Thread: Bush and Rumsfeld and all them Neocons should just God-damn Resign!

Originally Posted by Fonnicker

I really don't think Kerry would pull out of the war.

I don't either, but I can't be sure. He has said 6 months, and he has said 1 year, as well as his current position(s).

Originally Posted by Fonnicker

does he "peacefully" protest the war. That to me is the perfect American.

It's perfect to deal with the enemy in Paris, multiple times I believe? It's perfect to slander American troops and give a brutal enemy justification? It's perfect that he admits to committing attrocities and isn't investigated? All he served to do, was to continue politicization of the war. The military won that war more than once, the politicizers snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

Originally Posted by Fonnicker

Anti-war does not equate to anti-soldier.

He made anti-soldier statements. His voting record is anti-military, and anti-intelligence.

Originally Posted by Fonnicker

Why try to debunk his military record?

They do that to everyone in politics. If there's a question, I want to know about it.

Originally Posted by Fonnicker

Why attempt to trivialize his purple hearts?

If they are questionable, I would want to know.

Originally Posted by Fonnicker

Can President Bush say the same thing?

Technically yes. Bush's unit wasn't called to Vietnam, Kerry's was.

Originally Posted by Fonnicker

Why then would we assume that Kerry will be softer in the light of fighting terrorism?

By his statements, and his votes over the last 20 years.

Originally Posted by Julie

Since your posts with me are usually in the defensive, it is hard for me to even begin to perceive how you feel about anything in my arguments.

You seem to be up on speed in which ones are fact and which ones are fiction.

Since yours posts never state facts, or supported information, most of your replies are opinionated.

Ha! more outright lies! On the defensive? Given the fact that you stooped as low as to partake in dirrect personal attacks doesn't show that your are in the stronger position, in fact your in the weaker possition.

Originally Posted by Julie

I never have nothing more to argue with you than an opinion, or shooting in the dark as we say, which is comparable to a dance in a courtroom with an ambulance chaser.

Thats utter BS, Ive posted links numerous times, to which you've responded quite rarely unless its yet another personal attack. The ones you have no answers to counter you simply egnore.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

We cannot do Iraq. At least not now, not for another 2 years. We're exhausted. The last Haiti mission, we had to strip the schools. We had to bring our people home to retrain, to requalify. We had to bring our equipment home to fix, to repair, to put back into working order.

We've done more than our share. We're in Yugoslavia 6 years too long. We've over-committed to Afghanistan (and let's face it, we're doing a job the Americans are way too busy to do but needs to be done).

As much as the Americans want us in Iraq, we have to do alot of repairing of both men and machine before we could.

I was aware of that but thank you for pointing it out for the other posters. It never the less makes me feel no better knowing that we have worn out our Military to the point where it is anything but fully effective. Perhaps Martin will increase funding to the military, but I'm not holding my breath.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

This being all said, Parliment and not National Defence Headquarters make foreign policy. Parliment judged that without UN approval, we would not particiapate in Iraq. Rightly or wrongly, we obey Parliment.

And that is the way it should be....I had hoped the US would have done the same.

Originally Posted by smilingassassin

Ha! more outright lies! On the defensive? Given the fact that you stooped as low as to partake in dirrect personal attacks doesn't show that your are in the stronger position, in fact your in the weaker possition

. I have admitted to my weaknesses in this thread, have you? Moreover, my weaknesses are the reasons for my arguments. Prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by smilingassassin

Thats utter BS, Ive posted links numerous times, to which you've responded quite rarely unless its yet another personal attack. The ones you have no answers to counter you simply egnore.

.

There is no need to respond to a legitimately supported argument, unless there is something to counter it with.

Originally Posted by Julie

And that is the way it should be....I had hoped the US would have done the same.

Do you mean with UN approval? On that, I completely disagree and see this as a failure of leadership by my Parliment.

If it is the right war to fight with UN approval, then why is it the wrong war to fight without it? The facts leading to war did not change.

Man our country is fast becoming a cheese pumping nation that you feel embarrassed about from day to day now! ust yesterday I was at the Wood fild mall, and walked up to the Marine reqruitment booth in the middle of the promenade! There were a couple of totally brainwashed 20 year old programmable "robots" manning it, and a throng of anti-war ppl heckling them! It was a god-damn disgrace!

it was funny to watch them desperately trying to talk to mexican and Hispanic guys walkin around! If it wasn't them it was some God-damn 2 cent illegal Pollock or Ukrainian! And I swear to God one of the two "marines' asked a couple of Pollocks if they had green cards, and I heard him saying that:

" He can help them become naturalized "! God-damn talk about desperation! A buddy of mine told us all that these new 2 cent eastern European 'Conscripts' ( Who can barely speak English ) are eventually sent to iraq and handed the task of driving a truck in the resupply of bases!

