Fix education, restore social mobility

**gunnut** · 16 Nov 11,, 20:02

Originally Posted by snapper

I pay ALL that + VAT, Capital Gains, road tax, tv licensce, extra tax on wine and petrol (don't smoke thankfuly), effective 'green tax', and help pay for Euro debacle! "You had it easy! When I were a lad..."

I essentialy agree with you though.

I pay gas (petrol) tax as well. Not to your extent, but I might drive more than you do.

I'm listing only the stuff that I have to pay, not the fee fees and foo foos that the government tacks on to optional items.

Car license, cable TV fees, cell phone fees (to support "poor" people who are entitled to discount services), FFL fee every time I buy a gun (I know you don't get that there, but it's nearly free in other states), property tax (bad in an area with real estate bubble), on and on and on....

Western democracies have bloated governments to manage bloated welfares and entitlements. These need to be trimmed.

**Roosveltrepub** · 16 Nov 11,, 20:36

Originally Posted by DOR

If you're paying 9.3% state tax on top of your federal tax, you need a new tax adviser.

he isn't inthe class that buys tax loophole creating legislation he just support s the pols who do so for other folks. A flat tax with a vat would be a substantial tax increase for him wheh he subtracted his mortgage interest, property tax and state tax deductions. Most folks only consider their gross incomes and top marginal rate when considering the taxes they pay. they don't consider the easy 15k in deductions a homeowner making 50 or 60k gets. 15k in deductions in mortg, property taxes and state takes with charity added in gets awfil close making net income in the 30s creating an actual rate of 15 percent making a 20 percent flat tax and a vat a massive tax increase. The tax system in the USa's real shortfall isnt having the right advisor it's te growing number of loopholes inserted into the code the higher your gross income. and the imaginary idea that people wont invest if they pay cap gains as regular income. I mean really we cut cap gains and had the worst decade since the depression in earning power for all but a few

**FJV** · 16 Nov 11,, 21:32

I see that people have fallen for a such simple debating trick. Now all of a sudden the discussion revolves about the evils of taxation instead of fixing education.

This is why I wouldn't answer what wealth was, because I knew it would result in pages and pages about who'se definition of wealth is the correct one. Even though it could be an interesting dicussion if held honestly.

As for fixing education, not all government problems can be fixed by spending more money.

In such cases, the people decide to spend the money on pay raises and pet projects.

Then it may be better for someone outside to step in and take control of how the money is spent.

**Roosveltrepub** · 16 Nov 11,, 21:47

Originally Posted by FJV

I see that people have fallen for a such simple debating trick. Now all of a sudden the discussion revolves about the evils of taxation instead of fixing education.

This is why I wouldn't answer what wealth was, because I knew it would result in pages and pages about who'se definition of wealth is the correct one. Even though it could be an interesting dicussion if held honestly.

As for fixing education, not all government problems can be fixed by spending more money.

In such cases, the people decide to spend the money on pay raises and pet projects.

Then it may be better for someone outside to step in and take control of how the money is spent.

the thing is we are the people. I think a root cause of the problem is the increased stress on the family due to the huge increase in the number of hours worked just to get by and the subsequent decline in parenting ability and child supervison by parents. Economic inequity creates societal problems and all the cash thrown at education in the world will do nothing to those root causes

**gunnut** · 16 Nov 11,, 22:33

Originally Posted by Roosveltrepub

he isn't inthe class that buys tax loophole creating legislation he just support s the pols who do so for other folks. A flat tax with a vat would be a substantial tax increase for him wheh he subtracted his mortgage interest, property tax and state tax deductions. Most folks only consider their gross incomes and top marginal rate when considering the taxes they pay. they don't consider the easy 15k in deductions a homeowner making 50 or 60k gets. 15k in deductions in mortg, property taxes and state takes with charity added in gets awfil close making net income in the 30s creating an actual rate of 15 percent making a 20 percent flat tax and a vat a massive tax increase. The tax system in the USa's real shortfall isnt having the right advisor it's te growing number of loopholes inserted into the code the higher your gross income. and the imaginary idea that people wont invest if they pay cap gains as regular income. I mean really we cut cap gains and had the worst decade since the depression in earning power for all but a few

Deductions can be offset by lower marginal rate.

