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Thread: Ineffective New York Protestors create chaos

  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyppok View Post
    Imagine if in an economy there were 5 business licenses so that 95 out of 100 businesses had to work in the black market because they couldn't otherwise. Eventually they would either be granted licenses, periodically closed (and reopened, with graft destroying the system), or the system would morph to accommodate them.
    Umm... that's a very simplified economic view. And one that's pretty much only applicable to a non-ressource-based services industry and small business vending of natural or semi-refined goods. True state control does not attack the customer supply side, it attacks the business supply side. Deny an illegal business the resources to operate and it won't be able to operate.

    Germany's conservatives understood that pretty well when rebuilding the economy. Limit effective control to basic resources - electricity, fossil energy, water, ores, labour - and you control everything that depends on it. Steer supply to steer the economy. Don't do this directly though - gain indirect control through shareholder stakes in key industries and policy.

    A [Social Market Economy] works pretty damn good in a capitalist system.

  2. #422
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    Yes its very simplified I am trying to make a point.

    The consolidation in various industries has been very intense, the room for competition is HUGE!!!, but its' not happening on a massive scale... why? (one reason is asset price keep incoming competition from getting into the door, think equipment prices high due to credit, rents due to real estate asset prices and real estate taxes, but commodity prices are dropping so raw material is getting cheaper to compete with existing inventory holders whom are paying ratcheted up costs.)


    electricity example (most businesses in Ukraine pay bribes to their local electrical surveyor to show they use less electricity)
    water (big companies and bottlers from coke to pepsi get breaks and infrastructure breaks from local/state/fed while small bottlers have to figure things out niche wise)
    [two things can happen simple skirting ergo actually extract water by well or other way while pretending to get it through the system or some other way]
    labour (illegal immigrants come to mind or simply paying people cash you get from a retailer who gets paid cash)

    in order for society to work like a police state ergo Germany or USA there has to be one fundamental thing, the compliance of the public. If your cereal costs go to $10 and your income is cut in half you will not comply in putting out of business a store that charges $3 a box for cereal they get from a local manufacturer. Both store/manufacturer will not be completely in the black market but they will have shades of grey those shades are determined how much they can get away with via consumer complicity and the governmental obesity regulation wise.

    Everything is surmountable in one way or another.

    Another example is cumulative tax rates for oil companies in Russia prior to economic collapse, all of which were running losses because paying those rates was beyond their ability. There are neat examples in the states but don't have economic history on tip of my mind here.
    Last edited by cyppok; 06 May 12, at 08:45.
    Originally from Sochi, Russia.

  3. #423
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    Cleveland Bombing Suspect Tied To ‘Occupy’ Movement
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    Cleveland Bombing Suspect Tied To 'Occupy' Movement

    One the suspects arrested for attempting to blow up a Cleveland area bridge last week signed a warehouse lease for the local ‘Occupy’ Movement, further tying the terrorists to the far-left group.

    According to Cleveland.com, terror suspect Anthony Hayne, 35, signed a lease for a local warehouse, where twelve members of ‘Occupy’ live.

    As previously reported, Hayne and five others were arrested May 1 for trying to blow up a bridge that carries a four-lane highway over part of the Cuyahoga Valley National Park in the Brecksville area, about 15 miles south of downtown Cleveland. The suspects were first spotted at an ‘Occupy Cleveland’ rally by an FBI informant, when he noticed them going through the crowd, expressing their displeasure at the demonstrators’ unwillingness to engage in violent acts.

    The men were carrying walkie-talkies at the time, the informant said.

    Occupy Cleveland leaders, who had distanced themselves from the men, expressed fear that the new linkage would spell “disaster” for the movement.

    They are now in the process of taking Hayne’s name off the lease at the 3619 Walton Avenue warehouse. The landlord said this would not be a problem to accomplish.

    Occupy Cleveland leaders said they were considering moving from the US$600-a-month warehouse to limit media damage.

    Cleveland ranked as the fourth poorest city in America in 2009, as previously reported.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  4. #424
    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post


    Hard to watch...
    Actually, the Tony Stark wannabe is closer to reality than some folks probably give him credit for. He isn't very articulate, but one of the things he's saying is that housing, loans, etc. might as well be considered "free" as long as we are putting them on the National Charge Card. Amidst all the Desolation of Smug "hey I'm on TV!" smirks, he IS trying to make a point about debt load. His solution set is boofed, but he's not wrong about one of the big parts of The Problem, IMO.

    Now. Anyone who's just ruined a keyboard, suffered a stroke, or had their eyeballs explode because I just semi-agreed with an OWS guy, well, I'm sorry.

    Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I don't listen to Hannity's radio show, and why sometimes I get annoyed with Medved's show as well - a little too busy with barking over people who actually are saying something insightful amidst a tide of blather. The really good hosts can (and do) pick out commonalities as well as differences in their guests. I consider Hugh Hewitt to be very good at this, and Dennis Prager to be a master. IMO.

    -dale
    Last edited by dalem; 06 May 12, at 21:27. Reason: Sean Hannity made me do it.

  5. #425
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    NATO Summit: 3 Protesters Arrested, Charged with Conspiracy to Commit Terrorism - Yahoo! News
    ATO Summit: 3 Protesters Arrested, Charged with Conspiracy to Commit Terrorism
    ABC NewsBy ALEX PEREZ and ANDY FIES | ABC News – 11 hrs ago
    Related Content


    Three men accused of building Molotov cocktails were also planning attacks at President Obama's Chicago campaign headquarters and at the home of Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel during the NATO Summit, prosecutors said.

    Brian Church, 20, of Ft. Lauderdale Fla., 24-year-old Vincent Betterly of Oakland Park, Fla., and 24-year-old Jared Chase of Keene, N.H. have all been arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit terrorism, providing support for terrorism and possession of an explosive or incendiary device.

    "These men were here to hurt people," Cook County State's Attorney Anita Alvarez said in a news conference.

    The defendants are self-proclaimed members of the "Black Bloc" group.

    In addition to materials to make molotov cocktails, police say the defendants had various weapons, including a mortar gun, swords, a hunting bow, throwing stars, knives, brass knucles.

    "This plot does not represent protest behavior, this is criminal behavior," said Chicago Police Superintendent Garry Mccarthy.

    The men argue the materials police collected in an overnight raid Wednesday were used to brew beer.

    Initially, nine men were taken into custody, six others have since been released.

    Church, Betterly, and Chase, who are reportedly associated with the Occupy movement, say police are targeting them.

    The National Lawyers Guild is representing the protesters.

    Attorneys say a week ago the same three men were riding together in a car, when police pulled them over, questioned them, and then allowed them to continue with their day.

    The men say they captured audio of the incident and posted it here on Youtube.

    Many supporting the three charged men have taken to Twitter using the hashtag #NATO3.

    All Eyes on Chicago

    The arrests have contributed to an already tense environment as Chicago awaits the start of the NATO Summit. Thousands of protestors from across the country are already here for the international meeting which begins Sunday and ends Monday.

    The Occupy movement, anarchists, anti-war supporters, environmentalists, and countless other groups are all competing to have their voices heard during the gathering of the world's most powerful leaders.

    Months of planning and security preps will all be put to the test.

    The stakes are high. This is President's Obama's hometown, and Mayor Rahm Emanuel just marked his first year in office.

    Some 50 heads of state are expected to descend on the Windy City for the Summit.

    With street closures, rerouting of public transportation, and the complete shut-down of a busy stretch of Lake Shore Drive, the conference will make getting around the nation's third largest city a nightmare.

    Many of the 300,000 people who work in the downtown "loop" area have been told to work from home Friday and Monday. Those who do venture to the office have been told to ditch the business suits and dress casually, to avoid becoming targets of anti-corporate demonstrations.

    Massive Security The U.S. Secret Service and F.B.I. have been in Chicago coordinating security efforts for at least the last two weeks.

    Air Force F-16 jets are on alert to enforce flight restrictions over Chicago, and the U.S. Coast Guard is patrolling the waters of Lake Michigan with heavily armed vessels.

    The Illinois National Guard and Illinois State Police will help shuttle motorcades to and from O'Hare Airport.

    Sharp-shooters will be posted along the city's famed Michigan Avenue.

    Bomb-sniffing dogs are on public transportation, and teams of officers on foot, and on bicycles, are scattered across the downtown area.

    At a secret location in the suburbs outside Chicago, a Multi-Agency Communications Center—dubbed MACC-- has been created. Representatives from 43 federal, state, and local agencies will be in the same room to share real-time security information with each other.

    Roger Goodes with the United States Secret Service says streamlined communication will be key should an emergency strike.

    "For us in this room, we fear nothing. We think we are prepared to handle anything that comes up."

    The Chicago Police Department is spearheading security on the ground.

    All of the department's nearly 13,000 officers will be on the clock this weekend. Also, police officers from Milwaukee and Philadelphia have been called in for back-up.

    Police Superintendent Garry Mccarthy says he wants to protect demonstrators' first amendment rights to protest, but safety will be paramount.