Recruitment is way down, and our military has totally lowered its standards! A lot of our seniors are now saying hat this is 100% reminiscent of the Vietnam days of the early 70's!

Iraq is becomin a meat grinder!

swallowing men and material!


Fresh troops arrive in Iraq ahead of assault

Iraqi PM says plans for Fallujah offensive in final phaseMSNBC News Services
Updated: 5:24 a.m. ET Nov. 1, 2004BAGHDAD, Iraq - A brigade of fresh American troops arriving in Baghdad will push the total U.S. military presence in Iraq to around 142,000, the highest level since the summer of 2003, as planners prepare for an expected assault on insurgent hotspots ahead of Iraqi elections.

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Army units slated to depart were being held back until after the January elections.

Meanwhile, gunmen on Monday killed the deputy governor of Baghdad, Iraqi officials said.

Hatim Kamil died when gunmen opened fire on his car in the southern Doura neighborhood, Interior Ministry spokesman Col. Adnan Abdul-Rahman said. Two of his bodyguards were also wounded, Abdul-Rahman said.

At Camp Victory North, the sprawling headquarters of the Army’s 1st Cavalry Division, the mess hall and housing trailers were brimming to capacity with the arrival of the 3,700-member Louisiana-based 256th Enhanced Separate Brigade, a National Guard unit that has been rolling into the Iraqi capital the past few days.

The arrival of the 256th was supposed to have been timed with the departure of the 1st Cavalry’s 2nd Brigade, which was scheduled to prepare to return to Fort Hood, Texas, in November. But the Pentagon delayed the 2nd Brigade’s departure by two months, military officials said.

Iraq’s impending elections and planned offensives in Iraq’s western Anbar province were expected to soak up much of the extra U.S. combat power.

Preparations for Fallujah assault in 'final phase'
Iraq’s interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, warned on Sunday that efforts to peacefully resolve the standoff in Fallujah have entered their “final phase” and that his patience is running short.

In a speech that seemed aimed at preparing the Iraqi public for an onslaught, Allawi warned of civilian casualties, saying that if he orders an assault, it would be with a “heavy heart,” because “there will be some loss of innocent lives.”

“But I owe, owe it to the Iraqi people to defend them from the violence and the terrorists and insurgents,” he said.


Anja Niedringhaus / AP
U.S. Marines of the 1st Division prepare for a patrol outside the insurgent-controlled city of Fallujah on Sunday.
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U.S. officials say the final order for an all-out attack on Fallujah will come from Allawi. Commanders have estimated that up to 5,000 Islamic militants, Saddam Hussein loyalists and common criminals are holed up there.

In a take on the Fallujah situation that appeared to contrast with Allawi’s, the country’s interim president said a military assault was the wrong solution, according to an interview published Monday.

President Ghazi al-Yawer told the Kuwaiti daily Al-Qabas that dialogue must continue and that insurgents “want nothing but a military solution, and the continuation of bleeding among Iraqis.”

“I absolutely disagree with those who believe a military attack is necessary,” al-Yawer was quoted as saying. “The way the coalition is managing the crisis is wrong. It is as if someone shot his horse in the head to kill a fly that landed on it. The fly flies away and the horse dies.”

U.S. Marine killed in blast
Elsewhere, one U.S. Marine was killed and four others wounded when a bomb exploded in the central Iraqi city of Ramadi, the military said Monday.

The Marines were hit on Sunday with an improvised explosive device, the U.S. command said. There were no other details available.

U.S. forces have been clashing with insurgents for weeks in Ramadi, an insurgent-heavy Sunni Muslim area about 70 miles west of Baghdad.




Rocket attack kills 15 Iraqis
In the city of Tikrit in Iraq’s Sunni Triangle, a rocket slammed into the Sunubar Hotel late Sunday, killing 15 Iraqis and wounding eight others, hospital officials said. The target may have been an American position that was targeted by a second rocket. U.S. officials said there were no American casualties.

The newly arriving troops leave Maj. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, commander of the 1st Cavalry, in charge of eight Army brigades, or more than 32,000 soldiers.

The five elemental brigades of Chiarelli’s division were expected to begin the process of pulling out of Iraq in late January, after the return of the Army’s Georgia-based 3rd Infantry Division, which arrives for its second tour in Iraq. The 3rd Infantry led the charge to Baghdad and captured the city in April 2003.

