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Thread: Health Care Bill H.R. 3200 or "Obamacare"

  1. #76
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    my one big disagreement with the article is that the problems here stem from the high cost of medical bills, especially among the elderly. this is not a problem that can be completely resolved with universal healthcare- healthcare costs always exponentially increase towards the end of life regardless of the system.
    I've given it some thought. I realized that it is inevitable high medical costs come at end-of-life treatments. It doesn't matter what kind of system and what type of patients. Even a young patient seemingly healthy. If he develops some sickness or suffers some injuries, what do we do? We do everything to save him. If he dies, then all that medical bill will be "end of life" treatment.

    Think about it, after the patient dies, there will be no more "medical bills." It's the same as "it's always at the last time we look." After we find something, we don't look for it any more. Before the patient dies, we do everything we can to prolong life. We actually care about life.

    The down side about this high value on life is we develop extremely sophisticated medical procedures and drugs to prolong life. These are expensive. We always use them on patients regardless of the ability to pay. Some one has to foot the bill. Shifting to a single payer plan won't alter this fact. Medicare is a single payer plan for the old. It's not cheap.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    gunnut,

    right...with several "buts".

    first is that preventive checkups encouraged under a decent health care plan will block off higher costs down the road (with, as we discussed, the big exception being the lead-up to the end of life).

    second is the worrisome aspect of why some drugs and procedures in the US cost significantly more than their exact same counterparts throughout the industrial world. why are US drugs more costly than their canadian counterparts, for instance? this is something i'd be interested in finding out.
    The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"

    -Leo Tolstoy
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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    gunnut,

    right...with several "buts".

    first is that preventive checkups encouraged under a decent health care plan will block off higher costs down the road (with, as we discussed, the big exception being the lead-up to the end of life).
    Regular check-ups is important, I agree. But the way Obamacare does it will actually cost more money. That has to do with us as a population rather than individual. I read it in a newspaper article. Let me see if I can find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    second is the worrisome aspect of why some drugs and procedures in the US cost significantly more than their exact same counterparts throughout the industrial world. why are US drugs more costly than their canadian counterparts, for instance? this is something i'd be interested in finding out.
    Doesn't Canada subsidize their drugs? So the Canadian government is actually using tax dollars to shield the users from drug costs. Or maybe due to our patent laws and stuff that grants intellectual properties like a new drug. Large legal judgement against a drug company for unforeseen side effects like that diet drug that caused some liver failures. Costly and time consuming hurdles to clear due to FDA regulations (if the FDA cleared it, why is the drug company liable for damages?).

    The combination of the above and then some other stuff that we don't normally see probably piled on the cost of the drugs in the US.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    gunnut,

    Regular check-ups is important, I agree. But the way Obamacare does it will actually cost more money. That has to do with us as a population rather than individual. I read it in a newspaper article. Let me see if I can find it.
    basically put, any universal healthcare plan which does not change healthcare incentives for quantity vs quality of service will raise costs. unfortunately this has been demagoged by republicans (whom should be all for this) into "rationed care". the worst health care bill i can imagine is one that grants universal healthcare but keeps the incentives the same.

    Large legal judgement against a drug company for unforeseen side effects like that diet drug that caused some liver failures.
    my guess is that this and the standard of living differences account for it. however, one would think that given all the medical expenditure the US population does would cause economies of scale to make drugs a lot cheaper than they are today.
    The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"

    -Leo Tolstoy
    War and Peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    gunnut,



    basically put, any universal healthcare plan which does not change healthcare incentives for quantity vs quality of service will raise costs.
    Any system which standardises medicare rates reduces the quality of the service provided by the GP. The system becomes one of prognosis within 10 minutes. instead of one about patient history and getting diagnosis right...

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    chunder,

    Any system which standardises medicare rates reduces the quality of the service provided by the GP. The system becomes one of prognosis within 10 minutes. instead of one about patient history and getting diagnosis right...
    a better alternative, i think, would be to have doctors paid on salary vs by service. this will slow down both the impulse to throw the latest fad around AND move on to the next cash co- i mean, patient.
    The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"

    -Leo Tolstoy
    War and Peace

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    chunder,



    a better alternative, i think, would be to have doctors paid on salary vs by service. this will slow down both the impulse to throw the latest fad around AND move on to the next cash co- i mean, patient.
    My dearly beloved grandfather complained about that a lot, as did many of his generation. But thats a different age. Doctors would often forgoe the bill of a poorer person as opposed to middle or upper-class person.

