Thread: The Palin debate

Originally Posted by Ray

ShawnG,

I feel that there is a cultural divide between you all and us.

It's more than a feeling. It's a fact. Which makes me wonder how you can speak as though you are an expert in our culture. From what you write, I can see that you are quite knowledgeable about US values, but at the same time, you are missing a great deal of the nuances that would make you understand it.. For example, in a previous post you wrote that, because only Christians have been elected president of the US, religion and government are not separate in the US; and you went on to say that the US is in that sense no different than Islamic countries. That implies that the US creates laws respecting one religion over another, as would be the case in Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. Perhaps this will add to your understanding:

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...." Together with the Free Exercise Clause, ("...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.

The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose. The first approach is called the "separationist" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferentialist" or "accommodationist" interpretation. In separationist interpretation, the clause prohibits Congress from aiding religion in any way even if such aid is made without regard to denomination. The accommodationist interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.

My belief is that if true values are taught to one's children, then the child understand that the family comes first and then their own desires. This does not come easy. It requires immense effort on the part of the parents and their grandparents.

Spot on. But do you acknowledge the imperfectability of man in moral matters? And do you believe punishment for lapses should be lifelong suffering?

India has become or is becoming two parent income families. But thank heavens, grandparents are not in Old Age homes and instead in the ancestral homes. They make up the loss of parental guidance and they are far better.

I agree. The wisdom of age is squandered in the west. But what can we do? Mom and dad want to have their last fling.

Pilani would never be given a ticket to even contest a municipal election, let alone be a VP!

It's Palin, Ray, and well you know it.

As a pseudo emancipated person, I would say Good Luck to you all to legitimise illegitimacy as evangelist!

My quasi religious heritage somehow makes me uncomfortable!

The older the culture, the greater the moral burdens.)

When Palin gave her acceptance speech, Palin beat Obama by 2 million viewers with three less networks. She had more than 40 million viewers.

More than 40 million people see Palin speech - Forbes.com

Originally Posted by Julie

Obama only shows one side of the coin with tax breaks for middle America............ stagnate under an Obama administration, like the Carter administration did.

Thanks. I get a better and better understanding of everything on a daily basis. Thank you for the info.

PS, McCain killed it tonight. Of course dems will have criticism but that's because they only hear what they want to hear.

Originally Posted by Ray

I would love to exchange notes since I know so little about the US except for some wonderful posts here at WAB.

I would also be frank that I would not be the ideal chap to tell you of Indian culture since my upbringing is different.

My children are capable of informing you of India, I am somewhat handicapped for reasons I would like to keep private.

Thank you sir, I appreciate that.

Well, on a light note, regarding Indian culture; Do you take a mulligan on hole 17 if you shank your drive into the trees?

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by JAD_333

It's more than a feeling. It's a fact. Which makes me wonder how you can speak as though you are an expert in our culture. From what you write, I can see that you are quite knowledgeable about US values, but at the same time, you are missing a great deal of the nuances that would make you understand it.. For example, in a previous post you wrote that, because only Christians have been elected president of the US, religion and government are not separate in the US; and you went on to say that the US is in that sense no different than Islamic countries. That implies that the US creates laws respecting one religion over another, as would be the case in Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. Perhaps this will add to your understanding:

I do miss many of the nuances of the American society and the language too and of that there is no doubt. Always learning and always ready to learn and that is why I am here!

While I am no expert in your culture, I daresay I am a voracious reader and there is no end of literature available on the US and its various facets, starting from pulp (low grade novels) to serious stuff. America is to most children a 'must know' issue since a lot of hype (for the want of a better word) is made by Americans of the USA as the 'bestest, strongest and richest' nation and all that. It maybe the natural hyperbole, but it is good sell and it attracts, especially those who are not so fortunate since it allow people the luxury to 'dream' - in the same way, westerners think that the Orient is 'exotic' and the Oriental religions mystic! In the earlier days, it was not surprising to find westerners disappointed that India was not a jungle with elephants and tigers and Maharajas dotting the scene and yes, there were buildings and automobiles! )

Thus, I have read many American books and even their cultural stuff and remember, I was brought up on Dell Comics and Classics, Zane Grey and the Wild West, Burt Lancaster and John Wayne! I wonder if you remember I quoted the excellent book on the US Foreign Policy - The Ugly American. It was so reallife since I have seen the same bumbling of US diplomats in India in my childhood, where the US was giving great aid and the Russians were trumping them all the way. The US hobnobbed with the elite and the effete class, while the Russians with the hoi polloi!! And the hoi polloi had the votes, while the rich and the beautiful were more interested in Scotch (not Jack Daniel) and small talk! Interestingly, many members here scoffed it off as bunkum, even though they have not lived in those times or even been born! So, I am not the only expert!

