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    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Myth of Free-Market American Health Care System

    If you're rich why should the government pay your health care costs?

    If you're using your own money to pay for health care, would you waste it on frivolous medical spending?

    The two model health care systems described in this just out Atlantic Monthly article seem to have factored human nature into their systems.

    Would either work here in the US?

    It's sobering to realize just how much money the US gov't now spends per capita on medical costs.


    The Myth of the Free-Market American Health Care System
    By Megan McArdle

    Mar 8 2012, 2:09 PM ET 304

    What the rest of the world can teach conservatives -- and all Americans -- about socialism, health care, and the path toward more affordable insurance

    Avik S. A. Roy

    Yesterday, Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry posted a stimulating comparison between the American and French health-care systems. "From my outlook," he writes, "there's something that I haven't seen discussed and yet seems striking to me: how similar the French and U.S. healthcare systems are. On its face, this seems like a preposterous notion: whenever the two are mentioned together, it's to say that they're polar opposites."

    Indeed, there are a lot of misconceptions about how America's health-care system compares to those of the other developed countries, including France. Both liberals and conservatives believe that the American system is a "free-market" or "capitalistic" one, and that European systems providing universal coverage are "socialized." In this article, I'll explain where both of these conceptions go wrong.

    THE FREE-MARKET MYTH

    In reality, per-capita state-sponsored health expenditures in the United States are the third-highest in the world, only below Norway and Luxembourg. And this is before our new health law kicks in. (The U.S. appears second in the chart because we only have 2008 data for the Luxembourgers):

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    In 2009, according to these statistics, which come mostly from the OECD, U.S. government entities spent $3,795 per person on health care, compared to $3,100 per person in France. Note that these stats are for government expenditures; they exclude private-sector health spending.

    If anything, the U.S. figures understate government health spending, because they exclude the $300 billion a year we "spend" through the tax code by making the purchase of employer-sponsored health insurance tax-exempt.

    So: if we measure the relative freedom of health-care systems by the dollar amount of government involvement in health spending, the French system is actually meaningfully freer than America's.

    There are, of course, other important things to consider in terms of health-care freedom: do individuals have freedom to choose their own doctor, their own insurance, their own treatments, etc. On these bases, countries like the United Kingdom would fare very poorly. But very few people appreciate that the American government spends far more on health care than those of nearly every other country.

    (For an excellent discussion of the ins-and-outs European health-care systems, I highly recommend this 2008 paper by Michael Tanner.)

    The thing to remember in America is that we have single-payer health care for the elderly and for the poor: the two costliest groups. In addition, the relatively healthy middle class has heavily-subsidized private health insurance, in which few individuals have the freedom to choose the insurance plan they receive. Neither of these facts commend the American health-care system to devotees of the free market.

    UNIVERSAL COVERAGE = SOCIALISM?

    One of the most frequently-made arguments in favor of socialized medicine is that it saves money, relative to the American system. And it is true that Europeans et al. spend less per-capita, and as a percentage of GDP, than we do.

    But the pro-socialism argument has a glaring weakness: it ignores the two most significant examples of market-oriented universal coverage in the developed world, Switzerland and Singapore, where state health spending is far lower than it is in other industrialized nations. Neither Switzerland nor Singapore could be described as libertarian utopias--both systems contain aspects that conservatives wouldn't like--but they provide powerful examples of how market-oriented health care systems are more cost-efficient than socialized ones.

    I've described Switzerland as having the world's best health-care system. In Switzerland, there are no government-run insurance plans, no "public options." Instead, the Swiss get subsidies, much like "premium support" proposals for Medicare reform or the PPACA exchanges, from which Swiss citizens buy health care from private insurers. The subsidies are scaled up or down based on income: poorer people get large subsidies; middle-income earners get small subsidies; upper-income earners get nothing.

    The OECD puts Switzerland high on the league tables in terms of government health spending, but that is due to a statistical anomaly. Switzerland has an individual mandate; the OECD defines state health expenditures to include insurance premiums that the government requires individuals to pay, even if that spending is on private insurance. That is a debatable approach from the OECD, because the spending goes directly to the insurers, without the government as a redistributor. If you adjust for this anomaly, Swiss state health spending is $1,281 per person (which accounts for the taxpayer-financed premium support subsidies). I've listed both figures in the chart.

    The premium support system allows the Swiss to shop for their own insurance plans, which gives them the opportunity to shop for value--something that almost no Americans do. As a result, about half of the Swiss have consumer-driven health plans, combining high-deductible insurance with health savings accounts for routine expenditures.

