Thread: God damned LOOTERS.

NEW ORLEANS - New Orleans descended into anarchy Thursday as corpses lay abandoned in street medians, fights and fires broke out, cops turned in their badges and the governor declared war on looters who have made the city a menacing landscape of disorder and fear.

"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," Gov. Kathleen Blanco said of 300 National Guard troops who landed in New Orleans fresh from duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will." ...

...Col. Henry Whitehorn, chief of the Louisiana State Police, said he heard of numerous instances of New Orleans police officers — many of whom from flooded areas — turning in their badges.

"They indicated that they had lost everything and didn't feel that it was worth them going back to take fire from looters and losing their lives," Whitehorn said. ...

...A military helicopter tried to land at the convention center several times to drop off food and water. But the rushing crowd forced the choppers to back off. Troopers then tossed the supplies to the crowd from 10 feet off the ground and flew away. ...

... Tourist Debbie Durso of Washington, Mich., said she asked a police officer for assistance and his response was, "'Go to hell — it's every man for himself.'" ...

... After a traffic jam kept buses from arriving for nearly four hours, a near-riot broke out in the scramble to get on the buses that finally did show up, with a group of refugees breaking through a line of heavily armed National Guardsmen. ...

... Donald Dudley, a 55-year-old New Orleans seafood merchant, complained that when he and other hungry refugees broke into the kitchen of the convention center and tried to prepare food, the National Guard chased them away.

"They pulled guns and told us we had to leave that kitchen or they would blow our damn brains out," he said. "We don't want their help. Give us some vehicles and we'll get ourselves out of here!"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hurricane...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl


I don't know how they are ever going to regain control there. It is beyond being completely out of control.

I hope that sanity is restorted in New Orleans and hope that Fats Dominos is found alive.

It's a real shame that this is happening and it's making all Americans look like assholes. The world is watching and asking themselves why should they be the world police when their own people act worse than animals. I know better than that, but the rest of the world sure as hell doesn't. This really is a shame and I hope order is restored soon. It's always the few who wreck it for everyone else.

Not to seem like I'm not seriously freaked out by the suffering of the people trapped on the gulf, but I can't help but wonder what this means for the rest of the world. I'd hate to think how much this is going to cost the US government, which is already facing a massive deficit (Correct me if I'm wrong). Oil prices were already high to begin with, so this is only going to make a bad situation worse, and I read that Alan Greenspan said there was a 75% chance that the US dollar would crash within 5 years, so what are the odds this could derail the US, and therefor the Global economy? Also the apparently worsening sectarian situation in Iraq may mean the US will have to increase, not decrease its troop numbers there, so an expensive war might become a whole lot pricier.

Originally Posted by dalem

1) Yes, they are that stupid.

2) I think you will find that all the depravity is being committed by the urban poor - a group which has, for the last couple of generations, been raised to believe that they "deserve" things from the nanny state. Their morality is clearly much less sound than ours.

-dale

At the risk of being banned from this forum, **** YOU. First of all, the USA is in no way a nanny state. People in the US have little access to healthcare unless they pay for it. Most state schools are a joke. The welfare system involves busing people hours away from their homes, leaving their children unsupervised because of inadaquate childcare, to work mimimum wage. Now you can try to use whatever twisted justifications you want for your blatant social predjudice, which is no doubt fed by your desire to avoid any social responsibility, but everyone with half a sense of perspective will see you for the selfish bigot bereft of charity and compassion that you are. You want to live in a society where this sort of thing doesn't happen? TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY AND HELP PEOPLE OUT, INSTEAD OF SPURNING THEM FOR BEING BORN INTO THE WRONG FAMILIES. Bah, you won't listen to me, or anyone else who cares about the common good anyway.

Originally Posted by -{SpoonmaN}-

At the risk of being banned from this forum, **** YOU. First of all, the USA is in no way a nanny state. People in the US have little access to healthcare unless they pay for it. Most state schools are a joke. The welfare system involves busing people hours away from their homes, leaving their children unsupervised because of inadaquate childcare, to work mimimum wage. Now you can try to use whatever twisted justifications you want for your blatant social predjudice, which is no doubt fed by your desire to avoid any social responsibility, but everyone with half a sense of perspective will see you for the selfish bigot bereft of charity and compassion that you are. You want to live in a society where this sort of thing doesn't happen? TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY AND HELP PEOPLE OUT, INSTEAD OF SPURNING THEM FOR BEING BORN INTO THE WRONG FAMILIES. Bah, you won't listen to me, or anyone else who cares about the common good anyway.

Give me a bloody break aside from healthcare in the US wtf are you talking about? Any school is still schooling and it's what you make of it. You want to get ahead work for it. It's not my responsiblity to take care of someone elses kids because they can't afford them. I'm sorry but at this time in my life I can't afford a child so I discovered a condom and my girlfriend the pill. If I was stupid too bad for me.