Like Martin Luther King had a Dream, we also dreamt and lived those books. We also played Indians and the Cavalry without being a part of the cultural ethos. I agree it is funny, but then that is how we were brought up and we also read Enid Blyton, Biggles, Billy Bunter and the like.

You must understand I am from the 'colonial hangover' age! We knew more of the West than of our own country! Brought up on British history and British ethics and all that!

Thus, the urge to know more of the West!

Spot on. But do you acknowledge the imperfectability of man in moral matters? And do you believe punishment for lapses should be lifelong suffering?

Too philosophical for my 'pay grade' (another term I learnt from the Colonel; see I am always learning and wanting to know more!)

I agree. The wisdom of age is squandered in the west. But what can we do? Mom and dad want to have their last fling.

I have not understood that in totality.

My American Army student officers found it extraordinary that my Mother lived with us when we had a house in Calcutta. We used to have long chats on the US and US way of life.

It's Palin, Ray, and well you know it.

Thanks for the correction. A very unusual name and so does not stick to the memory.

Her name reminds me of Houdini!

The older the culture, the greater the moral burdens.)

True.

We have gone through what you are going through, long ago!

Originally Posted by ShawnG

Thank you sir, I appreciate that.

Well, on a light note, regarding Indian culture; Do you take a mulligan on hole 17 if you shank your drive into the trees?

Yes indeed.

How can you play golf without a mulligan?

Without a Mulligan, how do you justify your high handicap that helps you to rake in the moolah! )

Originally Posted by Ray

Yes indeed.

How can you play golf without a mulligan?

Without a Mulligan, how do you justify your high handicap that helps you to rake in the moolah! )

How can you play golf with a person who is trying to shoot himself in the head with a fuel pump?) the man is obviously handycapped in the first place

"So how about that Sarah Palin?" Cindy McCain asked the crowd before her husband spoke. "John has picked a reform-minded, hockey-momming, basketball-shooting, moose-hunting, salmon-fishing, pistol-packing, mother of five for vice president."

JAD

Could you explain as to what is a hockey mom and what is the special effect it has on the post of VP?

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Is wrapping itself in the flag a preface to your understanding of the GOP?
This is a family value issue--the value of a family member above the value of retribution.

Sarah Palin is not pregnant out of wedlock. Her 17-year old, of child bearing- age daughter is, and by what circumstances we don't know. A weak moment, heat of passion, date rape, promise to secretly wed...

There's no irony here. But if you want to frame this in family value terms, by which I take to mean, Judeo-Christain values, then perhaps you are
overlooking the essential Christian value of forgiveness, or let's try this out: "let those who have not sinned, cast the first stone."

In the old days this would have been a disaster: eternal shame or a knitting needle abortion. These days we are more enlightened, including the Christian right. We can't undo what has happened, but we can help keep it from becoming a disaster for these two young kids and their baby by leading them to their responsibility and giving them the support they need to see it through.

Reagrdless of religion, I give McCain and Palin high marks for dealing with this problem compassionately and not going about with long faces. It's a great example to all the families in America who face the same problem. It's a casebook in the right way to do it. Interesting, isn't it? Now where is my flag.

JAD that was very nicely put and it just so happens I agree with you.

My issue is what I perceive to be a double standard when I see some pundits or conservative commentators imply that the GOP has a greater moral superiority because they preach abstinence only as a manner of birth control yet are seemingly impervious to the fact that as a sole remedy for teen pregnancy it has been an utter failure.

A good example might be The Daily Show video I posted that shows Bill O’Reilly (conservative pundit and commentator) saying how Sarah Palin’s daughter’s pregnancy was a non-issue and should not reflect on either Ms. Palin or her family is in stark contrast to his earlier commentary on Jamie Lynn Spears pregnancy where he referred to her parents as a couple of pinheads for failing to act as positive role models.

For the record as a parent I can say with authority that most parents want their daughters to abstain from sex before marriage, heck for that matter I know a couple of dad’s that wouldn’t mind if their daughters abstained after they were married as well. But the reality is that children and teenagers have a way ignoring their parent’s wishes.

I have no doubt that we could have a very long debate on the value of an "abstinence only" approach (supported by the "No Child Left Behind Act") versus the more traditional sexuality programs that include the correct usage and protective qualities of contraceptives.