    THE SINGAPORE MIRACLE

    The other important market-oriented counterexample is Singapore. Singapore has, arguably, the most market-oriented system in the world. Singapore's GDP per capita is about 20 percent higher than America's, with comparable (if not higher) health outcomes, and spends an absurdly low amount on health care relative to the West. How do they do it?



    The key to the Singapore system is mandatory health savings accounts: again, something that libertarians and many conservatives wouldn't like. Matt Miller of the Center for American Progress describes Singapore as "further to the left and further to the right" than the American system--something that could also be said of Switzerland.

    In a manner somewhat like our Social Security system, Singapore takes mandatory deductions from workers' paychecks--around 20 percent of wages--and deposits them into health savings accounts called Medisave. Medisave accounts are used mostly for inpatient expenses, but also some outpatient ones. Singaporeans are expected to pay most of their outpatient expenses with non-Medisave cash.

    On top of Medisave, Singapore has a government-run catastrophic insurance program called Medishield. Singaporeans can opt out of that plan and buy private catastrophic insurance. Premiums for Medishield can be paid for using the Medisave health savings accounts.

    Then there is Medifund, a safety-net program for the bottom 10 percent of income earners, and Eldershield, a private insurance program for long-term care for those with old age-related disabilities. On top of these government-sponsored programs, Singaporeans can buy supplemental insurance for things like outpatient expenses.

    Why does this system work so well? Because it incorporates the central idea behind free-market health care: that health-care spending is most efficient when that spending is executed by individual patients, rather than third parties. It's easy to waste other people's money. But if that money is your own, you are going to try your best to spend it wisely.

    Singapore installed this system relatively recently. Prior to 1984, the former British colony had a system quite similar to that of Britain's National Health Service. In that year, the government reversed course, with impressive results. Singapore, of course, isn't a democracy--which allows the government to install sweeping changes that wouldn't be realistic here. (And in no way should my praise of Singapore's health-care system be interpreted as an endorsement of the country's political system.)

    WHAT WE CAN LEARN FROM THE WORLD

    The Swiss and Singaporean models wouldn't be perfect models for America; we would want to replace the Swiss individual mandate, for example, with a more market-oriented approach like allowing people to opt out of buying health insurance if they also agree to forego subsidized care. But both Switzerland and Singapore embody the most important principle of all: shifting control of health dollars from governments to individuals.

    How could something like this come about in the United States? One could imagine a scenario in which Medicare was converted into the premium-support model, such as one of the Paul Ryan plans, with far more aggressive means-testing such that upper-income seniors would no longer be eligible for the program. In addition, the tax exclusion for employer-sponsored health insurance is phased out. The resultant savings could be used to offer subsidized private insurance to lower-income individuals, as a replacement for Medicaid. Obamacare's exchanges, though seriously flawed in their implementation, have some similarities to this approach. As these programs converge, we could have something that starts to look a lot like Switzerland.

    The Singaporean system dovetails with an idea put forth by John Goodman and others of a universal tax credit that Americans could use to buy health insurance, or possibly even Medisave-like HSAs.

    My message to conservatives is: wake up. America's health care system has many qualities, but it is far more socialized than you think, and we can learn from the experience of other countries to make it better. My message to liberals is: if universal coverage is your goal, the possibility for bipartisan compromise exists, if you're open to considering market-oriented approaches like those in Switzerland and Singapore. Let's put our heads together.

    The Myth of the Free-Market American Health Care System - Megan McArdle - Business - The Atlantic
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    Last edited by JAD_333; 10 Mar 12, at 00:50.
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    Senior Contributor bonehead's Avatar
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    To be perfectly honest I don't give a rats ass how its funded. What matters to me is that the system is efficient, lean, safe, competitive and has a minimum quality standards.
    Take my last foray for example. I had an undisclosed pain for a few months and thought I had enough..time to have it checked out so I had my wife call the Dr and make an appointment. The next thing I know the wife is frantic and said that the Dr wants me to go to the ER. Fine. We go to the ER and a doctor does indeed find a mass in the scrotum,but it was not something else as originally feared. I get sent to another room for an ultrasound. Got really good pictures of the testicles but absolutely nothing of the mass nearby. The ER Dr says its probably an infection, even had the gall to hint of an STD but backpedaled. The ER visit and ultra sound cost a pretty penny but gave no real results. Strike One.
    I had to go to a regular urologist. After the turn and cough he feels the lump as well. Calls it a lump of fat and nothing to worry about. Specialty Dr visit. More money spent and yet no real result. Strike two.
    Something about the hemming and hawing of the last Dr made me suspicious so I got a second opinion at a place in another town. Got felt up by a third old man who also felt something and sent me to another ultrasound. Found a hernia...plain as day. Last Friday I went under the knife. On the way out I was.. well groggy, so I couldn't question the orders and prescriptions so the wife took everything to the pharmacy. I got a painkiller to take as needed. I also got 2 more pills to take care of the "side effects of the pain killer" WTF?? As my nature I would rather not take anything that is going to make me sicker and taking two pills to counter act the first fits into my definition. I was so furious that I stopped taking the pain killer by Sat night. Strike 3.