    Likwise then Doctors often joined a the cult of the 'upper class' It would also determine for some a practice could be had.

    When he came back from being a Dr in a POW camp in WW2 he bought a practice on the fringe outskirts /semi rural where the lower class -as it was termed in those days lived. His father went ballistic - he had paid for him to go to the best school the state had at the time on not much (had been an officer on the Somme returned with a bullet in his leg, and pretty high up in the SA Railways logistics) and he moved out to where the client base was.

    He started 3 practices I think, on call 24/7 at the time of his retirement he handed over 10,000 patient history cards of the patients that were still alive to the guy that bought his practice. He estimates he saw around 30-40000 patients and maintained that due to the pressure to get things right, he never made money being a GP, and made it of buying and selling land.

    The nature of flat rate bulk billing is that practices push through the clients as fast as possible. The complaints that make the headlines are the mis-diagnosed ones where a GP was too ready to make a prognosis where the obvious symptoms were all that were examined. Of course, this isn't mentioned much in the media, because it really undermines the concept of affordable state reliant healthcare - in this country - as it exists. Dr's are human too, and in GP they tend to be greedy. There are plenty of exceptions to this rule, where ethics is held up, but there is enough worry to make doctor shopping a all too common occurance.

    Frankly I won't see any GP unless what he knows doesn't cover the area required (ie need to see a specialist) But in those cases I have a luxury most people don't, Instant referral, no fee, and a Medical Directory to get that referral. When I DO see a GP, I cross my fingers and Hope I get an older GP already eligible for retirement where money hopefully isn't an issue, Or someone where the money isn't likely to be a factor.... Looking at the parking lot and seeing what cars the people at the practice drive is a good determiner.

    Trying to hone in on your point here... If you had a salary, who would control that salary - the owner of the practice, the medical board, or what? See if you inhibit their earning potential, perhaps they would simply go elsewhere.
    If the owner controls it - theres still issues where the owner is also a business operator. But if GP's could be encouraged to move into different areas if that where a motivating factor to become a business owner, perhaps it could help go part of the way towards supply/demand isses.

    If the U.S were to go ahead with universal healthcare I'd tend to agree with you. When it comes to Ethics, the downfalls of human greed, and the pitfalls of trying the latest drug are cancerous.

    If you could increase the supply of GP's... then perhaps that would go a bit of a way towards less available patients per capita...

  8. #83
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Fines proposed for going without health insurance

    By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writer Ricardo Alonso-zaldivar, Associated Press Writer – 27 mins ago

    WASHINGTON – Americans would be fined up to $3,800 for failing to buy health insurance under a plan that circulated in Congress on Tuesday as divisions among Democrats undercut President Barack Obama's effort to regain traction on his health care overhaul.

    As Obama talked strategy with Democratic leaders at the White House, the one idea that most appeals to his party's liberal base lost ground in Congress. Prospects for a government-run plan to compete with private insurers sank as a leading moderate Democrat said he could no longer support the idea.

    The fast-moving developments put Obama in a box. As a candidate, he opposed fines to force individuals to buy health insurance, and he supported setting up a public insurance plan. On Tuesday, fellow Democrats publicly begged to differ on both ideas.

    Democratic congressional leaders put on a bold front as they left the White House after their meeting with the president.

    "We're re-energized; we're ready to do health care reform," said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada.

    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., insisted the public plan is still politically viable. "I believe that a public option will be essential to our passing a bill in the House of Representatives," she said.

    After a month of contentious forums, Americans were seeking specifics from the president in his speech to a joint session of Congress on Wednesday night. So were his fellow Democrats, divided on how best to solve the problem of the nation's nearly 50 million uninsured.

    The latest proposal: a ten-year, $900-billion bipartisan compromise that Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., a moderate who heads the influential Finance Committee, was trying to broker. It would guarantee coverage for nearly all Americans, regardless of medical problems.

