Vetting Obama-Your Right To Know

**Julie** · 29 Aug 08, 13:18

Originally Posted by snapper

Did anyone else notice that during the call for Obama to be nominated 'by acclaim' the the time given for ppl to say/shout 'nay' was about 1/10 of that given to those shouting 'yea'?

yup, I noticed that too. :P

**Blue** · 29 Aug 08, 14:59

Quote: BY RAY
One is taught 'Escape and Evasion' as a part of military training to avoid being captured and if captured to continuously attempt escape. There are enough of such examples in WW II.

By JAD333

Again, not worthy of you, sir. Have you ever been a POW in a Vietnamese camp? How many of McCain's fellow prisoners escaped. Zero. It appears the logic of your statement is that if you do not escape you failed your duty.

It is printed (was in 1985 anyway) right in the Army smartbook. That if captured it is your duty to make every attempt to escape at any opportunity. The General is correct as pertaining to the militarys' logic. I will check as soon as I get home and dig out my old smartbook, but I believe it was titled "creed of the fighting man" or something to that effect.

**JAD_333** · 29 Aug 08, 18:27

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

Mc Cain tried?

It is printed (was in 1985 anyway) right in the Army smartbook. That if captured it is your duty to make every attempt to escape at any opportunity. The General is correct as pertaining to the militarys' logic. I will check as soon as I get home and dig out my old smartbook, but I believe it was titled "creed of the fighting man" or something to that effect.

You're missing the nuance. Yes, a POW's duty is to escape if he can and he should plan and work to that end. But if a POW does neither it is not necessarily dereliction of duty. The opportunity, physical ability and means have to be present to escape successfully. If prisoners are in solitary confinement, watched 24/7, and in bad physical shape, as was true in McCain's case, the best they may be able to do is dream of escape or make a suicidal attempt. I doubt the smart book says that POWs have a duty to make the attempt if it means sure death.

No one who wasn't there with McCain to assess the situation should be calling into question whether he did his duty.

**gunnut** · 29 Aug 08, 18:56

Originally Posted by snapper

Did anyone else notice that during the call for Obama to be nominated 'by acclaim' the the time given for ppl to say/shout 'nay' was about 1/10 of that given to those shouting 'yea'?

They were allowed to say "nay" to Jesus Obama?

**JAD_333** · 29 Aug 08, 19:23

Originally Posted by snapper

Did anyone else notice that during the call for Obama to be nominated 'by acclaim' the the time given for ppl to say/shout 'nay' was about 1/10 of that given to those shouting 'yea'?

It's sort of like asking "how are you" when you meet someone but not really caring.

**Blue** · 30 Aug 08, 00:12

Originally Posted by JAD_333

You're missing the nuance.

Probably, I do that all the time. I'm not a very nuanced guy.

Yes, a POW's duty is to escape if he can and he should plan and work to that end. But if a POW does neither it is not necessarily dereliction of duty.

In some cases I'm sure it could be, but probably not in todays kinder, gentler, service, and evidently it was not in McCains case.

The opportunity, physical ability and means have to be present to escape successfully. If prisoners are in solitary confinement, watched 24/7, and in bad physical shape, as was true in McCain's case, the best they may be able to do is dream of escape or make a suicidal attempt.

I think that goes without saying.

I doubt the smart book says that POWs have a duty to make the attempt if it means sure death.

Any escape attempt could result in death. Captors, like the VC or even AQ, tend to make examples of those who do not obey.

No one who wasn't there with McCain to assess the situation should be calling into question whether he did his duty.

I was simply stating that the General was correct in quoting policy. I was not criticizing or questioning McCain. Now, with that being said. The only way that I could be taken prisoner is if I was unconcious or too busted up to fight to the death. IIRC, that was McCains case. I would bet He would say the same thing. He knew his fighting days were over because of his injuries and when given the chance to go home, he stayed with his brothers in arms. I can't even put how I feel about that into words. It gives me a respect for McCain that has no equal. Our politics may differ, but I would be happy to step outside with anyone who would dare question the warrior ethic of John McCain.

**Julie** · 30 Aug 08, 02:55

Not attempting to change the subject here, but there was a complaint filed in Federal Court Thursday challenging Obama's citizenship. Do yall want me to post it? There may not be anything to it, but it could grow legs because he was adopted by his step-father in Indonesia which, according to the complaint, disqualifies Obama as a US citizen.

**McFire** · 30 Aug 08, 03:02

Originally Posted by Julie

Not attempting to change the subject here, but there was a complaint filed in Federal Court Thursday challenging Obama's citizenship. Do yall want me to post it? There may not be anything to it, but it could grow legs because he was adopted by his step-father in Indonesia which, according to the complaint, disqualifies Obama as a US citizen.

OOOH! A possible "in" for Hillary.

