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Reply With QuoteYes. Because i am not saying i don't like the foreign policy. What i am saying is that i don't understand it and i don't like the way that nations that don't fully subscribe to it are being berated.
So you are saying that you don't know what our basic FP is, but you don't like it anyway? Am I misreading you?Originally Posted by Trooth
-dale
Yes. Because i am not saying i don't like the foreign policy. What i am saying is that i don't understand it and i don't like the way that nations that don't fully subscribe to it are being berated.
What nations are being berated? The nature of the criticism will tell you the part of the policy you do not like. The only difference between US foreign policy and most others is that GWB has said publicly, if you're fighting a tyrant for your freedom, we will help. I'm all for that.
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
We feel we need to force the opportunity for democratic governance in the Middle East. You object to this?
We feel we need to keep nutbag nations like North Korea and Iran from getting nuclear weapons. You object to this?
What is an example of such beratement as you see it, so we can discuss it.
-dale
Much of Europe is for one or the other, when not both, of these things.
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
There was the "with us or against us stuff". All the old Europe stuff, all the venom against Spain's incoming leadership, but little against the outgoing leadership that tried to deceive the spanish publci (ETA instead of AQ for 11M). There was the knee-jerk stuff that if you weren't agreeing 100% with W you were clearly supporting Saddam, or insert name of someone else unpleasant here and the obvious extension that you must agree with their killing of your own people.
I don't object to the people of the middle east having a quest for self determination and democracy, i do have conerns about it being forced onto their countries - i am not convinced that it doesn't create a hatred of its own and i am not convinced it is the best way of handling these situations. History has shown, time and again, that invaders are just that and a sizeable proportion of the population rush to fill power vaccums usng the ousting of the new, common, or occupiing enemy as their mantra.
Hopefully Iraq will prove me wrong. I hope that the new government can actually succeed and prosper, as can the people of Iraq. But we have to wait and see how it will pan out, how the first years of the alliances work out, and shakedown. We have lready seen that the warlords are still in power in Afghanistan, that the new regime exists largely in Kahbul alone.
I actually feel rather sorry for the U.S. at times. Britain used to be able to send a gunboat in and the local despot would give up, or at worst we might have to face screaming natives armed with spears. Your poor chaps have to face nuclear weapons, bio-chemical weapons, suicide bombers and all manner of other horrible things.
Mind you, despite having a huge technological edge, we still didn't manage to control the world the way we wanted to ...
Last edited by scotsboyuk; 20 Feb 05, at 04:56.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
It was a statement directed at nations thinking of harboring or supporting terroriststs, and the statement was "you are either with us, or with the terrorists". Context is key.
The Old Europe comment was accurate, if undiplomatic. France and Germany are far more concerned with building a core of power on the continent based on opposing American interests than they are in building a broad consensus that includes the favorable attitude that some of the old East Bloc nations have toward the U.S. and our current policies.
The Aznar government was guilty of thickheadedness in its insulting of the intelligence of the Spanish people, no doubt. But it did not conjure up reasons to abandon its commitments in Iraq, as the Zapatero government did.
I don't get the point of your last sentence above.
I agree it is a big risk, but it appears to be working well so far. Sometimes you have to kick in some doors to let the airs of Democracy waft in before a people can decide if they really like it or not. Clearly our Cold War Realpolitik policy of supporting our favorite Strongman had failed, so time to try something new.I don't object to the people of the middle east having a quest for self determination and democracy, i do have conerns about it being forced onto their countries - i am not convinced that it doesn't create a hatred of its own and i am not convinced it is the best way of handling these situations. History has shown, time and again, that invaders are just that and a sizeable proportion of the population rush to fill power vaccums usng the ousting of the new, common, or occupiing enemy as their mantra.
I have high hopes for both, but only time will tell. Afghanistan is doing quite well compared to where it was 4 years ago. Iraq will be doing better 4 years from now. Enthusiastic international support will be an important factor in ensuring their move forward into full and stable democracy. In other words, you don't have to like the fact that the baby is a bastard, but you'd be doing it a disservice to refuse to help it to learn to walk.Hopefully Iraq will prove me wrong. I hope that the new government can actually succeed and prosper, as can the people of Iraq. But we have to wait and see how it will pan out, how the first years of the alliances work out, and shakedown. We have lready seen that the warlords are still in power in Afghanistan, that the new regime exists largely in Kahbul alone.
-dale
I would suspect that our casualty ratios are fairly comparable to that of HMBG though.Against the stuff we have, anything less is the equivalent of charging us with spears.
But you're right in that the barbarians have the advantage over us in that they are barbarians.
-dale
The present Spanish government used the withdrawal of troops from Iraq as one of their key election pledges. The Spanish people voted for them, if they had wanted their troops to remain in Iraq then they wouldn't have voted for them. I see no reason to criticise Spain because the will of its people was exercised, after all democracy is what we are trying to bring to Iraq, isn't it?
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
They hurt the Coalition by leaving before their commitment was done. Like it or not, this is a valid criticism.
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
It's not the fact that they withdrew - that's their right and priviledge - it was the manner in which they withdrew early. It stank. Quite a contrast to the fire and balls in the statement by the Spanish envoy to the UN SC in the weeks before we invaded; when I heard her make her speech I actually applauded my TV.I like Spain. (Especially Spanish ladies.
-dale
With respect, please do not put words into my mouth. I did not use the term barbarians, nor would I. The natives who were conquered by British forces were not barbarians, many were extremely sophisticated peoples. They did what the people the U.S. currently faced are doing, opposing what they see as an aggressor. As much as I condemn terrorism and those who kill innocents, I can at least understand why they fight the West. They see the West as an aggressor intent on robbing them of their way of life and undemrining their values. We might proclaim our good intentions and our wish to improve their lives, but to many those are false promises and in many cases unwanted.
Of course I believe that terrorism should be opposed, but we should never be so arrogant as to assume that our way is always the best way. Imposing ourselves upon others might be a good short term solution, but it can often cause far more serious problems in the long run.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
Anyone who deliberately blows up women and children is a barbarian. Anyone who cuts the heads off of living humans in the name of their cause is a barbarian. You didn't call them barbarians - I did. I was comparing the body counts, not the foes.
-dale
I agree, but the end result is still the same, they left. I would have prefered that the Spanish fulfilled their obligations to the proper extent, but they did not. Instead of criticising, and possibly alienting them, I would have thought that a much better strategy would be to engage them and try and persuade them to change their minds or at the very least ask them to help the fight in other ways besides deploying troops.
"I may be drunk my dear woman, but in the morning I will be sober, and you will still be ugly." WSC
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