished them off.
Leondies got immortality, Xerxes got Esther. Fair result if you ask me.

Back to worse battles
Khalid Bin Walids dispatch from the Battle of Yarmouk, said that some archer just died due to the strain of firing shots after shots in the heat. Facing the Roman Legions right after an 18 day forced march through the desert, can't be good.

Hmm. Another oddity. I've always seen it reported that they were all finished off with arrows. That includes the show i saw the other day.

How very ambiguous.