    The point is that I and my insurance company had to pay a lot of extra money to find and take care of something that really wasn't that hard to do. The system and I paid a lot of money for incompetence. Then I feel I had to pay far more for prescriptions. Why take 3 different kinds of medicine when just one will do.I have taken that painkiller before with no ill effects. Today I went back to the surgeon and got cleared of any restrictions. I did voice my displeasure at the "need" for the other two prescriptions. Other than the prescriptions the Dr was spot on and did a great job. What I would love to do is go back to the ER and the first Urologist kick them in the nuts then say,"sorry...Wrong prognosis" but something tells me I would be looked at as the bad guy. Hell I can't even realistically ask for my money back under the current system. Sorry for the rant but I feel better now.

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    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    To be perfectly honest I don't give a rats ass how its funded. What matters to me is that the system is efficient, lean, safe, competitive and has a minimum quality standards.
    If the money in your health savings account was yours to spend on any medical care you saw fit, would you be more or less careful in how you spend it? (This assumes you have separate insurance for major items and catastrophic coverage.)

    The point is that human nature has a lot to do with how people handle money. They plan better when its their own money and don't when its public money. So, why not structure a system that takes into account human nature?
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    To be perfectly honest I don't give a rats ass how its funded. What matters to me is that the system is efficient, lean, safe, competitive and has a minimum quality standards.
    Take my last foray for example. I had an undisclosed pain for a few months and thought I had enough..time to have it checked out so I had my wife call the Dr and make an appointment. The next thing I know the wife is frantic and said that the Dr wants me to go to the ER. Fine. We go to the ER and a doctor does indeed find a mass in the scrotum,but it was not something else as originally feared. I get sent to another room for an ultrasound. Got really good pictures of the testicles but absolutely nothing of the mass nearby. The ER Dr says its probably an infection, even had the gall to hint of an STD but backpedaled. The ER visit and ultra sound cost a pretty penny but gave no real results. Strike One.
    I had to go to a regular urologist. After the turn and cough he feels the lump as well. Calls it a lump of fat and nothing to worry about. Specialty Dr visit. More money spent and yet no real result. Strike two.
    Something about the hemming and hawing of the last Dr made me suspicious so I got a second opinion at a place in another town. Got felt up by a third old man who also felt something and sent me to another ultrasound. Found a hernia...plain as day. Last Friday I went under the knife. On the way out I was.. well groggy, so I couldn't question the orders and prescriptions so the wife took everything to the pharmacy. I got a painkiller to take as needed. I also got 2 more pills to take care of the "side effects of the pain killer" WTF?? As my nature I would rather not take anything that is going to make me sicker and taking two pills to counter act the first fits into my definition. I was so furious that I stopped taking the pain killer by Sat night. Strike 3.

    The point is that I and my insurance company had to pay a lot of extra money to find and take care of something that really wasn't that hard to do. The system and I paid a lot of money for incompetence. Then I feel I had to pay far more for prescriptions. Why take 3 different kinds of medicine when just one will do.I have taken that painkiller before with no ill effects. Today I went back to the surgeon and got cleared of any restrictions. I did voice my displeasure at the "need" for the other two prescriptions. Other than the prescriptions the Dr was spot on and did a great job. What I would love to do is go back to the ER and the first Urologist kick them in the nuts then say,"sorry...Wrong prognosis" but something tells me I would be looked at as the bad guy. Hell I can't even realistically ask for my money back under the current system. Sorry for the rant but I feel better now.
    I come from a family of doctors and worked along them to know that nothing is clear at the first prognosis. It takes several diagnosis to pin the problem. Human bodies are tricky things and nothing is simple or clear at first glance. That is why medicine is so expensive. It is not a straightforward process but involves many factors, tangible and intangibles.