Don't want to work minumum wage? Fine, get a better job. It's not my problem if someone refuses to work hard. No education? No problem, get into construction. Even the clean up guy gets more than minimum wage and after awhile they will train you to do a better job and earn more. Not to mention that at such a basic level you should be a teenager and not have a kid and if you do have a child maybe you should have thought twice before you had sex with no precautions taken. Oh and as a teenager you can get the pill for free if you bother looking.

Let's say that you are weak or something and can't do construction. If you can turn a computer on you can get a basic office job. There are also free programs for adults to teach you, all you have to do is show up.

The way I see it if your life is screwed up for the vast majority of cases the only place you should look for blame is the mirror.

My social responsibility is to be a well adjusted person who yes looks out for others as well as myself. This does not require me to be a baby sitter. I am so sick of people knocking out more kids to get bigger benifit cheques. I've seen this crap happen in Canada, the US and now get to see it here in the UK. Why should I work hard to put a roof over someone elses head who wont even work for themselves? Not my problem. As far as I'm concerned most welfare cases should be cut off. Like I said the program should be there as **** happens but please this means training and assistance at first not an endless supply of handouts.

Oh and as I was also one born into the wrong family and live in a **** hole in North London I say f.u.c.k you at least I pay my own way which is one hell of a lot more than I can say for a lot of my neighbors.

This reminds me of Africa a bit. I've heard so many stories of soldiers coming to help and when they run out of handouts rocks and insults are thrown. These handouts aren't appreciated they are expected. I blame people like you for this. Instead of teaching and helping you hand out with no regard of the conseciences and have cause us a world of grief. Bleeding heard Liberal bastards like you should be shot.

Sorry to the mods for the personal attack on Spoonfeedeveryone but he really pissed me off.

Oh Christ another Australian I didn't even notice. If it wasn't for my girlfriend and a few of my Aussie mates I swear I'd think that country was full of nimrods. I've never met a group with such a concentration of people with their heads surgically implanted in their ass.

Spoonman have you even left Melbourn at all? Take a look at the world around you sometime and wake the hell up.

Oh and from another observation Aussies are accidently the most racist group of people I've met and before even one of you say a word get "abbo" and "wog" out of your vocabulary. I literaly had to wack my girlfriend in the leg every time she said abbo.

Abbo = a mean name for an aboriginal
Call an aboriginal an abbo to their face, I dare you Spoony, do the world a favour.

From another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalem
There is no Right or Wrong under martial law, Ray, there is only Order or Chaos. In a perfect world the police would have had some leadership, planning, and resources with which to direct sanctioned apportioning of critical items like food and medicines.

But based on the speed of the flooding and the people that stayed behind, well... You get what you see now.

But even if I were thirsty and hungry I assure you I would not be ambushing the police or carjacking people, sir.

-dale

I wouldn't have replied, but the condescending tone prompts a reply.

First of all, sir, I have personally been involved in greater natural calamities than the one in New Orleans e.g. the Latur earthquake. the Gujerat Earthquake and the cyclone in Andhra Pradesh!

I do have experience of such unfortunate events and I am well aware of how to handle the issues.

First thing one should possess in such calamities is CALM. Let emotions not take control or else it will be a greater catastrophe!

The US is the most perfect of the imperfect world.

If you feel that the current situation faced by the US is of the "imperfect world", I wonder what world those countries. which face calamities of a greater degree than what is being experienced in the US, belong to!

Yet, the third world has always been at the wrong end of the stick for the international media condemning and criticising everything that is done for reasons that possibly are the fallout of the colonial baggage, to put it politely.

One does not declare martial law. Martial Law has a different connotation. It means, to put it simply, that the Civil Administration has been sent home and governance (including law and order) has been totally taken over by the Military. It also means that the Law of the Land is no longer in vogue!

In India and in the UK, in such situation, martial law is not invoked. What is invoked is "Aid to Civil Authority". In that the Civil Administration functions and the military assists where the Civil administration find itself lacking, including law and order. The rationale is that the Civil Administration is better versed with the local matters, geography and local issues than the military or national guard who come from all over the country or state!

In the case of looting and violence, the military is called in at the specific locality where such untowards incidents are occuring and is effective till the time the situation is brought under control. If need be, thereafter a curfew is imposed. It mus tbe remembered that matters must be addressed locally and the whole city not put to discomfort for the fault of some!

I would be bold to state that because we have faced many natural calamities, we are better versed and find the total chaos of New Orleans extraordinary and the administration there totally inept and inefficient.

However, I don't stand on judgement because this type of a calamity is possibly the first of its magnitude that has been faced by the US; hence the problems.

