Daily Liberal FAIL Thread

[Blue]

7th, the problem with Blues postion is that the ends justify the means.

So in your honest opinion, what do you REALLY think will prevail?

Liberty must be guarded most from the Government. it is our most precious thing. Our forefathers fought and died to give it to us, we must be cognizant of its value and make sure than the government cannot extinguish it.

True, but our forefathers only defended against against a regime that was trying to opress them. That was long before the Geneva convention and don't even think that atrocities did not exist then and do not forget the atrocities against the constitution that Lincoln commited against the citizens to ensure the survival of the union.

Fact is, if you condone Lincoln, FDR or even TR, ask yourself this, did the ends justify the means?

If you are going to cite the founders, be prepared to accept thier tactics aginst thier enemies, which is exactly what Blues was saying, in my interpretation.

Blues, please correct me if I am reading you wrong here.

[zraver]

So in your honest opinion, what do you REALLY think will prevail?

If we stay true to our values, we will. If we lose ourselves in the fight, then its all up in the air.

True, but our forefathers only defended against against a regime that was trying to opress them. That was long before the Geneva convention and don't even think that atrocities did not exist then and do not forget the atrocities against the constitution that Lincoln commited against the citizens to ensure the survival of the union.

I already cited one example of what Lincoln did to the Constitution (Copperheads). I don't agree with those actions.

Fact is, if you condone Lincoln, FDR or even TR, ask yourself this, did the ends justify the means?

I am not justifying them. I've already adressed Lincoln, unaware of anything about TR. As for FDR, the internment of Americans in camps was a disgrace.

If you are going to cite the founders, be prepared to accept thier tactics aginst thier enemies, which is exactly what Blues was saying, in my interpretation.

Washington didn't go around setting off bombs in the middle of London. By far Washington fought straight up, it was the British burning towns and farms. The part of the Revolution that was a civil war (Tori v Patriot) was nasty, but it was not official policy either. Likewise what we did do as official policy to the Native Americans was a disgrace and a disaster and in at least one case- illegal. Andrew Jackson flat out ignored the Supreme Court.

[Blue]

[QUOTE]

As for FDR, the internment of Americans in camps was a disgrace.

Absolutely. So we must wonder if the actions of our forefathers damaged us or saved us. They say the son pays for the sins of the father. Are we paying now for those things? Would WWII been any different if FDR hadn't interned those Americans? Would the civil war had the same outcome if Lincoln hadn't violated the constitution?

I'm not saying we need to be as barbarous as our enemy, but I have never seen a lamb whip a lion. I think one day we will have to decide to succumb or pull out the stops. Maybe not tomorrow, but eventually. Solely my opinion there and not saying that I condone it, but I can understand it. Just like I understand why Lincoln and FDR did what they did, though its easy to make the call thus far past.

[astralis]

7thsf,

They say the son pays for the sins of the father. Are we paying now for those things? Would WWII been any different if FDR hadn't interned those Americans? Would the civil war had the same outcome if Lincoln hadn't violated the constitution?

i really am not convinced by the utility of any of the examples where the US did decide that the "ends justify the means". in fact, everything i have seen shows that everytime we do something this gray for short-term tactical benefit, it tends to blowback strategically. at best, it contributes very little to the fight. for the life of me, i cannot think of a single example where the life and death of the republic DEPENDED on our side doing something that either violated the constitution or was grossly injust.

however, i do recall countless times where we have paid more for following our beliefs, but the price we pay, while harsh, is not unpayable.

I'm not saying we need to be as barbarous as our enemy, but I have never seen a lamb whip a lion.

when the lamb has total command of sea, land, air, space, and cyberspace...yeah...i'd bet on the lamb.

like i said, if the nazis or commies or the imperial japanese couldn't force the US to "pull out all the stops", i fail to see how some raggedy-arse terrorists armed with AK-47s and homemade explosives will.

some day, perhaps, we will have an enemy that may force us to it-- but that time is definitely not now.

[Dreadnought]

Man, I thought after being here for some time I have come close to seeing a good amount of everything. Was I ever wrong, there are some truelly ****ed up people here brain wise on the WAB. Sheesh, where do they come from.

*Has zero to do with Blues's thread I promise.)

[bfng3569]

n

7thsf,

when the lamb has total command of sea, land, air, space, and cyberspace...yeah...i'd bet on the lamb.

like i said, if the nazis or commies or the imperial japanese couldn't force the US to "pull out all the stops", i fail to see how some raggedy-arse terrorists armed with AK-47s and homemade explosives will.

some day, perhaps, we will have an enemy that may force us to it-- but that time is definitely not now.

When the lamb has control of the Air, land and see, but not the will to enforce it, what good is the control?

as far as the Nazis and Japanese not forcing us to 'pull out all the stops', what do you call two nuclear detonations on civilian populus, plus the designed, intended, and willfull choice to fire bomb and utterly burn to the ground how many japanese cities? (witch accounted for how many more civilian deaths than Hiroshima and Nagasaki?)

[astralis]

bfng,

When the lamb has control of the Air, land and see, but not the will to enforce it, what good is the control?

considering we've been fighting in afghanistan for almost longer than we've fought the civil war and WWII combined, i don't think "will" is a question.

as far as the Nazis and Japanese not forcing us to 'pull out all the stops', what do you call two nuclear detonations on civilian populus, plus the designed, intended, and willfull choice to fire bomb and utterly burn to the ground how many japanese cities? (witch accounted for how many more civilian deaths than Hiroshima and Nagasaki?)

that's definitely not all the stops. if the US truly intended to, we could have slaughtered both nations to the last man. US industrial capacity was just coming into its own by late 1944-1945. had we truly pulled out all the stops, we wouldn't bothered to even think about "operation downfall"- why invade japan and take horrendous losses when we could have easily surround the island and release chemical/biological/nuclear weapons until every last man, woman, and child was dead?

as for matching the nazis and the japanese in barbarity, well, bad as the internment camps were, they weren't death camps or biological experimentation centers.