    The system worked as it was supposed to do.

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    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    That can be the case only if the doctors did several tests to come to the conclusion and solved the problem. From what I understand bonehead had a problem, a student could diagnose. Assuming he told the same to all the doctors, he and his insurance should be able to get the money back.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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    I've described Switzerland as having the world's best health-care system. In Switzerland, there are no government-run insurance plans, no "public options." Instead, the Swiss get subsidies, much like "premium support" proposals for Medicare reform or the PPACA exchanges, from which Swiss citizens buy health care from private insurers. The subsidies are scaled up or down based on income: poorer people get large subsidies; middle-income earners get small subsidies; upper-income earners get nothing.
    I have absolutely no idea where they get that from.

    The Swiss system works as following:
    - everyone has to buy a "basic insurance" package
    - you can buy additional coverage in addition to that (basic covers next to nothing, e.g. zero dental)
    - depending on your employer you may not have a choice in which company to buy from
    - employers do not pay part of the premium
    - subsidies - which are for "people in low-income situations" only, it doesn't scale with income - vary extremely between the Swiss provinces, the only set subsidy is that poor children pay maximum 50% of the standard insurance premium (which will of course still ruin a family).

    That basic insurance costs about as much as insurance in Germany for a middle-income adult. Except it covers less. And doesn't cover your family. And has a 300 Dollar minimum deductible on every fucking medical expense. And medical bills have to be prepaid by you and later billed to the insurance company of course.

    In other words, from a German perspective, it's a capitalist crapload and a nightmare for dependant employees. Like most stuff coming out of Switzerland.

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    Dpn't like it,don't vote for it.
    Those who know don't speak
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    Global Moderator Defense Professional JAD_333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    I have absolutely no idea where they get that from.

    The Swiss system works as following:
    - everyone has to buy a "basic insurance" package
    - you can buy additional coverage in addition to that (basic covers next to nothing, e.g. zero dental)
    - depending on your employer you may not have a choice in which company to buy from
    - employers do not pay part of the premium
    - subsidies - which are for "people in low-income situations" only, it doesn't scale with income - vary extremely between the Swiss provinces, the only set subsidy is that poor children pay maximum 50% of the standard insurance premium (which will of course still ruin a family).

    That basic insurance costs about as much as insurance in Germany for a middle-income adult. Except it covers less. And doesn't cover your family. And has a 300 Dollar minimum deductible on every fucking medical expense. And medical bills have to be prepaid by you and later billed to the insurance company of course.

    In other words, from a German perspective, it's a capitalist crapload and a nightmare for dependant employees. Like most stuff coming out of Switzerland.
    I didn't see much difference between your and Atlantic Monthly's description of the Swiss system, except coverage. I understand everybody has to have a policy from age 6 months on. That in essence covers all members of a family.

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    Senior Contributor bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    If the money in your health savings account was yours to spend on any medical care you saw fit, would you be more or less careful in how you spend it? (This assumes you have separate insurance for major items and catastrophic coverage.)

    The point is that human nature has a lot to do with how people handle money. They plan better when its their own money and don't when its public money. So, why not structure a system that takes into account human nature?
    Wouldn't make a bit of difference. Either way you are ignorant of what is going on to your body and you have to trust the "professionals". A much better way to control costs is to open up competition between insurance companies. We need more qualified doctors and just because we are Americans doesn't mean we have to pay 5x more for the same medicine as the rest of the world does.

    Apparently people addicted to RX drugs have multiple doctors and farm pharmacies with multiple prescriptions. Pharmacies should be linked to a single database and when someone gets 50 oxicontin pills at 4 pharmacies in 2 days some bells and whistles should go off. Linking health insurance premiums to lifestyles would also see some savings.

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    Senior Contributor bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
    I come from a family of doctors and worked along them to know that nothing is clear at the first prognosis. It takes several diagnosis to pin the problem. Human bodies are tricky things and nothing is simple or clear at first glance. That is why medicine is so expensive. It is not a straightforward process but involves many factors, tangible and intangibles.

    The system worked as it was supposed to do.
    The only thing that worked was the pain that kept sending me back. The problem was easy to find. The second ultrasound took all of 5 minutes to verify what the third doctor was looking for. The trick is getting the professionals to do what they were supposed to do. The system also took 6 months. If it was a fast acting cancer I'd be dead and that is not what I think the system is supposed to do.