I sure hope that lessons are learnt and the rectifications thought out are passed nationwide so that the next time, the administration is better equipped to handle the calamity.

Lastly, stay calm. Getting agitated or excited helps none.

Sacking people?

Do it later once things are under control. Right now, I am sure the men who have failed are good men otherwise and who have some shame in their bones. They are embarrassed at their ineptness. To make amends, they will go the extra mile. If one sacks them halfway home, then the next man might think he is cats whiskers and go and make a bigger bloomer since it would be a new post for him and he may not be conversant with the intricacies of the job.

Food, water, electricity and medicines are VERY important. Iraq is an example where because of it not being there, or in abudance, terrorism has spread; and we talk of carjacking and looting.

It starts with food and medicine and then it snowballs to TVs and luxury goods!

Chris,

If they are attacking the police, it show the degree of total lack of understanding of the situation as it would unfold as also a total lack of knowledge of the bad hats (which all police station keep a record of of thier are of jurisdiction) and who should have been rounded off once the hurricane hit or just before that.

Very unfortunate.


lemontree
Senior Member

Join Date: 10-04-04
Location: India
Posts: 2,556

To add to what Brig.Ray sir has mentioned.
In such calamities it is the citizens who have to organise themselves and should not depend on the state authorities in the immediate aftermath.
- Those who have food need to share it.
- Those whose houses are ok should bring in their neighbours whose houses are damaged.
- Organise transport for evac as the govt will take time.
- Citizens need to direct traffic.
It is the citizens who need to hold up the city. The govt can do just that much as it has done.
Thats what we did in Bombay on the 26th July, till the govt could gather its wits and come in.
...and you cannot shoot those looters, only shoot the guys who shoot at resecuers.
__________________

Originally Posted by -{SpoonmaN}-

People in the US have little access to healthcare unless they pay for it.

I don't really see the issue here. I know that other countries provide health care for their residents, and it is sweet, but I don't think it should be the norm'. If I want a car, I have to pay for it and the insurance for it (which, at least in Illinois is mandatory). If I want a house, again I pay for that house and the insurance. If I want a kid, why should I not pay for that kid and the insurance?

In any case, there are multiple FREE clinics in every major city and a lot of suburbs. Hospitals (again at least in Illinois) do not turn people away for an inability to pay. I believe that is actually a state law here. They may not be the best of care, and you may have a longer wait, but it is accessible...and if you are on welfare or medicare - Medicaid. Again, not the best, but better than nothing.

Most state schools are a joke.

Originally Posted by Batman

Any school is still schooling and it's what you make of it.

Most public schools in major cities are completely inadequite. They have 30-40 kids per classroom, per teacher. There is no way that a teacher can even make an attempt at giving each kid special attention or even find the time to answer their basic questions. That being said, there are cases, few and far between, but it still happens, where kids pay attention, learn and benefit from that. The blame cannot be entirely shifted onto the school systems...Parents need to take the responsibility of making sure their children are learning and have the proper thought processes to make the most of whatever their situation.

For adults: help is available out there. People just have to get up, put the crack pipe down, and go get it. In college I used to tutor adults who were taking ESL classes or other basic learning classes such as computers. These were all free. You know who showed up? People that wanted to better themselves and give their kids a better living environment. They did not feel sorry for themselves, they did not expect anyone to take care of them, they did not want a free ride. These people had mostly gotten a horrible education and lived in poor areas and had, for most of their lives, accepted this. They had made many mistakes and finally accepted that and decided to take ownership of it. They realized that they needed help getting ahead and they put aside their ego and went to get that help. It is out there and if the city you live in does not offer it, go to where they do.

The welfare system involves busing people hours away from their homes, leaving their children unsupervised because of inadaquate childcare, to work mimimum wage.

Originally Posted by Batman

It's not my responsiblity to take care of someone elses kids because they can't afford them. ... There are also free programs for adults to teach you, all you have to do is show up.

Most people who are using the welfare system are in cities. They don't (normally) live in the country with limited work resources. There is a gas station on every corner, a McDonald's on every other, and the sporadic grocery store - all of which pay more than min wage. If a person is in the situation that they require welfare assistance, they should not be having children. If you cannot afford it - don't get it. There is ample FREE birth control available. I know that Chicago has MANY welfare housing projects with subsidized rent...they are not the best, in fact, they are actually the worst place to live. They are filled with people who think that their "job" is to whore themselves or deal drugs. Drug dealers, I guarantee, in these projects, between collecting welfare and their "side job", are making more than I am, and they pay no taxes. Not everyone on welfare is abusing it, but the majority, I believe is. As for child care, again, if you cannot afford it, don't have kids. Like Batman said, it is not everyone else's responsibility to care for our kids. Btw, there is also FREE childcare available for those on welfare.

