Thread: Wow, I had no idea this was the Obama record

Recent times as in starting back to 1985? I guess colleges knew that someday Obama was going to be elected and planned accordingly. To blame Obama for this is just plain dishonest. Pell grants are the life's blood for people to go to college that are not daddy's little rich boy/girl.

College Tuition & Fees vs. Overall Inflation | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)


One of the problems I see is the structure that colleges are funded. Most deals are that you spend every dime in a good year so you can get that and more the next. If you don't spend it then the following budget will do down by the difference. That doesn't inspire frugality does it.
My college got into it with the state because they got some fund and instead of spending it all they held it for a bit and only spent the interest to buy new computers for the science department and they planned on doing this forever. When the state got wind of the account is was either spend it or see next years budged go down by that amount.

Originally Posted by bonehead

Recent times as in starting back to 1985?

Pretty much when the Federal government started giving money to colleges, whenever that was. Long before Obama.

I guess colleges knew that someday Obama was going to be elected and planned accordingly. To blame Obama for this is just plain dishonest. Pell grants are the life's blood for people to go to college that are not daddy's little rich boy/girl.

You miss the point, which incidentally I wasn't dealing with. Today the fed assists colleges and universities with grants and indirectly through guaranteed student loans. All the federal programs that make up the system are enshrined in law and come under the administration of the president. Whatever is wrong or right about the system, whether too much or too little is being spent belongs to Congress and/or the president. When the system started, whether under FDR, Reagan, Carter or Bush, has no functional bearing on it today. None of them are around to fix it. It's Obama's baby now. It is, therefore, valid to question whether he could have called for legislation to fix it or used what power he has to change the regulations.

One of the problems I see is the structure that colleges are funded. Most deals are that you spend every dime in a good year so you can get that and more the next. If you don't spend it then the following budget will do down by the difference. That doesn't inspire frugality does it.

Of course, what do you expect. The fed or the state isn't going to provide a school with slush funds or contributions to its endowment fund. Schools should only ask for what they need. Presumably, if they need it, they'll be spending it. If they don't spend it, then they don't need it. So, yes, deduct the unspent funds from the following year's request, and save the taxpayers some money. And send them an award for frugality.

I'll be interested to see what the Education Bubble looks like when it pops. I'm a dumbass, and I saw that one coming decades ago - I'm surprised more people aren't hip to it.

-dale

JAD,

The best theory I've seen for why college tuition rises at twice rate of inflation has to do with competition among universities for students and their investment practices.

supply and demand-- people see the difference in employment between HS grads and college grads, thus everyone knows having a college diploma commands a high, high premium.

the number of excellent schools being hard to expand, demand spikes while supply remains relatively stable...thus the insane price increases.

the problem is the quality of the education, though. right now employers tend to use a diploma as a basic screening tool; as the number of college grads increase, i suspect we'll see closer evaluation of what exactly that college education gave them. right now the quality is quite variable.

Originally Posted by astralis

JAD,



supply and demand-- people see the difference in employment between HS grads and college grads, thus everyone knows having a college diploma commands a high, high premium.

the number of excellent schools being hard to expand, demand spikes while supply remains relatively stable...thus the insane price increases.

the problem is the quality of the education, though. right now employers tend to use a diploma as a basic screening tool; as the number of college grads increase, i suspect we'll see closer evaluation of what exactly that college education gave them. right now the quality is quite variable.

Also, addition of guaranteed loans inflates prices.

-dale

Originally Posted by astralis

JAD,



supply and demand-- people see the difference in employment between HS grads and college grads, thus everyone knows having a college diploma commands a high, high premium.

We've always known that, but a college education was hard to get once upon a time. In fact, a high school education once stood roughly where a B.A. stands today. It was a big deal to finish high school.

the number of excellent schools being hard to expand, demand spikes while supply remains relatively stable...thus the insane price increases.

