GM (Government Motors) Closes Pontiac and Saturn.

**Maxor** · 28 Apr 09, 00:12

I'm sure you all have seen the news, but really closing entire divisions especially these two which actually have a loyal following amoung younger buyers seems stupid to me. Why not kill the US side of Buick, and GMC, or combine the two?

Its as though the is intended to be no US flagged car companies within the next 20 years?

Why not let GM go into bankruptcy protection to renegoaite contracts?

**gunnut** · 28 Apr 09, 00:21

Just the thread I was looking for...

Monday, April 27, 2009
Poll: Americans favor automaker bankruptcy

Gordon Trowbridge / The Detroit News

Washington -- Americans see automaker bankruptcies as a good thing for the industry by a 2-to-1 margin, according to a new poll released today.

The survey from the Washington Post and ABC News also highlights the political difficulties for the Obama administration in supporting General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC: Fifty-three percent of those surveyed disapproved of President Barack Obama's performance on the auto issue, the lone topic of 13 tested in the poll for which Obama received negative ratings by more than half of voters.

Asked about the impact of bankruptcy by one or more of the Detroit carmakers, 43 percent said such a filing would be good for the auto industry, to just 21 percent who said that would be a bad thing. Thirty percent said bankruptcies would be good for the overall U.S. economy, while 27 percent considered it a bad thing; 38 percent said it wouldn't make much difference.

The automakers and their allies in Washington have said bankruptcy would be damaging in part because consumers would be less likely to buy from a company in a bankruptcy proceeding. But just 25 percent of those polled in the Post-ABC survey said they would be less likely to buy a car from a bankrupt carmaker. Sixty-five percent said bankruptcy would make no difference, and surprisingly, 10 percent said they would actually be more likely to buy a car from a company in bankruptcy.

The Washington Post-ABC News survey of 1,072 adults was conducted April 21-24, and has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

Poll: Americans favor automaker bankruptcy | detnews.com | The Detroit News

I don't understand the reason to keep Buick at all. Caddy for upscale customers; GMC for trucks; Chevy for everything else. Those are all GM needs.

Japanese companies were running a single label for years until Honda came out with Acura for their premium division. Then Toyota and Nissan followed with Lexus and Infiniti. Of the big 3 from Japan, only Toyota has a 3rd brand, Scion, catered to young buyers (similar to Saturn when it first came out).

**zraver** · 28 Apr 09, 00:54

bahh... Pontiac had better styling than Chevy. Close Buick and Saturn, keep Pontiac

**captain** · 28 Apr 09, 00:59

The demise of GM is not good news and the U.S. financial upheaval has far reaching consequences.

In South Australia we have General Motors Holden and they are one of the biggest employers in the state.
Holden have already reduced the labour force from 3 shifts down to 2 and that may be reduced back to one.

GMH produces the Holden Commodore and exports a left hand drive version of the Commodore SS to the U.S., rebadged and marketed as the Pontiac G8.

Holden Vehicles are also exported to the Middle East.

If S.A. and Australia was to loose was to loose GMH the blow to the economy would be huge.

The irony is, GMH is and has been since the 1950's a very profitable car maker.

Cheers (not much):(

**zraver** · 28 Apr 09, 01:01

Originally Posted by captain

The demise of GM is not good news and the U.S. financial upheaval has far reaching consequences.

In South Australia we have General Motors Holden and they are one of the biggest employers in the state.
Holden have already reduced the labour force from 3 shifts down to 2 and that may be reduced back to one.

GMH produces the Holden Commodore and exports a left hand drive version of the Commodore SS to the U.S., rebadged and marketed as the Pontiac G8.

Holden Vehicles are also exported to the Middle East.

If S.A. and Australia was to loose was to loose GMH the blow to the economy would be huge.

The irony is, GMH is and has been since the 1950's a very profitable car maker.

Cheers (not much):(

I think its only affecting American brands. A lot of GM plants overseas are profitable, its the bloated American operations and the drastic slash in car sales that is killing them. The damn unions would rather be on unemployment than work for what Toyota and Nissan are paying their American workers.

**chakos** · 28 Apr 09, 01:13

Originally Posted by captain

GMH produces the Holden Commodore and exports a left hand drive version of the Commodore SS to the U.S., rebadged and marketed as the Pontiac G8.

They also slightly detune them and install softer suspension... barbarians

**zraver** · 28 Apr 09, 01:27

Originally Posted by chakos

They also slightly detune them and install softer suspension... barbarians

The US version the G8 GXP is an LS3 powered 400+hp car with a race ready suspencion! What the hell are your versions doing?

**gunnut** · 28 Apr 09, 01:34

I'm sure Pontiac Holden will be there as long as it's profitable.

GM is reducing brands because the cars are essentially the same. They are competing for the same customers. It doesn't make sense to increase the cost of a car by making different badges for them and supporting a separate dealer network.

Look at how lean Honda and Nissan's line-ups are. You have the basic passenger cars in Honda and Nissan division. If you want luxury models, move up to the Acura or Infiniti division. There are no models that exist in both divisions at the same time.

Saturn was a good idea, until the unions ruined it. Now it's just another bland GM label. The Saturn Outlook is the same car as the Buick Enclave and the GMC Acadia. Why make the same car 3 times?

**Ironduke** · 28 Apr 09, 01:58

Originally Posted by Maxor

I'm sure you all have seen the news, but really closing entire divisions especially these two which actually have a loyal following amoung younger buyers seems stupid to me. Why not kill the US side of Buick, and GMC, or combine the two?