    But the Baucus plan also includes the fines that Obama has rejected. In what appeared to be a sign of tension, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs pointedly noted that the administration had not received a copy of the plan before it leaked to lobbyists and news media Tuesday.

    The Baucus plan would require insurers to take all applicants, regardless of age or health. But smokers could be charged higher premiums. And 60-year-olds could be charged five times as much for a policy as 20-year-olds.

    How is that any different than now? Wait...the all-knowing government gets to set rates on who to charge more and who to charge less.

    Baucus said Tuesday he's trying to get agreement from a small group of bipartisan negotiators in advance of Obama's speech. "Time is running out very quickly," he said. "I made that very clear to the group."

    Some experts consider the $900-billion price tag a relative bargain because the country now spends about $2.5 trillion a year on health care. But it would require hefty fees on insurers, drug companies and others in the health care industry to help pay for it.

    I beg to differ. The $900 billion will be in addition to the $2.5 trillion, not instead of.

    Just as auto coverage is now mandatory in nearly all states, Baucus would require that all Americans get health insurance once the system is overhauled. Penalties for failing to do so would start at $750 a year for individuals and $1,500 for families. Households making more than three times the federal poverty level — about $66,000 for a family of four — would face the maximum fines. For families, it would be $3,800, and for individuals, $950.

    Baucus would offer tax credits to help pay premiums for households making up to three times the poverty level, and for small employers paying about average middle-class wages. People working for companies that offer coverage could avoid the fines by signing up.

    The fines pose a dilemma for Obama. As a candidate, the president campaigned hard against making health insurance a requirement, and fining people for not getting it.

    "Punishing families who can't afford health care to begin with just doesn't make sense," he said during his party's primaries. At the time, he proposed mandatory insurance only for children.

    White House officials have since backed away somewhat from Obama's opposition to mandated coverage for all, but there's no indication that Obama would support fines.

    One idea that Obama championed during and since the campaign — a government insurance option — appeared to be sinking fast.

    House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., told reporters a Medicare-like plan for middle-class Americans and their families isn't an essential part of legislation for him. Hoyer's comments came shortly after a key Democratic moderate said he could no longer back a bill that includes a new government plan.

    The fast-moving developments left liberals in a quandary. They've drawn a line, saying they won't vote for legislation if it doesn't include a public plan to compete with private insurance companies and force them to lower costs.

    Rep. Mike Ross, D-Ark., who once supported a public option, said Tuesday that after hearing from constituents during the August recess, he's changed his mind.

    "If House leadership presents a final bill that contains a government-run public option, I will oppose it," Ross said.

    House Democrats are considering a fallback: using the public plan as a last resort if after a few years the insurance industry has failed to curb costs.

    Obama's commitment to a public plan has been in question and lawmakers hoped his speech to Congress would make his position on that clear.

    Baucus is calling for nonprofit co-ops to compete in the marketplace instead of a public plan.

    An 18-page summary of the Baucus proposal was obtained by The Associated Press. The complex plan would make dozens of changes in the health care system, many of them contentious. For example, it includes new fees on insurers, drug companies, medical device manufacturers and clinical labs.

    People working for major employers would probably not see big changes. The plan is geared to helping those who now have the hardest time getting and keeping coverage: the self-employed and small business owners.
    Fines proposed for going without health insurance - Yahoo! News

    So in order to provide those who cannot afford health insurance, we will punish them by taking away their non-existent money? I don't understand how this system works. If one pays the fine, does one get the full benefit of the "public option?" If not, then how is it different than the system we have now?
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/op...v1nXY8pnLyD1uA

    Op-Ed Columnist
    The Dime Standard

    DAVID BROOKS
    Published: September 10, 2009

    On Wednesday night, Barack Obama delivered the finest speech of his presidency. The exposition of his health care views was clear and lively. The invocation of Teddy Kennedy was moving and effective. The rumination at the end about the American character and the role of government was the clearest summary of Obama’s political philosophy that he has yet given us.