Probably true for the top schools. Down around the middle of the pack and lower, I think the reason for increasing tuition costs has to do with improvements to attract students.

the problem is the quality of the education, though. right now employers tend to use a diploma as a basic screening tool; as the number of college grads increase, i suspect we'll see closer evaluation of what exactly that college education gave them. right now the quality is quite variable.

I agree. The same phenomenon happened with high school diplomas some years back when they started handing them out like water.

I think the bar is going to be raised again to where a masters will be the basic standard. These on-line colleges are churning out diplomas.

IMO, the idea that everyone should get a college degree or be considered a failure is a crock. About the only good thing that comes out of jamming so many kids into college is that it takes a lot of them out of the job market for 4-5 years. Student loans are almost like unemployment compensation, except they have to be repaid. I'm being facetious. But I do believe we overemphasize the value of a college education. On the other hand, if you can come out able to make critical judgements, you've accomplished something.

Originally Posted by JAD_333

We've always known that, but a college education was hard to get once upon a time. In fact, a high school education once stood roughly where a B.A. stands today. It was a big deal to finish high school.



Probably true for the top schools. Down around the middle of the pack and lower, I think the reason for increasing tuition costs has to do with improvements to attract students.




I agree. The same phenomenon happened with high school diplomas some years back when they started handing them out like water.

I think the bar is going to be raised again to where a masters will be the basic standard. These on-line colleges are churning out diplomas.

IMO, the idea that everyone should get a college degree or be considered a failure is a crock. About the only good thing that comes out of jamming so many kids into college is that it takes a lot of them out of the job market for 4-5 years. Student loans are almost like unemployment compensation, except they have to be repaid. I'm being facetious. But I do believe we overemphasize the value of a college education. On the other hand, if you can come out able to make critical judgements, you've accomplished something.

Colleges are always trying to meet the changing requirements of the job markets. Now days a Bachelors barely gets you in the door for many jobs. A high school grad gets to pick and choose minimum wage jobs and is usually the last to move up the ladder. Education or lack of isn't what makes a failure. Education opens a lot of doors and opportunities that would otherwise be closed. One thing I noticed was a huge step up in maturity during the college years for many students. In addition to learning to think critically their worlds became much bigger and that extra 4 yr experience pays dividends on the job. Much the same as a 4 year stint in the military. However the college market looks to be saturating with online programs and whatnot. I see some value in the ability to go part time to be able to move up the ladder but do we really need 100 million people with a masters of business administration? How many of those high dollar programs are in reality very expensive diploma mills.

Originally Posted by bonehead

Colleges are always trying to meet the changing requirements of the job markets.

How?

-dale

Originally Posted by dalem

I'll be interested to see what the Education Bubble looks like when it pops. I'm a dumbass, and I saw that one coming decades ago - I'm surprised more people aren't hip to it.

-dale

That would suppose that a higher education is over valued. What are the viable options to a middle class life without higher education today? With the death of Unionism in this country their really is only public sector employment or college. Non Union jobs pay shit perhaps if the sahre of profits between labor and shareholders revertred to levels of 40 yrs ago we'd see some pressure on college tuition because theior were other options. There is a higher education bubble like there is a heart attack treatment bubble. When the option of not paying is weighed there is no real choice

If goverment money were the issue this would be a far greater problem in Europe

Originally Posted by dalem

How?

-dale

Quality programs have grown as have engineering programs geared toward alternative energies, waste management/water programs, biotech degrees, in manufacturing the two yr colleges in my state all have high end CNC programing degrees to feed the high end high paying jobs we have. To not see that education follows job trends is to ignore supply and demand.

JAD,

We've always known that, but a college education was hard to get once upon a time. In fact, a high school education once stood roughly where a B.A. stands today. It was a big deal to finish high school.

that's right. but there were other blocks at the time, prior to the GI bill; racial, cultural, and gender gaps prior to the 1940s-60s. BTW, while there's a lot of reason to bemoan the state of college education today, frankly speaking prior to the 60s colleges were more of a matchmaking/social service for the wealthy than anything else. sure, people did research, but the openly-acknowledged goal was for people to "network".