But I digress my sole point was that I take issue the what I perceive to be the double standard at work here regarding Ms. Palin’s daughter.

Originally Posted by Ray

JAD

Could you explain as to what is a hockey mom and what is the special effect it has on the post of VP?

Ray, for me it means that I’d feel safer going to a hockey match with Sarah Palin than quail hunting with Dick Cheney.


But to answer your question. Sarah Palin has described herself as a "hockey mom", apparently suggesting a more blue-collar variation on the soccer mom category. In a literal definition, soccer moms have children who play soccer. The term has been extended in popular culture to include mothers anxiously running their children errands in minivans/SUVs while chatting on their cell phones.

Originally Posted by dave lukins

How can you play golf with a person who is trying to shoot himself in the head with a fuel pump?) the man is obviously handycapped in the first place

Hey! I was just filling up!

Originally Posted by Ray

JAD

Could you explain as to what is a hockey mom and what is the special effect it has on the post of VP?

To add to what Tim said, She was just relating herself to her audience. Enforcing the idea that she's aware (from experience) of the goings on & hardships that parents in America face every day. Parents of children who play sports, in her case, hockey. Mom's who will shout and cheer for their children at games, take them to practice every day, etc.

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Is wrapping itself in the flag a preface to your understanding of the GOP?
This is a family value issue--the value of a family member above the value of retribution.

Sarah Palin is not pregnant out of wedlock. Her 17-year old, of child bearing- age daughter is, and by what circumstances we don't know. A weak moment, heat of passion, date rape, promise to secretly wed...

There's no irony here. But if you want to frame this in family value terms, by which I take to mean, Judeo-Christain values, then perhaps you are
overlooking the essential Christian value of forgiveness, or let's try this out: "let those who have not sinned, cast the first stone."

In the old days this would have been a disaster: eternal shame or a knitting needle abortion. These days we are more enlightened, including the Christian right. We can't undo what has happened, but we can help keep it from becoming a disaster for these two young kids and their baby by leading them to their responsibility and giving them the support they need to see it through.

Reagrdless of religion, I give McCain and Palin high marks for dealing with this problem compassionately and not going about with long faces. It's a great example to all the families in America who face the same problem. It's a casebook in the right way to do it. Interesting, isn't it? Now where is my flag.

I am joining issues because of the cultural differences and our understanding of Christianity in India. I have 'dabbled' in Christianity as is understood world wide and have renounced religion totally for the very reason that I found where the Devil also cited scriptures to suit his purpose! I club all the priestly class of all religions and the over zealous ones in each religion!

While I am no Wahabbi variety of the Christian world, but I do think that if one wears Christianity on the sleeve (I don't) and makes a hoop la over it by stating that she is pro life etc and bring to this world a Down Syndrome child, who will have to battle through this unfair life, then she should show her Christianity on the major values of Christianity and sex outside wedlock, in our Christian practices in India, is a great NO NO! Christianity as I was initiated in, did emphasise that this was a Sin and I was at that time with the Anglican Church which is more 'cool' than Catholics and others!!

You speak of Forgiveness. Indeed that is a Christian virtue. But does it mean a sin is condoned? An exaggerated example, but an example none the same, why did we not show the same Christian virtue to Saddam ( I could have brought in a better example, but let this pass)? Why are we so forgiving to Mugabwe who is worse than Saddam. Is it out of Christian forgiveness?

I do not understand how a weak moment, act of passion and other such reasons, dilute the fact that Christianity does not permit sex out of wedlock. In fact, I wonder which religion does!

Let us look at another moral question. The girl got impregnated under a moment of weakness. Excellent (keeping modern ideals of the US). When she was pregnant, how come this person who impregnated her, did not have the gentleman's honour to immediately marry her? Tarry a while. With the media glare, he has capitulated as also realising that he had a damn good chance to be the VP's son in law, which surely will carry the perks of being so!

Do forgive me, but I beg to disagree with you, if you wish to base the issue on Christian values and Christian family values as is understood by the Christians world wide.

I am not too aware as to how Americans interpret Christianity, but to me, Pilan's Christianity does not appeal.

Compare McCain's honesty to Palin's hypocrisy!

Originally Posted by ShawnG

To add to what Tim said, She was just relating herself to her audience. Enforcing the idea that she's aware (from experience) of the goings on & hardships that parents in America face every day. Parents of children who play sports, in her case, hockey. Mom's who will shout and cheer for their children at games, take them to practice every day, etc.

How is that a hardship?