The original tax rate was much lower, with no deductions. Over the years we raised the rates while added deductions. The resulting tax receipts was almost a constant 20% but we have skewed the market toward what the government considers to be "good" for the country.

**gunnut** · 16 Nov 11,, 22:33

Originally Posted by FJV

I see that people have fallen for a such simple debating trick. Now all of a sudden the discussion revolves about the evils of taxation instead of fixing education.

This is why I wouldn't answer what wealth was, because I knew it would result in pages and pages about who'se definition of wealth is the correct one. Even though it could be an interesting dicussion if held honestly.

As for fixing education, not all government problems can be fixed by spending more money.

In such cases, the people decide to spend the money on pay raises and pet projects.

Then it may be better for someone outside to step in and take control of how the money is spent.

We have proposed ways to fix education.

Washington DC went to the charter school or voucher program with great success. Guess who shut it down?

**Roosveltrepub** · 16 Nov 11,, 23:23

Originally Posted by gunnut

Deductions can be offset by lower marginal rate.

The original tax rate was much lower, with no deductions. Over the years we raised the rates while added deductions. The resulting tax receipts was almost a constant 20% but we have skewed the market toward what the government considers to be "good" for the country.

yeah and taxes are 14 percent of gdp. Your taxes seem high because the highest earners having seen an avg yrly growth in income around 7-8 percent the last 30 yrs are paying a high percentage of total taxes but, as a percentage of their earnings an extremely low rate. the fact they have had exponential income growth masks the historically low rates they enjoy. You think your taxes are high based on the comparison between your earnings and taxes while basing the conclusion high earners are fairly or over taxed by the totals taxes paid in and of itself. if spending were kept to 18 percent of gnp our current system would have a defict of 23% of total spending which is unsustainable. Bruce Bartlett: Are Taxes in the U.S. High or Low? - NYTimes.com

**Roosveltrepub** · 16 Nov 11,, 23:28

Originally Posted by gunnut

We have proposed ways to fix education.

Washington DC went to the charter school or voucher program with great success. Guess who shut it down?

When standardized test scores soared in D.C., were the gains real? - USATODAY.com cheating is not a sign of succuss

**gunnut** · 17 Nov 11,, 00:00

A few teachers and a principal from a single school cheats is an indictment for the entire charter school system?

**gunnut** · 17 Nov 11,, 00:02

Originally Posted by Roosveltrepub

yeah and taxes are 14 percent of gdp. Your taxes seem high because the highest earners having seen an avg yrly growth in income around 7-8 percent the last 30 yrs are paying a high percentage of total taxes but, as a percentage of their earnings an extremely low rate. the fact they have had exponential income growth masks the historically low rates they enjoy. You think your taxes are high based on the comparison between your earnings and taxes while basing the conclusion high earners are fairly or over taxed by the totals taxes paid in and of itself. if spending were kept to 18 percent of gnp our current system would have a defict of 23% of total spending which is unsustainable. Bruce Bartlett: Are Taxes in the U.S. High or Low? - NYTimes.com

You're saying the more money I make, the lower taxes I pay? That is not my experience.

**Roosveltrepub** · 17 Nov 11,, 01:06

Originally Posted by gunnut

You're saying the more money I make, the lower taxes I pay? That is not my experience.

Nah you know exavtly what i said and since it is irrefutable decided to challenge something I didnt say

**Doktor** · 17 Nov 11,, 01:50

Cali schools fixed

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**Doktor** · 17 Nov 11,, 01:52

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Sasha Grey.

**Roosveltrepub** · 17 Nov 11,, 01:53

Originally Posted by gunnut

A few teachers and a principal from a single school cheats is an indictment for the entire charter school system?

So, if it is several schools does your claim become false? Also, since you yourself through out the 20 percent of gdp as goverment spending number and revenue is 14 percent doesnt that mean we have a revenue shortfall?