Three brigades under Chiarelli’s command will stay behind in Iraq: the 256th, the Arkansas-based 39th Enhanced Separate Brigade and the 2nd Brigade of the Army’s 10th Mountain Division, based at Fort Drum, N.Y.

Also staying longer will be 3,000 soldiers of the Tikrit-based 1st Infantry Division headquarters. They previously were to have been replaced in January, before the elections, by incoming troops from the 42nd Infantry Division, New York National Guard.

Early next year, the Army’s III Corps will transfer control of overall war fighting duties in Iraq to the 18th Airborne Corps, based in Fort Bragg, N.C.

Insurgent network
Fallujah has become the nexus of an insurgent network that has carried out numerous car-bombings and beheadings of foreign hostages since the Bush administration ordered Marines to halt an offensive against the city in April.

Fallujah is believed to be the headquarters of Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who announced his allegiance to al-Qaida this month. Al-Zarqawi’s group is believed responsible for numerous beheadings of foreign hostages, including Japanese backpacker Shosei Koda, whose body was found Saturday night in Baghdad wrapped in an American flag.

“The terrorists and insurgents continue to use Fallujah and the Fallujah people as a shield for their murderous acts,” Allawi said. “Some of the most incredible crimes have been committed in Fallujah and out of Fallujah by these terrorists.”

He said he “cannot stand back and allow such attacks to continue.”

An offensive against Sunni strongholds would present a major challenge to Allawi, a secular Shiite Muslim politician who cultivated links to the CIA and the U.S. State Department during his years in exile in London during Saddam’s regime.

RELATED LINK
Click here for MSNBC.com's Iraq section




In April, U.S. Marines launched a major assault on Fallujah after the slaying of four American security contractors, whose burned and mutilated bodies were dragged through the streets and hung from a bridge over the Euphrates River.

However, the assault unleashed a firestorm of criticism among Iraqis, including key members of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council, who complained of hundreds of civilian casualties. The Marines lifted the siege after three weeks and handed security over to a brigade of Fallujah residents under the command of Saddam’s former officers.

The brigade melted away and the city fell under the control of hardline Sunni clerics and their mujahedeen fighters.

American officers estimate up to 5,000 Islamic militants, Saddam loyalists and common criminals are holed up in Fallujah. Thousands more operate in other cities of the Sunni Triangle and in Baghdad.

In preparation for an offensive, hundreds of British troops have moved into an area south of Baghdad to free up American forces for operations west of Baghdad. British press reports said four mortar shells landed early Sunday at a British camp south of Fallujah. Two rockets also exploded at the perimeter of the airport in the southern city of Basra where the British contingent has its headquarters.

There were no casualties or serious damage in either attack, British media reports said.

Japanese hostage confirmed killed
Also, early Sunday, the Japanese government confirmed that the decapitated body of a young Asian male — found wrapped in an American flag and dumped in an insurgent-infested neighborhood of Baghdad — was that of Japanese hostage Shosei Koda, 24, said Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura.

Koda’s abduction was claimed by the al-Qaida in Iraq group led by al-Zarqawi.

People who can't even god-damn speak English! are un-educated and fresh off the god-damn cheese boat, are now our military representatives overseas! it seems to be getting better by the day as even the (lower caste) "underclasses" comprising of inner city baastards are now refusing to go due to the ongoing carnage! I hope Kerry shuts down this disgraceful practice of conscripting our illegal minorities on the premise of a now worthless green card in a god-damn failed economy!


Foreigners as cannon fodder?

Nearly 40,000 of America's frontline soldiers are not Americans

by James Gooder, Al-Jazeera Sept. 1, 2003

Many of the troops on duty in Iraq do not count English as their first language and would prefer to take orders in their native tongue ... usually Spanish.

The revelation has prompted British MP George Galloway, one of the fiercest critics of the invasion of Iraq, to accuse the US of using its "green card" troops as cannon fodder.

Galloway went on to attack the US policy of putting its poor minorities and non-citizens in the frontline of its foreign wars.

In an exclusive interview he told Aljazeera.net that it was part of a long US tradition of using its underclass as cannon fodder.

The statistics, buried by White House spin doctors, reveal that a significant minority of troops fighting under the US banner are not in fact US citizens but residents hoping to speed up their citizenship.

Galloway said that this was typical of a government used to having the marginalised fight its battles.

"Nothing has changed since that last failed attempt to invade and determine the future of another country, Vietnam," he told Aljazeera.net from his holiday villa in Portugal.