    Best of all for those of us who admire the political craft was the speech’s seductive nature and careful ambiguity. Obama threw out enough rhetorical chum to keep the liberals happy, yet he subtly staked out ground in the center on nearly every substantive issue in order to win over the moderates needed to get anything passed.

    First, Obama rested the credibility of his presidency on what you might call the Dime Standard. He was flexible about many things, but not this: “I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits — either now or in the future. Period.”

    This sound bite kills the House health care bill. That bill would add $220 billion (that’s 2.2 trillion dimes) to the deficit over the first 10 years and another $1 trillion (10 trillion dimes) to the deficit over the next 10 years.

    There is no way to get from the House bill to deficit neutrality. The president’s speech guarantees that the more moderate Senate Finance Committee bill will be the basis for the negotiations to come.

    The Dime Standard also sets off a political cascade. Since the Congressional Budget Office is the universally accepted arbiter in such matters, the Democrats have to produce a bill that the C.B.O. says is deficit-neutral, now and forever. That means there will be a seller’s market for any member of Congress, Republican or Democrat, who has a credible amendment to cut costs. It also means the Democrats will have to scale back coverage and subsidy levels to reach the fiscal targets.

    Second, the president accepted the principle of capping the tax exemption on employer-provided health benefits. The specific proposal he embraced is a backdoor and indirect version of the cap. But what’s important here is the movement and the concession on principle. Soon moderates and Republicans will produce amendments to impose a cap directly. These amendments will credibly raise revenue and reduce costs. The administration will now have no principled argument to reject them.

    Third, the president accepted the principle of tort reform to reduce the costs of defensive medicine. Once again, the specific proposal Obama mentioned is trivial. The important thing was the concession on principle. There are already amendments being drawn up to create separate malpractice courts and to otherwise reform the insane malpractice system. The president is going to have a hard time rejecting these amendments just because they might reduce campaign donations from tort lawyers to the Democratic National Committee.

    Fourth, the president introduced the public option to its own exclusive Death Panel. As Max Baucus has said, the public option cannot pass the Senate. On Wednesday, the president praised it, then effectively buried it. White House officials no longer mask their exasperation with the liberal obsession on this issue.

    Fifth, the president also buried the soak-the-rich approach. The House Ways and Means Committee came up with a plan to raise taxes on the rich to pay for health reform. That’s dead, too. Health reform will be paid for by changes within the health care system. The president underlined his resolve to cut $500 billion from Medicare and Medicaid. This is a courageous move that moderates appreciate.

    Finally, people in the administration and moderates in Congress would like to beef up the “game changers.” These are the wonky but important ideas like bundling hospital payments and increasing price transparency that might lead to a more efficient system down the road.

    In short, the president can read the polls just like anybody else. He has apparently recognized the need to pull back to get something passed. He is, characteristically, trying to rise above old divisions in search of a pragmatic sweet spot. He has opened up many opportunities for intelligent Republicans and moderate Democrats to constructively offer amendments to improve the bill and bring it closer to fiscal sanity.

    Which is not to say that this is effective health reform. The only risible parts of the speech came when Obama said that parts of the system work (they don’t; they’re unsustainable) and when he said he would be the last president to take on health care (we still await a president willing to take on fundamental perversities in the system).

    For whatever reason, President Obama has decided not to be that president. He has decided to expand the current system, not fix it. His speech on Wednesday, and the coming legislative changes, make it much more likely he will achieve his goal.

    Paul Krugman is off today.
    The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"

    -Leo Tolstoy
    War and Peace

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    Military Professional McFire's Avatar
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    First and foremost, the economy/unemployment need to be fixed. The whole health care issue should not even be on the table yet, at least not for another year or two (or three). With the high unemployment, there is far less money to pay taxes, and therefore a public healthcare program. Jobs first.
    Obama talked of the hundreds of billions in medicare fraud, why do they not go after that money NOW?
    Why the rush on the health care reform? Clinton's proposal was studied by the Ways and Means committee for over six weeks. The present 1200 page bill was attempted to be snuck through after barely being looked at over a couple of days!
    Did you notice in July Obama said we had 47 million uninsured people. In his latest speech (09 Sept), he said 30 million. So, therefore, we are already solving the problem (even with rampant unemployment!) and we haven't even done anything yet.
    The whole healthcare issue needs to be tabled for a year or so and then looked at with a fresh set of eyes. Rather than completely reinvent the wheel, what should be done is to open up all of the country's health plans to the public, with one regulatory agency. At present, each state has their own agency, so that's fifty separate agencies. That means you are limited to the healthcare programs in your state. If all of the healthcare programs in the country were available for you to choose from, the the free market would take over and the overall prices would naturally come down (drastically), since all those companies would be competing for your business. And you would get the healthcare program that YOU want/need, not the Obama/Congress crap plan. It is the individual's job to take care of his/her self, not the government's.