Down around the middle of the pack and lower, I think the reason for increasing tuition costs has to do with improvements to attract students.

probably, but even then the tuition costs don't increase quite as sharply. also, a lot of the middle of the pack schools-- the state schools-- are getting more expensive because the state government pays less and less. the UC system is a good example of this.

I think the bar is going to be raised again to where a masters will be the basic standard. These on-line colleges are churning out diplomas.

this is already true in the major metropolitan cities, DC being a prime example. the base degree for 99% of the professional jobs here is a MA.

IMO, the idea that everyone should get a college degree or be considered a failure is a crock.

i agree. of course, vocational system in the US sucks. also, even if there WAS a good system, folks taking this route would ideally recognize that if they ever wanted a salary that could even approach the professional route, they'd have to be a lot more mobile. unfortunately the folks most suited towards the vocational system are also the most immobile.

But I do believe we overemphasize the value of a college education. On the other hand, if you can come out able to make critical judgements, you've accomplished something.

learning critical judgment is good but not enough, IMO (although lord knows that's already a minority).

one of the weaknesses of our current system is that it does not do well in transitioning from college life to a professional life afterwards. part of this is professor bias (stuck in the ivory tower). another part is no set wayahead, the way professional degrees have (ie, there's a set path you can follow if you want to go for a MD or JD).

for liberal arts, which seems to be largely the province of homegrown americans (itself a problem; leaving S&T to immigrants is not a good idea), your path is largely determined by yourself. which works well for driven people, but does not work well for your average person.

Originally Posted by Roosveltrepub

That would suppose that a higher education is over valued.

Overvalued and overpriced.

What are the viable options to a middle class life without higher education today? With the death of Unionism in this country their really is only public sector employment or college. Non Union jobs pay shit perhaps if the sahre of profits between labor and shareholders revertred to levels of 40 yrs ago we'd see some pressure on college tuition because theior were other options. There is a higher education bubble like there is a heart attack treatment bubble. When the option of not paying is weighed there is no real choice

If goverment money were the issue this would be a far greater problem in Europe

Interesting. So you're saying that it's a degree or a union, nothing else can earn you a decent wage?

-dale

Originally Posted by dalem

Overvalued and overpriced.



Interesting. So you're saying that it's a degree or a union, nothing else can earn you a decent wage?

-dale

No, I am saying with the shift in the profits from labor continually sliding in favor of shareholders/management in large part because we lack unions today there just aren't nearly as many ways to make that good living outside of a union job. Tell me you think a lot of high school graduates are making 60k? Outside of constructiion mostly because of prevailing rate laws and perhaps sales when in an up cycle only the path to middle class living is a college degree period....

Beginning in the early 1980s, according to the Census, the college “premium” – the difference in annual earnings of a high school graduate and a college graduate – rose from 50 percent to approximately 80 percent. In 2007, workers with a high school degree made an average of $31,286 compared to $57,181, 82.8 percent more, for those with a bachelor’s degree. A college degree does not guarantee affluence, but it puts the recipient in a far better position to achieve or maintain upper-middle-class status than those without degrees.

The Reproduction of Privilege - NYTimes.com facts can't beat um and there is one set

Originally Posted by Roosveltrepub

No, I am saying with the shift in the profits from labor continually sliding in favor of shareholders/management in large part because we lack unions today there just aren't nearly as many ways to make that good living outside of a union job. Tell me you think a lot of high school graduates are making 60k? Outside of constructiion mostly because of prevailing rate laws and perhaps sales when in an up cycle only the path to middle class living is a college degree period.... The Reproduction of Privilege - NYTimes.com facts can't beat um and there is one set

So...

You're saying that it's a degree or a union, nothing else can earn you a decent wage.

-dale