    Police will be using high-tech countermeasures such as "sound cannons"—a device that can emit ear splitting sounds and messages to large crowds-- should protests threaten to get out of hand.

    Authorities have also been consulting with police in Seattle, a city scarred after a World Trade Organization meeting in 1999 led to several days of violence there.

    Superintendent Mccarthy is also trying a new approach. In an effort to not incite protestors, many officers will be in their everyday uniforms. Officers in full riot gear will be standing by and deployed when necessary.

    Security expert Jeff Cramer, with Kroll Advisory Solutions, believes the months of training officers have undergone will go a long way to keep protests peaceful.

    "The lessons that they have learned and the discretion of the police officers on the scene, that's what it comes down to. It's the police officer on the scene who is confronted with a protester, what does he or she do? And it's that discretion and training, that's what's going to determine how this weekend goes."

    The security measures extend online as well, where cyber-police are working to block hackers before they strike. Authorities also say they are closely following Twitter and Facebook messages posted by protest groups, in hopes of stymieing off any threats before they become a reality.

    Business

    The NATO Summit is supposed to bring almost $130 million in revenue to city coffers.

    But for some business owners the conference will cost them money.

    Fearing that protests could lead to riots and looting, some businesses have decided to keep their doors closed this weekend.

    Rosa Yamada, who owns Designs by Rosa, a flower shop in downtown Chicago, will not be opening this weekend. The month of May is the middle of flower-selling season—peak time for graduations, weddings, and other ceremonies where flowers are a must.

    Choosing to close this weekend was a tough decision, likely to cost her hundreds of dollars in business. Yamada fears street closures, and the uncertainty surrounding protests, will keep customers from coming in.

    "In the 20 years that I've been in business, this will be the first Saturday—for the very first time—that we will be closing. I'm concerned for things going crazy."

    Many businesses, including 22 Starbucks stores, have installed plastic film overlays to keep storefront windows from shattering.

    Also Read
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  6. #426
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    Twitter By your criteria the tea party are Nazis(JT Ready) who support suicide attacks on federal property....OWS is so 2011
    Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.”
    ~Ronald Reagan

  7. #427
    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    I laugh at them because they are stupid.

    The Sad Demise of the Occupy Movement | Power Line

    -dale

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalem View Post
    I laugh at them because they are stupid.

    The Sad Demise of the Occupy Movement | Power Line

    -dale
    Seen in the comments section:

    To my mind the 'activist community', as they call themselves, is stuck in a perpetual adolescent rebellion. Its really a lifestyle and social community that's self reinforcing. Lots of drugs and self rightiousness. Malignant is a good way to describe it.
    Brilliant. Absolutely freaking BRILLIANT summation of these deadbeats.
    Among the community of nations, Pakistan today stands out on one hand as a petty thug brandishing a dangerous weapon, and at other times as a concubine, sleeping with anyone willing to pay for her expensive tastes. ~ Tarek Fatah

  9. #429
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    One of the central theme of the "occupy" movement is "debt forgiveness." We have too much debt, from student loan to underwater housing market, so the banks should "forgive" the debt and give people a new start. This extends to the international stage as well. Rich nations should forgive debt owed by the poor nations.

    Here's my question, should workers forgive the debt owed to them by pension funds that are broke? You know, shared sacrifice?
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    that's pretty much what's happening as the pension crisis spreads down from the state level to the municipal level.
    The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"

    -Leo Tolstoy
    War and Peace

  11. #431
    Idiot Mode [ON] OFF Senior Contributor YellowFever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Seen in the comments section:



    Brilliant. Absolutely freaking BRILLIANT summation of these deadbeats.
    LoL.....those comments are funny.

    "all these people followed Gump until he got tired and went back home"

  12. #432
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Pensions should be reformed into 401k type defined contribution plan. Retirement age for all, not just union workers or government workers, should be raised to lessen the liability of social security, medicare, and all retirement funds.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  13. #433
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    This reminds me, on my way to Mammoth this last March, I saw about 7 "Occupy" protestors holding up signs outside city hall in Independence, CA. I don't think I've seen or heard of one since.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  14. #434
    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    One of the central theme of the "occupy" movement is "debt forgiveness." We have too much debt, from student loan to underwater housing market, so the banks should "forgive" the debt and give people a new start. This extends to the international stage as well. Rich nations should forgive debt owed by the poor nations.

    Here's my question, should workers forgive the debt owed to them by pension funds that are broke? You know, shared sacrifice?
    How about the debt owed to them in their next paycheck? Is that to be forgiven too?

    -dale

  15. #435
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    Forgive everything to everyone and see how it will end
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

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