    Now for the Country's health plan (one big enema). For the next congressional election, vote for whoever is not currently in office. We need to completely clean out Congress. We can't possibly do any worse than what we already have. Put in a whole new congress and get term limits added. Term limits will keep people from languishing in congress for decades.
    Obama needs to go back to school and take the classes he missed, economics, math, accounting, ethics, American history, logic, civics, etc. Please don't RE-elect this clown in 2012.
    "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

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    From the Dean of Harvard Medical School, via Greg Mankiw:

    Health care reform: without a correct diagnosis, there is no cure

    Jeffrey S. Flier

    Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts, USA

    Published September 10, 2009

    A persistent headache is a symptom, but the underlying cause can be anything from a migraine to a brain tumor. Good medicine means identifying and treating the cause as well as the symptom. The same is true in health care reform.

    Though most Americans are satisfied with their own health care, they also see the need for substantial reform. Unfortunately, the well-meaning plans currently presented to Congress are the wrong therapy because they mistake the symptoms for the underlying disease. Nearly everyone agrees on the symptoms: rapidly growing health expenditures, diminished access to affordable insurance causing many to be uninsured, and inadequate quality and outcomes for the dollars spent. But what are the root causes? While there are many contributing factors, three merit special attention.

    First, there is our inefficient and inequitable system of tax-advantaged, employer-based health insurance. While the federal tax code promotes overspending by making the majority unaware of the true cost of their insurance and care, the code is grossly unfair to the self-employed, small businesses, workers who stick with a bad job because they need the coverage, and workers who lose their jobs after getting sick.

    This employer-based system arose not by thoughtful design but as an unforeseen result of price controls during World War II and subsequent tax policy. How this developed and persisted despite its unfairness and maladaptive consequences is a powerful illustration of the law of unintended consequences and the fact that government can take six decades or more to fix its obvious mistakes.

    Second, in health care as in other markets, real progress depends on innovation. Yet health care markets rarely conduct successful experiments with new ways of paying for and organizing health care delivery. Why? Although health care markets have some unique attributes, these are not the explanation for lack of successful innovation. Rather, health insurance markets suffer from overregulation, which limits innovation in both insurance and new ways of delivering medical care.

    Third, we have Medicaid and Medicare. These enormous federal programs address critical needs by delivering health care to the poor, the disabled, and the elderly. These programs pay providers by administrative pricing formulas that are well documented to promote both overuse and underuse of appropriate care, have led to rising expenditures decoupled from better health, and obligate massive future deficits that everyone agrees are unsustainable. They are also rife with fraud and abuse.

    And yet the current political debate and the several and incomplete versions of “reform” proposals do little to address these core problems. Proposals such as those that would create a new public insurance program, for example, would likely magnify them and create a new generation of problems that will be as difficult to fix as Medicare has proven to be.

    Why does the current set of reforms fall short? One reason is that all changes must pass through the political process. For example, any effort at Medicare reform rapidly morphs into a struggle for influence between insurers and pharmaceutical companies, big-city academic health centers and hospitals in rural areas, specialists and primary care providers, federal and state governments, and on down the line. Sadly, innovators — and all too often patients — get lost in these power struggles. Any reform effort that fails to correct the acknowledged fiscal and organizational flaws of Medicare and Medicaid while extending the political gridlock that attends it to a broader segment of the health care system is doomed to failure.

