View Poll Results: Has your view of Bush improved since his departure?

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  • Yes

    42 35.90%
  • No

    75 64.10%
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Thread: Has your view of Bush improved since his departure?

  1. #31
    Muganga Military Professional JOgershok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim52 View Post
    This is the one of most absurd justifications for the Iraq war and in my opinion is the most baseless, yet for some reason it seems to get the traction in the court of public opinion.

    Consider if you will that if the US based its justification to go to war on whether or not a country ignored or refused to abide UN resolutions we would most likely be engaged in combat with half the member nations of the UN, ourselves included.
    Consider this. The UN had previously moved against him when he invaded Kuwait. BIG DIFFERENCE?

    It is what it is, justification for the war in Iraq. Examine the Food For Oil scam while you are at it too.
    J. J. Ogershok, Jr.

  2. #32
    Muganga Military Professional JOgershok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sambansal View Post
    I supported him(Bush) then and I do now. The only trouble is with the vast majority of my countrymen who loved Obama during campaign & still do. Worst is all the people all over the world. He is a socialistic (to say it mildly) person who wants to tax and spend and bring everybody at the same level. Not so bad. But when I see him posturing during the G20 meeting, it all appears politicking. He does not seem to have the backbone or the balls Bush had to stand his ground. He changes at the wind's direction of flow. Does he have any firm conviction other than be a good politician? Bush was not like that. He stood his ground, no matter what. My respect for him(Bush) goes higher. But alas we got what we craved for, an Obama. I am sure he will degenerate us to not reckoning who we were and who we are now.

    To me there was nothing wrong with Bush. What I do not understand is why we hated him so much and love this inexperienced rhetorical person so much? There must be something seriously wrong with us.

    Have a great day

    Dr Sam Bansal
    I call them sheep.
    J. J. Ogershok, Jr.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim52 View Post
    This is the one of most absurd justifications for the Iraq war and in my opinion is the most baseless, yet for some reason it seems to get the traction in the court of public opinion.

    Consider if you will that if the US based its justification to go to war on whether or not a country ignored or refused to abide UN resolutions we would most likely be engaged in combat with half the member nations of the UN, ourselves included.
    Can you name another country that has been the subject and violator of 17 UNSCRs (my guess is that Israel might be the only country to be close, although I don't think that they'll have the the history of UNSCR violations that Saddam managed)? Don't get me wrong, the US (or any other nation) isn't going to do the bidding of the UN when it's not convenient, but you're moving the goal posts here.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

  4. #34
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOgershok View Post
    Bad question. It was mostly positive and has not changed.
    It doesn't ask if views were favorable or not begin with -- wasn't really what I was trying to ask though.

  5. #35
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    Good Ridens

    Well let’s see:

    "smokem-out" Bin Laden
    Iraq war (civilian & military deaths)
    Pullout of 1972 ABM treaty
    Treatment of Vets, vet administration
    Signing statements
    Finance meltdown and TARP pressure that was un-needed
    National debt
    PNAC’ers in his cabinet
    Green light for Gaza
    Almost bought 20 ABL 747$
    Incorrect response to 911 (with war)
    Torture
    Abu Ghraib
    Walkout of Kyoto
    AWAL for his National Guard service

    On and on…


    He’ll go down as one of our worst (that man was a piece a ~!@#).

    Good bye and Good Ridens

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by obrescia View Post
    Walkout of Kyoto
    AWAL for his National Guard service
    We'll stick with some less controversial things. Can you tell me the successes of Kyoto and why our pullout was a failure (while dubious, we'll leave the premise of human driven global warming alone and just assume that it's correct)?

    Mary Mapes got fired and CBS chastised for their failure in the Bush AWOL controversy for producing non-authenticated documents that were fabrications. So while your story's wrong here, what does this even have to do with his Presidency?
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shek View Post
    We'll stick with some less controversial things. Can you tell me the successes of Kyoto and why our pullout was a failure (while dubious, we'll leave the premise of human driven global warming alone and just assume that it's correct)?