"The proportion of blacks in the army was 40%, while in the US population the number of blacks was a quarter of that," he said

"Of course the underclass has now become increasingly more Hispanic than black."

This explains why a disproportionate number of the so-called US casualties in the invasion and occupation of Iraq have borne Latino names.

Galloway says that on a weekly Atlanta radio show in which he participates, the callers have repeatedly claimed that Blacks and Hispanics are the fodder army recruiters are after.

... But the percentage of non-citizens in the US Army is low — only 4.2%

VisaLaw Jan 15, 1999

A recent article by Dave Moniz in the Christian Science Monitor addresses the current discussion over the role of immigrants serving in the U.S. military. According to the Navy Times, legal resident non-citizens accounted for 7,500 new recruits to all the armed forces in 1997. In the Army alone, non-citizens recruits have risen from 2,200 in 1995 to 3,100 in 1998. Despite the numbers, the percentage of non-citizens in the Army is low, only 4.2%.

While non-citizen recruits have helped recent recruiting slumps, many are concerned. One current reason for the concern was the revelation in December that that an Egyptian national and former Army supply sergeant was charged with assisting Osama bin Laden, the Saudi national implicated in the U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. This is highly unusual, and military officials are quick to point out that immigrants are not placed in sensitive positions such as intelligence or Special Forces.

Lyle Hendrick, a former Special Forces officer, says immigrants "sometimes make better soldiers than U.S. teenagers," but also fears that increasing percentages of immigrants in the Army grows "further and further away from the image of the American public." Most historians however, do not believe immigrants would be reluctant to fight for America, citing the example of Japanese-Americans who fought for the U.S. in World War II.



Published by
VisaLaw

The Pentagon says that there are 37,401 non-US citizens on active duty, and that joining up has a special incentive for them — an American passport.

"The military services have processes and programmes in place to help service members expedite their citizenship," says a US Department of Defence spokesperson.

"The estimated time for the application is about six months."

Citizenship has been especially hard to come by due to the draconian immigration rules imposed by the US Department of Homeland Security since the 11 September 2001 attacks.

It can take several years to gain citizenship, for those lucky enough to get it. Signing up to the army can speed this up, provided the GI comes home alive.

Other incentives under the Montgomery GI Bill include the promises of a college fund of up to $50,000, post service employment and training.

But activist Carlos Mendes of the Latinos Against the War in Iraq coalition says that many soldiers have told him that these promises often fail to materialise.

The US military relies on volunteers, the Pentagon argues, and there is no official draft, therefore no pressure on anyone to sign up.

Yet in a country where further education is prohibitively expensive, and medical care privatised, these incentives deliberately target America's poor minorities, as well as those desperate for citizenship, freeing the sons and daughters of those with money and influence from service.

"The people who made the decisions never sent their sons to get hot, bloody and dirty on the battlefield," he said.

Even when there was a draft, the decision-makers stayed out of trouble. "The white sons of the rulers of America, including a certain George W Bush, have always found ways around the draft, in his case through his bogus service in the air auxiliary, while Dick Cheney took one course after another at university," he said.

Galloway, the Glasgow Kelvin MP who has consistently criticised US and British policy on Iraq, famously called Bush and Blair "wolves" over their war-like rhetoric leading up to the invasion.

He opposed UN sanctions imposed after the last Gulf War complaining that they inflicted huge suffering on ordinary Iraqis.

Mr Galloway has visited Iraq on numerous occasions and met the country's former president and major figures in the Baathist government.

But he was also a vigorous campaigner during the Thatcher years, picketing the Iraqi embassy in London, when the Conservative government supplied arms to Saddam Hussein.


The Pentagon says that there are 37,401 non-US citizens on active duty, and that joining up has a special incentive for them — an American passport.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Do you mean with UN approval? On that, I completely disagree and see this as a failure of leadership by my Parliment.

If it is the right war to fight with UN approval, then why is it the wrong war to fight without it? The facts leading to war did not change.

Do forgive me for not agreeing with your views of the decision of a war invasion, since I highly respect your views, and you have the experience to make those calls. However, I do not agree with a unilateral war, nor the time given for proper planning with any members of the international community. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the corrupt and bias decision making of the UN, however, the things I have seen unfold with this "rush job" is not to my liking at all.

This very moment, I would have more faith in you, yourself, to decide and plan an invasion concerning Iraq, than the administration of Bush, or probably Kerry.

lulldapull -- is this a form of "out-sourcing," or better yet, "earning your citizenship?" And, the last time I heard reported, there was only one known sibling of a US Government servant serving in Iraq. The Pot and the Kettle are sure looking the same colors to me...eh?