Those that want to get out of the projects, go to a mortgage lender...there are SO MANY programs for 1st and 2nd time home buyers. It does not matter what your credit is either. There are programs that will "gift" you the down payment for a home (ameridream and nehemia to name two). There are others that will sell homes at extremely low rates so long as you qualify (# of kids, people living in the home, low salary, etc). People do not have to accept their situations that they are "born" into...situations get changed everyday.

TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY AND HELP PEOPLE OUT, INSTEAD OF SPURNING THEM FOR BEING BORN INTO THE WRONG FAMILIES.

People do not get "spurned" for being born into the wrong family. The get "spurned" for accepting it as good enough.

If someone does not like their situation, change it. If they sit around and wait for someone else to change it, all that is going to happen is that they are going to get good at waiting.




*And to those that have just reached a whole new level of doubt about my political standing - I am still a Democrat*

Hurricane-hit US seeks world aid


WASHINGTON, Sept 1: The United States, reeling from the death and destruction wrought by Hurricane Katrina, will accept any offers of aid from abroad, the White House said on Thursday.

“We are open to all offers of assistance from other nations, and I would expect we would take people up on offers of assistance when it’s necessary,” said spokesman Scott McClellan.

But asked whether this was a request for foreign aid, McClellan sharply replied: “No.”

US President George W. Bush has designated his father, former president George Bush, and his predecessor, former president Bill Clinton, to spearhead private fundraising efforts on behalf of Katrina’s victims as they did for Asian countries battered by last year’s tsunami.

“This is similar to the effort they led with the tsunami relief, where they helped to raise more than one billion in an unprecedented effort to help people in that region,” said McClellan.

ORLEANS MAYOR SENDS SOS: New Orleans’ mayor issued an urgent plea for relief of his flooded city on Thursday as gunshots and looting hampered the evacuation of desperate crowds trying to escape Hurricane Katrina’s destruction.

“This is a desperate SOS,” Mayor Ray Nagin said in a statement read by CNN. Some of the thousands of hungry, thirsty storm survivors outside the city’s convention centre chanted similar pleas.

“Right now we are out of resources at the convention centre and don’t anticipate enough buses. Currently the convention centre is unsanitary and unsafe and we are running out of supplies for 15,000 to 25,000 people,” Nagin said.

Congress was expected to cut short its summer break to pass emergency financial aid for hurricane victims, according to congressional aides who said an initial package could be around $10 billion.

Shell-shocked New Orleans officials tried to clamp down on looting in the historic jazz city reduced to a swampy ruin by Monday’s storm. Bodies floated in the streets, attackers armed with axes stripped hospitals of medicine and authorities said they could still only guess at how many people had died.

“We don’t have numbers. It could be in the hundreds, or the thousands,” US Sen. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana said of the statewide death toll. “I think it’s going to be shocking.”

Federal disaster declarations covered 90,000 square miles along the US Gulf Coast, an area roughly the size of Great Britain. As many as 400,000 people had been forced to leave their homes.

Violence broke out in pockets of New Orleans among the wandering crowds desperate to escape the flooded city and hellish 32 C temperatures.—AFP/Reuters

http://www.dawn.com/2005/09/02/top9.htm

The US has always helped all countries whenever they have had a natural disaster.

It is time that the world repaid.

I do hope they do even if it is not of the magnitude that the US or the EU helps.

If nothing else, the gesture would go a long way.

Thank you TopHatsLiberal I could not have said it better given my clouded state of mind after readin that post.

Man you really are not a very good Liberal.

"At the risk of being banned from this forum, **** YOU. First of all, the USA is in no way a nanny state. People in the US have little access to healthcare unless they pay for it. Most state schools are a joke. The welfare system involves busing people hours away from their homes, leaving their children unsupervised because of inadaquate childcare, to work mimimum wage. Now you can try to use whatever twisted justifications you want for your blatant social predjudice, which is no doubt fed by your desire to avoid any social responsibility, but everyone with half a sense of perspective will see you for the selfish bigot bereft of charity and compassion that you are. You want to live in a society where this sort of thing doesn't happen? TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY AND HELP PEOPLE OUT, INSTEAD OF SPURNING THEM FOR BEING BORN INTO THE WRONG FAMILIES. Bah, you won't listen to me, or anyone else who cares about the common good anyway."

He won't listen to you because, simply, you don't know what you're talking about.

"Most public schools in major cities are completely inadequite. They have 30-40 kids per classroom, per teacher. There is no way that a teacher can even make an attempt at giving each kid special attention or even find the time to answer their basic questions. That being said, there are cases, few and far between, but it still happens, where kids pay attention, learn and benefit from that."

I went to a big US inner city public school.

Do i strike anyone here as poorly educated?