Thread: Fix education, restore social mobility

Originally Posted by astralis

gunnut,

not sure why education reform counts as a "european solution". like i said earlier, it's not as if we need to throw more money into the mix to get reforms; the europeans and asians spend less than we do and get better results.

The governments may spend less. They have transferred the spending to the parents.

I have a Niece in a South Korean academic High School. Unless attitudes in the States change, the Korean system would never work.

GG,

They have transferred the spending to the parents. I have a Niece in a South Korean academic High School. Unless attitudes in the States change, the Korean system would never work.

as a partial product of THAT particular system, i agree. however, the part that can be changed via policy, ie our own public school system, would probably have a few things to learn from their equivalents on the other side of the world.

just as they do ours.

Originally Posted by Doktor

If workers in Boeing produce crap that doesn't fly, what would happen?
Boeing will close, train the workers to work better or hire new workers?

I have no idea what your point is with that.

Since it's public service you should threat the teachers same as Police or Army. Including the right to strike

What?

-dale

Originally Posted by dalem

I have no idea what your point is with that.

If they suck as teachers, change them or train them. Same as you would do with any other worker.

What?

I am pretty sure the policemen and soldiers can't go on strike when they want, same should be for the teachers.

-dale

Dok

Originally Posted by Doktor

I am pretty sure the policemen and soldiers can't go on strike when they want, same should be for the teachers.
Dok

We had a police strike here in Hong Kong in the 1970s.
Not good.

We had few here recently. It is kinda weird to watch the police making cordon around their colleagues

Anyway, at least here, they can go to strike for a limited period of time (2 hours/day IIRC) after they work the rest of the shift.

Originally Posted by Doktor

If they suck as teachers, change them or train them. Same as you would do with any other worker.

I am pretty sure the policemen and soldiers can't go on strike when they want, same should be for the teachers.

Dok

I just don't think they're that important. They're just people with jobs - no reason for any special treatment.

-dale

Originally Posted by Doktor

gunnut,

We both dislike bureaucracy.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think somewhere you stated you are against more teachers in the schools. Teachers are not bureaucrats, teachers are workers.

If you have more kids in the schools, or they have more to learn you need more teachers or at least more effective teachers.
IMO, first you should invest in the teachers (workers) in order to get better education (product).

I am sure education has something to do with social mobility. You don't have many illiterate people doing good in life.

That sounds good in theory, and to a certain extent, it is true.

However, only so many people in the population are fit to teach. And only so many of them want to teach. When you exhaust that base, you will start getting people who aren't qualified to teach.

We want to reform schools and teachers here by using a merit system. Good teachers should get more pay while bad teachers get less, or laid off. The teachers union has been fighting tooth and nail against this reform, arguing that a teacher's performance cannot be measured due to our diverse student population.

The same people also has a "teacher of the year" award. How interesting that a teacher's performance cannot be measured to determine pay scale but we can come up with the "best" teacher of the year.

Originally Posted by astralis

gunnut,



not sure why education reform counts as a "european solution". like i said earlier, it's not as if we need to throw more money into the mix to get reforms; the europeans and asians spend less than we do and get better results.

we have a historical basis to see how education ties into the economy/social mobility and growth; from the 50s-70s the US school system was world-class, and we produced plenty of our own home-grown engineers and scientists. this allowed us to outcompete the rest of the world, especially with immigration of their best and brightest. our growth in the 50s and 60s were considerably in excess of anything else afterwards, including the 80s-early 2000s boom. moreover, much of the latter boom's growth was concentrated in a small section of the populace.

we're now a lot more dependent on foreign students coming in. if this well dries up...

So...our education system was fine before the 1970s...what happened during that time?

Originally Posted by Doktor

If workers in Boeing produce crap that doesn't fly, what would happen?
Boeing will close, train the workers to work better or hire new workers?

That's right. A private firm would be punished in the market if it continuously produce crap. Take a look at GM. Of course the government "stupidly" bailed out GM. It was really a buying votes using tax dollars.

Originally Posted by Doktor

Since it's public service you should threat the teachers same as Police or Army. Including the right to strike

Strike as in boycott their product? We could, but since government essentially act as a monopoly with legal powers and union thugs as enforcers, we still have to pay even if we don't use the product.

Send your kids to private school? Sure. But you don't get the money you dumped into the public school system back to help paying for a different product. You can try not paying that portion of the tax. Then the enforcers show up.

Originally Posted by gunnut

So...our education system was fine before the 1970s...what happened during that time?

The growth of two income middle class and working class families being needed to get by and the subsequent diminished time to parant

Originally Posted by Doktor

I am pretty sure the policemen and soldiers can't go on strike when they want, same should be for the teachers.


Dok

Police technically cannot go on strike. However, they arrange to be sick all at the same time. It's called "blue flu" or a "sick out."

Originally Posted by Roosveltrepub

The growth of two income middle class and working class families being needed to get by and the subsequent diminished time to parant

Hmmm....so the problem goes deeper than the education system itself. It's really a societal problem. In this case, the solution would be far more complex and far reaching than simply reforming the education system.

Originally Posted by gunnut

That's right. A private firm would be punished in the market if it continuously produce crap. Take a look at GM. Of course the government "stupidly" bailed out GM. It was really a buying votes using tax dollars.



Strike as in boycott their product? We could, but since government essentially act as a monopoly with legal powers and union thugs as enforcers, we still have to pay even if we don't use the product.

Send your kids to private school? Sure. But you don't get the money you dumped into the public school system back to help paying for a different product. You can try not paying that portion of the tax. Then the enforcers show up.

If goverment is the problem the idea goverment employees are so indispensible they cant unionize is a lie
I love your revisonist history on gm. Just keep telling yourself the bondholders were poor victims and we wouldnt be in a depression if ALL auto plants in the country had suffered supply chain disruptions and been forced to lay off