Originally Posted by Julie

Do forgive me for not agreeing with your views of the decision of a war invasion, since I highly respect your views, and you have the experience to make those calls. However, I do not agree with a unilateral war, nor the time given for proper planning with any members of the international community. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the corrupt and bias decision making of the UN, however, the things I have seen unfold with this "rush job" is not to my liking at all.

I'm afraid that there is a disconnect here. Allow me to expand on my explaination. Ottawa ordered the Department of National Defence to start planning for a possible action in Iraq. We sent a staff to CENTCOM to start seeing where, how, and when we could participate.

Our then PM Jean Chretien started to question POTUS Bush's evidence. The result was that we were no longer invited to several CENTCOM meetings, not having a need-to-know.

Chretien sent our Minister of National Defence John McCallum going on hands and knees to SECDEF Rumsfeld to beg to allow us back into those meetings. We've got approval from the Prime Minister's Office to offer up a reduced Brigade Group (4000 people) for action in Iraq.

Failing UN approval, we withdrew from Iraq and committed to the ISAF in Afghanistan instead which was a surprise to everyone, including the Chief of Land Staff ... but not apparently, SECDEF Rumsfeld (I've got the feeling that this was the SECDEF demanded we do Afghanistan if we don't do Iraq).

Thus, from the Canadian Forces' PoV, we've gone through all this simply because we had thought everyone had decided the Iraq action was the right one, including our political masters. So, it was a shock to us when this 180 degree came about.

Every government has the duty to decide what is best for its country, not the UN. We've gone through all this planning and preparation because we had thought our government had done the soul searching before sending us into Harm's Way (looking back, I should have known better. A Government doing soul searching?). To us, it was a coward's way out of not standing up and taking a stand. Iraq was either right or wrong on its own merits, not because the UN say so.

Originally Posted by Julie

This very moment, I would have more faith in you, yourself, to decide and plan an invasion concerning Iraq, than the administration of Bush, or probably Kerry.

You give me far too much credit. I was at most a Bde lvl officer (5-6000 men). If you think right now is bad, you don't want to see how bad I can screw things up simply because I am not qualified at that level.

This being said, I have to say that the lack of leadership is most appalling to me. Neither candidate has captured the heart and soul of the American people. It makes me question that if neither candidate can lead the American people to a resounding election victory, then why would anyone expect either to lead the world governments?

Originally Posted by Julie

lulldapull -- is this a form of "out-sourcing," or better yet, "earning your citizenship?" And, the last time I heard reported, there was only one known sibling of a US Government servant serving in Iraq. The Pot and the Kettle are sure looking the same colors to me...eh?

Well I tell you you know the funny thing is that when this cheez pumpin war started in afghanistan every God-damn greeser or eastern European conscript picked up his hot dog and the 40 oz and headed for the nearest recruitment centre! Then an year later when these terrorists started gettin together;

(thanks to our ass-hole of a president and his myopic vision of the world)

you couldn't find a career criminal wantin to go over there even for a communal of his God-damn sentence!

When I was pumping cheese as a security guard for about 6 months ( Due to the complete and absolute evaporation of engineering jobs, here in the Chicago area ) i have personally met many an Iraqi "Christian" A-raanb, one of them neanderthal looking ones who conveniently call themselves 'Assyrian', and vehemently deny that they ain't A-raanb, and as soon as you turn around they start chattng in that disgusting language!

And after hearing stories from these Assyrian monkeys about the horrible decapitations that many of their expatriots have suffered after going back to their pathetic country ( under the premise that they'd get legalised if they did so in helping out a beleagured U.S. military)

I swear to God Julie the U.S. govt. is offering $100,000 tax free to any cheese pumper, and a chance to straighten out is/ her "turd-world" status ! Provided you are willing to drive a truck in iraq! Right now!

P.S. If you speak A-raanb or look like one, hell then thats an added bonus!

Originally Posted by lulldapull

i have personally met many an Iraqi "Christian" A-raanb, one of them neanderthal looking ones who conveniently call themselves 'Assyrian', and vehemently deny that they ain't A-raanb, and as soon as you turn around they start chattng in that disgusting language!

Originally Posted by lulldapull

after hearing stories from these Assyrian monkeys

Originally Posted by lulldapull

If it wasn't them it was some God-damn 2 cent illegal Pollock or Ukrainian!

Originally Posted by lulldapull

God one of the two "marines' asked a couple of Pollocks if they had green cards

Originally Posted by lulldapull

bush the bible faagot will be thrown out

whats a guy gotta do to get thrown out of this site anyway?