[Dreadnought]

I call it saving lives. Germany was right behind us if not beside us in focusing on Atomic weapons. If Hitler shared many things with the Japanese when Belin fell (U-234) comes to mind. Whats to say they would not have used it on us. Sorry about their luck, we beat them to the punch, and what a punch it was.

[astralis]

dreadnought,

Germany was right behind us if not beside us in focusing on Atomic weapons.

no, they weren't. the german atomic weapons program died in late 1941-early 1942. by late 1942 it had been relegated to a long-term research project. the japanese would have learned squat.

more threatening was the japanese intention to release biological agents via balloon to the US. but if they tried that, then the nation of japan would have literally been wiped out. even the japanese war planners saw as much and tried to tamp it down.

[zraver]

[QUOTE=7thsfsniper;667534]

Absolutely. So we must wonder if the actions of our forefathers damaged us or saved us. They say the son pays for the sins of the father. Are we paying now for those things?

Look at our centuries long tradition of only extending "all men are created equal" to WASPs. When the new United States failed to adress slavery it condemmed millions to servitude, cost the lives of 630,000 Americans and consigned the better part of 45 million people to the Ghetto today. So ya, the sins due come due in time. The internment was just a facet of racism.

Would WWII been any different if FDR hadn't interned those Americans? Would the civil war had the same outcome if Lincoln hadn't violated the constitution?

No, the Nisei proved just how damn American they were.

I'm not saying we need to be as barbarous as our enemy, but I have never seen a lamb whip a lion.

Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Mandela (after he renounced violence), Brown (in brown v Board of education), the lamb can win.

I think one day we will have to decide to succumb or pull out the stops.

If we pull out all the stops i think we will succumb.

bfng3569,

When the lamb has control of the Air, land and see, but not the will to enforce it, what good is the control?

we are using it.

as far as the Nazis and Japanese not forcing us to 'pull out all the stops', what do you call two nuclear detonations on civilian populus, plus the designed, intended, and willfull choice to fire bomb and utterly burn to the ground how many japanese cities? (witch accounted for how many more civilian deaths than Hiroshima and Nagasaki?)

Did we use poison gas, did we torture prisoners to reveal intel? We fought a savage war, but we could have been much worse. The Japanese and Germans did both those things.

[gunnut]

had we truly pulled out all the stops, we wouldn't bothered to even think about "operation downfall"- why invade japan and take horrendous losses when we could have easily surround the island and release chemical/biological/nuclear weapons until every last man, woman, and child was dead?

That was Operation Downfall. Take over the south island of Kyushu, convert it into a giant air base, transfer the 8th and 9th airforce over from Europe, add 14th and 20th airforce already in theater, firebomb Japanese cities until nothing was left. There was a poison gas campaign being organized too. Meanwhile, the interisland water ways were mined. Harbors were being shelled by our battleships. Coastal cities and villages were strafed by carrier planes. The only reason for the land component was to secure the air base. Other islands weren't big enough for the army air force.

Thank god for the atomic bombs and the wise emperor who saw the writings on the wall.

as for matching the nazis and the japanese in barbarity, well, bad as the internment camps were, they weren't death camps or biological experimentation centers.

We would never treat our "guests" that way in the "hospitality centers." )

[Dreadnought]

dreadnought,



no, they weren't. the german atomic weapons program died in late 1941-early 1942. by late 1942 it had been relegated to a long-term research project. the japanese would have learned squat.

more threatening was the japanese intention to release biological agents via balloon to the US. but if they tried that, then the nation of japan would have literally been wiped out. even the japanese war planners saw as much and tried to tamp it down.

*They had already proved they could do this. Fire bomb ballons that landed I believe in a forrest in Oregon killing a 6 civilians. This was May 1945.

On This Day: Japanese WWII ?Balloon Bomb? Kills 6 in Oregon

[zraver]

There was a poison gas campaign being organized too.

source please

We would never treat our "guests" that way in the "hospitality centers." )

They were not guests, they were Americans. Based on their actions in Italy, the bravest Americans of all time.

[astralis]

gunnut,

That was Operation Downfall. Take over the south island of Kyushu, convert it into a giant air base, transfer the 8th and 9th airforce over from Europe, add 14th and 20th airforce already in theater, firebomb Japanese cities until nothing was left. There was a poison gas campaign being organized too. Meanwhile, the interisland water ways were mined. Harbors were being shelled by our battleships. Coastal cities and villages were strafed by carrier planes. The only reason for the land component was to secure the air base. Other islands weren't big enough for the army air force.

not quite. operation olympic-- partial takeover of kyushu-- was meant to establish a staging area for operation coronet, which would be a land invasion of the kanto plain. this was the Army plan, so the US could finish the war as soon as possible.

the Navy plan was to seize airbases in china, korea, and taiwan, and from there on bomb the japanese into submission or destruction. seizing those areas would have been a lot easier and cheaper than an invasion of kyushu.

regarding the gas campaign-- the US had CONSIDERED using gas, but most likely it would have never been used, as roosvelt had already affirmed a no-first use policy on gas in 1943...a good example of how the US did not go "full out" in WWII.

[gunnut]

source please

I forgot where I read it. Poison gas was considered.

They were not guests, they were Americans. Based on their actions in Italy, the bravest Americans of all time.

Dude...you need a sense of humor...