    Mary Mapes got fired and CBS chastised for their failure in the Bush AWOL controversy for producing non-authenticated documents that were fabrications. So while your story's wrong here, what does this even have to do with his Presidency?
    It could be argued Kyoto failed for the same reason as the League of Nations. We pulled out.

  8. #38
    Muganga Military Professional JOgershok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obrescia View Post
    Well let’s see:

    "smokem-out" Bin Laden
    Iraq war (civilian & military deaths)
    Pullout of 1972 ABM treaty
    Treatment of Vets, vet administration
    Signing statements
    Finance meltdown and TARP pressure that was un-needed
    National debt
    PNAC’ers in his cabinet
    Green light for Gaza
    Almost bought 20 ABL 747$
    Incorrect response to 911 (with war)
    Torture
    Abu Ghraib
    Walkout of Kyoto
    AWAL for his National Guard service

    On and on…


    He’ll go down as one of our worst (that man was a piece a ~!@#).

    Good bye and Good Ridens
    So your opinion has not changed?
    J. J. Ogershok, Jr.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOgershok View Post
    So your opinion has not changed?
    LOL i guess not...sorry.

    I don’t see the venture in ignoring all the stuff that happened under Bush. I would have preferred any republican to what Bush pulled. A republican he was not.

  10. #40
    Senior Contributor tim52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sambansal View Post
    He (Bush) stood his ground, no matter what. To me there was nothing wrong with Bush.
    IMHO the fact that Bush stood his ground in the face of mounting evidence that the decision to invade Iraq was ill conceived, poorly planned and based on flawed assumptions is of little consequence.

    From the outset Bush and his administration cherry picked data and assertions that strengthened their case for the invasion of Iraq and shutout any countervailing points of view or data that would diminish that position. Even when information came from within the US intelligence agencies and knowledgeable experts on the area that Saddam had nothing to do with the attacks of 9/11, the Bush Administration pushed forward with their agenda to invade.

    Even after the successful defeat of Saddam’s military forces, the poor planning of the part of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by failing to provide adequate security for the civilian population and key infrastructure and thereby letting al Qaeda and insurgent elements establish themselves in the country, which has directly or indirectly accounted for additional deaths of American service men and women and Iraqi civilians.

    In closing let me make one thing perfectly clear, I’m not some bleeding heart liberal that believes that if only we could all just join hands and sing Kum Ba Ya the world would be a better place. I supported Bush’s decision to invade Afghanistan and still do today, however the failure to deal decisively with bin Laden and al Qaeda in Afghanistan, will I’m afraid, haunt us and the rest of the world for many years to come.
    Buy the ticket, take the ride.

  11. #41
    Muganga Military Professional JOgershok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim52 View Post
    Even after the successful defeat of Saddam’s military forces, the poor planning of the part of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by failing to provide adequate security for the civilian population and key infrastructure and thereby letting al Qaeda and insurgent elements establish themselves in the country, which has directly or indirectly accounted for additional deaths of American service men and women and Iraqi civilians.

    In closing let me make one thing perfectly clear, I’m not some bleeding heart liberal that believes that if only we could all just join hands and sing Kum Ba Ya the world would be a better place. I supported Bush’s decision to invade Afghanistan and still do today, however the failure to deal decisively with bin Laden and al Qaeda in Afghanistan, will I’m afraid, haunt us and the rest of the world for many years to come.
    De-Baathafication was Paul BREMMER's mistake but the administration went along with it. The guys in SF kicked about it without success.

    I think that the CIA was "first-in." That was not the massive force required to encircle al Qaeda. I have no problem saying that too was a mistake.
    J. J. Ogershok, Jr.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
    It could be argued Kyoto failed for the same reason as the League of Nations. We pulled out.
    Our emissions per capita has been decreasing. Other countries that were part of Kyoto missed their goals. Their actions are independent of ours and so that's not a sufficient excuse in this case.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

  13. #43
    Senior Contributor tim52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOgershok View Post
    Consider this. The UN had previously moved against him when he invaded Kuwait. BIG DIFFERENCE?
    I would have to say yes, considering it was the invasion of Kuwait, a sovereign nation and the threat posed to Saudi Arabia that was the impetus for the first gulf war. No one was willing to cede control of that much of the world’s oil supply to any one country.