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    Got felt up by a third old man who also felt something and sent me to another ultrasound. Found a hernia...plain as day.
    Did you show the results of the first two doctors to the third guy ?

    What i mean is was the decision easier for him through a process of ellimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    I got a painkiller to take as needed. I also got 2 more pills to take care of the "side effects of the pain killer" WTF?? As my nature I would rather not take anything that is going to make me sicker and taking two pills to counter act the first fits into my definition. I was so furious that I stopped taking the pain killer by Sat night.
    When they make drugs they test them on 20-40 yr olds. But with older people those results need to be adjusted for with additional drugs because side-effects can vary depending on who is taking them.

    In general you are right, more driugs makes you sicker than not. Course you can't use this rationale with BP meds or there is a serious chance of a stroke.

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    We need more qualified doctors and just because we are Americans doesn't mean we have to pay 5x more for the same medicine as the rest of the world does.
    The only reason you do is because generics are widespread elsewhere.

    There is an important case in the supreme court in India where Novartis is contesting the grant of a patent. Indira Gandhi decided in the late 60s that we would not patent drigs but only the process they were made from. The rationale was to prevent ever greening, small tweaks without actually making the drug more effective. Efficacy isn't defined.

    This allowed for generics to be created with a different process and enabled lower prices as well as allowed for the growth of the pharmaceutical industy here. We relaxed that restriction somewhat in 1995. That means generics are possible for drugs that were made before that date. If the court case is won by the drug company the implications are that drugs will become more expensive in the future. And given India provides a bulk of the worlds generics notably HIV meds the knock on effects will be serious.

    Am not sure what explains the cost difference, a relative of mine from the gulf whenever on holiday here buys a stock of his meds to take back. The exact same medication costs a fraction fo the price he pays over there.

    As for more qualified doctors, that a bit of a laugh because US is the big magnet for them, they get paid more than their counterparts elsewhere. If you're in a major city then you will have very good access to doctors.

    The health care debate is a very contentious one and each country tends to jealously guard whatever system them have. There is the European model, the american model & the indian model. Its been near impossible for me to find any common ground when talking about the benefits of one system with people of another system. Germany's system dates to 1880 and they were the first to introudce subsidised health care.

    Americans & europeans are on opposite ends of the spectrum and hate the others system and India isn't even in the spectrum but hovering somewhere above.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 10 Mar 12, at 10:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAD_333 View Post
    I didn't see much difference between your and Atlantic Monthly's description of the Swiss system
    The Atlantic Monthly implies that there are government subsidies that slide along a scale inverse to income, which in itself implies that there's a social aspect to it. There isn't.
    Then again we're talking about a country where unions are currently calling for a minimum wage of $20/hour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    There is the European model, the american model & the indian model. Its been near impossible for me to find any common ground when talking about the benefits of one system with people of another system.
    There are a couple more models than that, especially as there's no joint European model. The German model for example has nothing in common with the one applied in the UK or Italy.

    The Swiss model takes exactly those parts of the German model that most Germans want to abolish in order to emulate a pseudo-American model.
    Last edited by kato; 10 Mar 12, at 10:40.

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    There are a couple more models than that, especially as there's no joint European model. The German model for example has nothing in common with the one applied in the UK or Italy.

    The Swiss model takes exactly those parts of the German model that most Germans want to abolish in order to emulate a pseudo-American model.
    Sure, but i was referring to archtypes. The swiss model is a hybrid. UK, Italy & rest of the EU are variants of the german one. Same again with Canada, Aus & NZ.

    The basis i use to categorise the three systems is the manner in which they are financed.

    The european system is subsidised, the american one is partly subsidised but to a much smaller extent (medicare & medicaid only) than the european one with private insurance filling in the remainder. Private capital is the dominant factor in US helath care in comparison to all variants of the german one where public funds is the dominant factor.

    The indian one isn't subsidised directly at all. Its pay as you go. The indian one seems to me to be the most free-market of the other two. The developing world uses a similar model.

    Maybe in the US free-market health care is a myth but its a reality in the developing world

    The myth is supported by highsea's 47-53 public-private holding characterisation of US finances.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 10 Mar 12, at 11:11.

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    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    DE, India face altogether different issues then Germany, France, UK or USA. This is like comparing apples and oranges.

    From what I have read you need a heavy investment in rural areas as well as in new hospitals to reach WHO standards in terms of bed per capita ratio. Then infrastructure and availability of the system to the population...

    Without investments you can make the system totally free, but will it work?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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