    Some have offered novel approaches to “payment reform,” but none of these can realistically claim to both increase quality and reduce costs, while being acceptable to Congress. One proposal would create a new executive branch commission to propose changes to Medicare benefits and price controls that Congress could only override with a supermajority vote. While such an experiment might have the potential to reduce political gridlock, it would centralize power in a manner that seems exceptionally risky for a field that accounts for one-sixth of our economy and affects the lives of hundreds of millions of people. I anticipate many new advances in diagnostics, therapeutics, and devices over the coming decades. Optimal development and application of these will flow from a decentralized and innovative health care market and will be suppressed by a system that relies on politics and an all-powerful commission.

    Some have proposed that comprehensive reform must be achieved quickly, capitalizing on a sense of crisis. I see unacceptable risks to this approach. Instead of achieving a far-reaching and necessary solution for our economy and the nation’s health, the necessity of pleasing enough special interests to get a bill passed will exacerbate our long-term crisis of cost and access. Who can tell what deals within a thousand-page bill that few, apart from lobbyists, have read will influence the state of health care for decades to come?

    Now that a vote on health care reform will not occur until at least the fall, we should seize this opportunity by stepping back, making the right diagnosis, and then applying therapies that address the underlying disease. Here are a few ideas, based on the diagnoses discussed above, that may work. As with any therapy, these should be introduced as pilot programs, to be extended only if data reveal the desired outcomes. While such an approach will not fulfill the wish to produce a dramatic cure through a single stroke of legislation, it may avoid the pitfalls of the latter approach and have a greater likelihood of reducing the number of uninsured while controlling costs and enhancing outcomes. I propose this without any relationship to the partisan politics of the day that substitutes slogans and misinformation on both sides for meaningful analysis.

    First, make the tax shelter for health insurance, currently limited to employers, independent of employment. This single, and morally imperative, step would enable the uninsured to use tax-sheltered money to buy health insurance for themselves while permitting insured employees, who are currently limited to a few employer-selected health insurance choices, to become more central in decision making.

    Second, identify and eliminate the many barriers to entry and innovation in the health care and insurance marketplace. Eliminating what are often hidden barriers to competition will encourage entrepreneurs to offer lower-cost ways of financing and delivering health care, approaches that will deliver greater health care value for the dollars spent.

    Third, make a serious effort, despite the context of widespread political demagoguery, toward deeply reforming Medicare and Medicaid. As one of many possible examples, try giving some Medicare and Medicaid enrollees earned income credits so they can make cost-conscious decisions among competing health plans. The sicker and less affluent should receive larger transfers, so they can buy adequate coverage. Among other benefits, such an experiment could break the logjam in payment reform and reliance on fee for service and centralized price controls.

    Reducing rather than increasing the role of politics in health care decisions, while providing assistance for those in need, these pilot therapies would have the salutary effect of placing patients and innovators in a more central role as we determine the future of health care in America. And we would then, at last, be able to align the treatment with the disease, a fundamental principle of responsible medicine.

    Addendum. I coauthored an article on health care reform and its underlying issues in 1994, and although it was written fifteen years ago, some of the concepts within this article may be relevant today (1). In addition, a recent article in the Atlantic magazine addresses key issues underlying this discussion that I find quite compelling but could not address due to considerations of length (2).

    References
    Flier, J.S., Maratos-Flier, E. 1994. Health care reform: a free market perspective. Diabetes Reviews. 2:359-367. http://ecommons.med.harvard.edu/ec_r...r_Fall1994.pdf .
    Goldhill, D. 2009. How American health care killed my father.The Atlantic. How American Health Care Killed My Father - The Atlantic (September 2009) .
    Journal of Clinical Investigation -- Health care reform: without a correct diagnosis, there is no cure
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    Apparently the "new improved" version was introduced by Pelosi yesterday, now sitting at 1,990 pages.

    Cost is ~$2 Million per word.

    Expect another 800 pages or so in managers amendments next week followed by a vote in 3 days.

    Amazing.

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    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    Expect another 800 pages or so in managers amendments next week followed by a vote in 3 days.
    At how much a word?
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    At how much a word?
    Dunno, they haven't trotted it out yet.

    Apparently Pelosi came up with a novel new way to secure the votes from Hawaii.

    How, you may ask?

    Hawaii is exempt from the new bill.

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