    In 2003 Iraq was contained and manageable. Was Saddam a tyrant and despot, yes without a doubt, did he engage in crimes against humanity, again yes. But those have never been sufficient justification for war. The charge that Saddam was developing WMDs was the main Casus belli used by the administration. But when it was later found that there were no WMDs, Bush and company floated out human rights violations, the need to fight al Queda “over there” and a host of other false flags to distract and deceive the American public into supporting the war.

    In the meantime the Taliban was able to reconstitute itself and al Queda further spread its tentacles into the Muslim world; a disaster of epic proportions.
    Last edited by tim52; 10 Apr 09, at 21:23.
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  14. #44
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    Remember “yellow cake?”

    Quote Originally Posted by tim52 View Post
    IMHO the fact that Bush stood his ground in the face of mounting evidence that the decision to invade Iraq was ill conceived, poorly planned and based on flawed assumptions is of little consequence.

    From the outset Bush and his administration cherry picked data and assertions that strengthened their case for the invasion of Iraq and shutout any countervailing points of view or data that would diminish that position. Even when information came from within the US intelligence agencies and knowledgeable experts on the area that Saddam had nothing to do with the attacks of 9/11, the Bush Administration pushed forward with their agenda to invade.

    Even after the successful defeat of Saddam’s military forces, the poor planning of the part of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by failing to provide adequate security for the civilian population and key infrastructure and thereby letting al Qaeda and insurgent elements establish themselves in the country, which has directly or indirectly accounted for additional deaths of American service men and women and Iraqi civilians.

    In closing let me make one thing perfectly clear, I’m not some bleeding heart liberal that believes that if only we could all just join hands and sing Kum Ba Ya the world would be a better place. I supported Bush’s decision to invade Afghanistan and still do today, however the failure to deal decisively with bin Laden and al Qaeda in Afghanistan, will I’m afraid, haunt us and the rest of the world for many years to come.
    I understand people with you point of view.

    There are huge gaping holes in the augment however.

    The Bush response with a “war” on terror is a blunder on a fundamental level:

    a) Al Qaeda is a deadly criminal conspiracy. But it is a criminal enterprise by definition. Predator drones and combat troops in and over Sicily will not stop the Mafia. Neither will it stop Al Qaeda. International and coordinated policing is the proper response to dismantle an international criminal enterprise. Not “War” and Invasions. Where is bin laden? Afghanistan will fare no better. Complete stupidly.


    b) We don’t have the right to kill innocent people (regardless of intent) in Iraq (or Afghanistan) whatever the reason – we’ll be perceived as effectively no different that the innocent killed in the towers. What's the dealth toll in Iraq? Again - complete stupidly.

    For those perplexed or puzzled by my tone regarding militaristic solutions for all manner of problems either real, perceived or desired, I (again) call your attention to the names signed onto this letter (1) And the unfortunate passages (2) (3).

    This is whole thing is over with.

    Fix Pakistan and be done with it.

    -
    (1) http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm
    (2) http://www.newamericancentury.org/Re...asDefenses.pdf (section ‘V’).
    (3) http://www.newamericancentury.org/Re...asDefenses.pdf (pg 51)

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by obrescia View Post
    We don’t have the right to kill innocent people (regardless of intent) in Iraq (or Afghanistan) whatever the reason – we’ll be perceived as effectively no different that the innocent killed in the towers. What's the dealth toll in Iraq? Again - complete stupidly.
    This is a red herring and if not trolling, then right at the edge. There's plenty of valid reasons to argue against the strategy taken against OIF and OEF that one needn't resort to this. Reduce the hyperbole.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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