**Bluesman** · 30 Aug 08, 03:40

Originally Posted by McFire

OOOH! A possible "in" for Hillary.

The mainstream rightward blogs are all dismissing this as hopeless theatrics, and give it no credence. Sounds right to me, to.

Besides...I think I really WANT to run against this nugget. I think we can beat him now, and even if he wins (PLEASE, NO!!!), I think he'll be a one-termer, and a very ineffectual one, at that.

Let's go; put 'em up, Democrats.

**JAD_333** · 30 Aug 08, 04:06

Originally Posted by Bluesman

The mainstream rightward blogs are all dismissing this as hopeless theatrics, and give it no credence. Sounds right to me, to.

Besides...I think I really WANT to run against this nugget. I think we can beat him now, and even if he wins (PLEASE, NO!!!), I think he'll be a one-termer, and a very ineffectual one, at that.

Let's go; put 'em up, Democrats.

Ditto. McCain's citizenship was affirmed by a congressional legislation; he was born in the Canal Zone. It really wasn't necessary. In Obama's case his mother was a US citizen and he was born in Hawaii, although the conspiracy sleuths are trying to prove his Certificate of Live Birth is a forgery. The court will throw the case out.

**Bluesman** · 30 Aug 08, 04:28

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Ditto. McCain's citizenship was affirmed by a congressional legislation; he was born in the Canal Zone. It really wasn't necessary. In Obama's case his mother was a US citizen and he was born in Hawaii, although the conspiracy sleuths are trying to prove his Certificate of Live Birth is a forgery. The court will throw the case out.

And that suits me just fine. Democrats, you wanted him; you can hold this asp to your bosom, and we'll see you in hell.

It's on, baby.

**JAD_333** · 30 Aug 08, 05:03

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

Probably, I do that all the time. I'm not a very nuanced guy.

Fewer worries, then.

I was simply stating that the General was correct in quoting policy. I was not criticizing or questioning McCain.

I know you weren't criticizing McCain. But--here we have the nuance--the general was by implication. He said McCain had nothing to recommend him as a candidate except that he was a POW and added the following.

'One is taught 'Escape and Evasion' as a part of military training to avoid being captured and if captured to continuously attempt escape. There are enough of such examples in WW II.

Mc Cain tried?"

If that isn't a suggestion of deleliction of duty, I'll apologize.

Now, with that being said. The only way that I could be taken prisoner is if I was unconcious or too busted up to fight to the death. IIRC, that was McCains case. I would bet He would say the same thing. He knew his fighting days were over because of his injuries and when given the chance to go home, he stayed with his brothers in arms. I can't even put how I feel about that into words. It gives me a respect for McCain that has no equal. Our politics may differ, but I would be happy to step outside with anyone who would dare question the warrior ethic of John McCain.

Well put.

Let me just relate to you a conversation I had with a retired Army colonel today. He worked on revising the Code of Conduct right after Vietnam and along the way met with some of the ex-POWs from the Hanoi Hilton. They all suggested that the Code allow POWs to make statements after they had been sufficiently tortured. These statements would be like the one McCain gave--home town, school, etc.--no military information.

As a result of talking to him, I have to qualify my statement that zero POWs escaped. In fact one POW told him how he escaped 3 times and almost made it to safety on one attempt. Two POWs that he knows of were shot and killed trying to escape. He also told me that Robbie Robinson, one of the sr prisioners and later a USMC general said that planning group escapes was virtually impossible because there was no way POWs could communicate face to face, and the crude code they tapped out was no good for detailed planning.

**gunnut** · 30 Aug 08, 05:36

I have a question. My friend inspired me after he told me that democrats chant OBAMA after Obama's speech and republicans chant USA after McCain's speech.

Has anyone ever heard the chant of USA at any recent democrat rallies?

I have to say, I've heard of the OBAMA chant but never USA chant at a democrat rally.

**Blue** · 30 Aug 08, 05:37

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Let me just relate to you a conversation I had with a retired Army colonel today. He worked on revising the Code of Conduct right after Vietnam and along the way met with some of the ex-POWs from the Hanoi Hilton. They all suggested that the Code allow POWs to make statements after they had been sufficiently tortured. These statements would be like the one McCain gave--home town, school, etc.--no military information.

So did it get changed after Nam? IIRC, in the late 80s it still stood as name, rank, SSN and unit. We were instructed to provide absolutely nothing else. I admit I would have been good for some probably unheard of slurs, swears and insults. Never have been able to keep my mouth shut

**Bluesman** · 30 Aug 08, 06:22

Originally Posted by gunnut

I have a question. My friend inspired me after he told me that democrats chant OBAMA after Obama's speech and republicans chant USA after McCain's speech.

Has anyone ever heard the chant of USA at any recent democrat rallies?

I have to say, I've heard of the OBAMA chant but never USA chant at a democrat rally.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. Rather an interesting fact, I think.

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