Its as though the is intended to be no US flagged car companies within the next 20 years?

Why not let GM go into bankruptcy protection to renegoaite contracts?

Heh, it's been said that US industry in general has focused too much on the short-term, whereas the Japanese look at the long-term. Using that stereotype, it seems only appropriate that GM would close Pontiac (its better long-term investment) vs. Buick (aimed at old people).

I'm sure they'll just re-badge the popular Pontiac models as Chevrolets... with the Impala and Malibu Chevy designs were tending toward Pontiac's. Oldsmobile was essentially the same as Buick, they merged, but if they folded Buick there would be nowhere for those models to go without diluting their other brands.

So, Chevrolet (normal and sportier cars), Buick (aimed at an older population), GMC (utility trucks and vehicles), Cadillac (luxury). I've owned two Pontiacs so I'm sad to see it go, but if they just re-badge the popular models as Chevys nothing has really changed.

GM needs to clear up the morass and clearly define the meaning of each car brand.

**Blue** · 28 Apr 09, 02:09

Originally Posted by zraver

I think its only affecting American brands. A lot of GM plants overseas are profitable, its the bloated American operations and the drastic slash in car sales that is killing them. The damn unions would rather be on unemployment than work for what Toyota and Nissan are paying their American workers.

Amen to that Z!!!! Well put!!

**zraver** · 28 Apr 09, 02:15

Originally Posted by gunnut

Look at how lean Honda and Nissan's line-ups are. You have the basic passenger cars in Honda and Nissan division. If you want luxury models, move up to the Acura or Infiniti division. There are no models that exist in both divisions at the same time.

Not universally true by any means. Fo example the G35 coupe and the 350Z were functionally identical. Same engine, chassis, body lines etc. Only the G35 was a 2+2 and the 350 was kept as a true sports car. The G35 sedan was basically a rebadged and upscaled Maxima. Same goes for the Acura TSX its an upscaled Accord.

One of the reasons the Japanese were able to make the swing up into the luxury car market was they built a huge fan base. At least where I live GM is throwing that away by ditching Pontiac. Buicks and Chevy's are excpeting the trucks and the Cobalt old people cars. If your younger and you drive a GM product that can't go offroad you drive a Pontiac usually a G6 or a Vibe. While the Vibe is merely a rebaged/reskinned Toyota Matrix its still a Pontiac in that any good memories it generates will be applied first to Pontiac. Now that GM finally has a division that is doing well with the just getting started (or in my case gettign restarted crowd) why abandon them to another company? If we wanted bland Chevy styling we would have bought Chevy.

**JLaw4591** · 28 Apr 09, 02:18

I'm going to really miss the G8. That's one of my dream cars.

The decision made sense, however. Buick is extremely profitable and popular in China, the world's fastest growing car market. Getting rid of that would be suicide. Buick has had a strong resurgence in the US as well. it is one of GM's most profitable brands and has helped GM's quality reputation lately by placing among Toyota, lexus and other bigger names in the latest reliability/quality surveys.
GMC has a very high profit margin. That's what keeps them around. It doesn't make business sense to keep pontiac and get rid of Buick and GMC.
Pontiac, unfortunately, just didn't make money. The reason? Bad management IMO. For every stellar car(G8, Solstice) they had they also sold a lame vehicle with it(G5, G3, Aztek). Had they been marketed properly, they'd still be around. I am convinced of this. As it is, the previous management was too incompetent to guarantee the brand a future.

**chakos** · 28 Apr 09, 02:20

Originally Posted by zraver

The US version the G8 GXP is an LS3 powered 400+hp car with a race ready suspencion! What the hell are your versions doing?

Did some more research and realised with the current model you do get the 400hp Gen4 6L engine. Im assuming thats the same as the LS3 your talking about but i also am certain you do get a slightly detuned suspension.

Mind you we consider the SS as a slightly beefy family car. Those that want something a little more exciting go for the Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) Clubsport R8 or if your a complete nutter and need to get your kiddies to school at forumla 1 speeds then HSV has brought out this baby

HSV W427

Just when you thought we Aussies whern't mad enough

)

**Blue** · 28 Apr 09, 02:22

Originally Posted by zraver

Not universally true by any means. Fo example the G35 coupe and the 350Z were functionally identical. Same engine, chassis, body lines etc. Only the G35 was a 2+2 and the 350 was kept as a true sports car. The G35 sedan was basically a rebadged and upscaled Maxima. Same goes for the Acura TSX its an upscaled Accord.

Z's on the money here GN. The japanese big 3 learned this from the American big 3. Change the headlights and tailights and call it better than the other. Charge more $$ for the same thing........Step right up suckers! Mr. Barnum has something you should see!!!

**Blue** · 28 Apr 09, 02:32

Originally Posted by chakos

Did some more research and realised with the current model you do get the 400hp Gen4 6L engine. Im assuming thats the same as the LS3 your talking about but i also am certain you do get a slightly detuned suspension.

Mind you we consider the SS as a slightly beefy family car. Those that want something a little more exciting go for the Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) Clubsport R8 or if your a complete nutter and need to get your kiddies to school at forumla 1 speeds then HSV has brought out this baby

HSV W427

Just when you thought we Aussies whern't mad enough

)

502 hp!!! Thats freakin awesome!!!

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