Thread: Vetting Obama-Your Right To Know

Originally Posted by Bigfella

The truly hilarious thing about this statement is that it applies every bit as well to a significant proportion of conservatives. They are so wrapped up in their own self-mythology that whenever reality disagrees it must be the 'liberal media' or the Democrats or someone else. Never them. If they don't have a problem then the problem doesn't exist. Racism - doesn't exist; sexism - nope; torture - that's cool (as long as I don't like the victim); taxation - EVIL SATANIC COMMUNISM!!!!

As far as I can see a conservative is someone who will die in a ditch to prevent the very social progress that a generation later they act as if they brought about. They seem to rely on people having the historical memory of a goldfish.

Some of us can actually remember the hysterical reaction to anyone who dared to point out in 2004-2006 that OIF was going badly. Traitors, supporters of terrorism etc. - how dare retired Generals question the brilliance of conservative politicians. Even now, after all the mistakes of the Bush administraion have been revealled there are people on this board still trying to blame the Democrats for Bush Administration failings that they probably didn't even admit existed a few years ago.

And as for liberals describing opponents as bigots or idiots, I'll leave our posters to decide their opinion of someone who:

- actively supports the Chinese occupation of Tibet by assisting pro-CCP propagandists on this forum better target that propaganda.
- Claims to have more in common with the Chinese Communist Party than he does with Barack Obama.
- reacts to a brutal stabbing by claiming to be relieved the man wasn't shot (because then gun control activists would complain).

A poster boy for modern conservatism.

Note: There are actually some well informed & intelligent conservatives on this board who I have probably offended here. Apologies, but I am heartily sick of this sort of tripe going unchallenged.

Problem is that conservatives weren't upset at criticism or analysis, they/we were upset with emotional wailing and a desire to quit. See, I remember things too.

-dale

Originally Posted by Bigfella

The truly hilarious thing about this statement is that it applies every bit as well to a significant proportion of conservatives. They are so wrapped up in their own self-mythology that whenever reality disagrees it must be the 'liberal media' or the Democrats or someone else. Never them. If they don't have a problem then the problem doesn't exist. Racism - doesn't exist I never said that; sexism - nope never said that either; torture - that's cool (as long as I don't like the victim) never said that; taxation - EVIL SATANIC COMMUNISM!!!! yes I did say this

Originally Posted by Bigfella

As far as I can see a conservative is someone who will die in a ditch to prevent the very social progress that a generation later they act as if they brought about. They seem to rely on people having the historical memory of a goldfish.

You call social progress, I call stifling freedom.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

Some of us can actually remember the hysterical reaction to anyone who dared to point out in 2004-2006 that OIF was going badly. Traitors, supporters of terrorism etc. - how dare retired Generals question the brilliance of conservative politicians. Even now, after all the mistakes of the Bush administraion have been revealled there are people on this board still trying to blame the Democrats for Bush Administration failings that they probably didn't even admit existed a few years ago.

Never said any of the above.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

And as for liberals describing opponents as bigots or idiots, I'll leave our posters to decide their opinion of someone who:

- actively supports the Chinese occupation of Tibet by assisting pro-CCP propagandists on this forum better target that propaganda.

Much like a biased liberal news source, you forgot to mention why I'm against the monks in Tibet. That of an establishment of a religious theocracy (something liberals hate) and stifling progress and personal freedom. As astonishing as it sounds, I see the CCP as something better than the oppressive religious order in Tibet.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

- Claims to have more in common with the Chinese Communist Party than he does with Barack Obama.

Sure, that one's easy. Both are equally socialist and authoritarian, but I'm ethnic Chinese, same as most members of the CCP. Obama is an African American communist.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

- reacts to a brutal stabbing by claiming to be relieved the man wasn't shot (because then gun control activists would complain).

You got that right. I'm a law abiding citizen. There are no laws that says I have to help people in grave and immediate bodily harm. I have first and foremost an obligation for self-preservation. It is my choice. It is something called freedom. I understand the concept is very difficult for you.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

A poster boy for modern conservatism.

And you sir, are a typical half informed liberal.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

Note: There are actually some well informed & intelligent conservatives on this board who I have probably offended here. Apologies, but I am heartily sick of this sort of tripe going unchallenged.

Oooh is that a parting shot?

What I don't understand is why you feel so strongly to defend American liberalism. You don't see me poke my nose in Australian political debate, other than your contraversial decision to grab the guns from law abiding citizens to make sure criminals don't have guns.

It seems like this vetting process started by Julie has really paid dividends for McCain. Before this thread started Obama was up by 7 or 8 points now McCain is up in some polls and the best Obama can do in RCP's average is be up by one point-a statistical tie...RealClearPolitics - Election 2008 - General Election: McCain vs. Obama I didn't know Julie had this kind of power. I guess Obama didn't know what he was in for. )

Obama's campaign has been adrift for a month and the liberal blogs I read are getting a little hysterical (Cross in the dirt speech), and next week the conventions start. This race has tightened, and what was once unthinkable (to some, the media) is now quite possible- a Republican victory, and thus an Obama defeat.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

Note: There are actually some well informed & intelligent conservatives on this board who I have probably offended here. Apologies, but I am heartily sick of this sort of tripe going unchallenged.

Former Democrat turned Republican, so you haven't offended me in the least. Your venting is welcomed, and noted, as it should be.

Originally Posted by Herodotus

It seems like this vetting process started by Julie has really paid dividends for McCain. Before this thread started Obama was up by 7 or 8 points now McCain is up in some polls and the best Obama can do in RCP's average is be up by one point-a statistical tie...RealClearPolitics - Election 2008 - General Election: McCain vs. Obama I didn't know Julie had this kind of power. I guess Obama didn't know what he was in for.

Nah...I contribute McCain's bump from his Saddleback forum discussion. He was awesome.

However, keep in mind to never underestimate the power of a woman.

Originally Posted by Julie

However, keep in mind to never underestimate the power of a woman.

...or another truly bad Democratic candidate.

-dale

Originally Posted by dalem

...or another truly bad Democratic candidate.

-dale

You may want to attend the Food Fight Forum in the Pub my dearest Dale.

However, keep in mind to never underestimate the power of a woman.

Fair enough. I found this data on convention bounces:

BUMPS.png (image)

Stumper : Expertinent: Why Obama Could Use a Big Convention 'Bump'

Interesting data.

[QUOTE=Bigfella;534420]

As far as I can see a conservative is someone who will die in a ditch to prevent the very social progress that a generation later they act as if they brought about. They seem to rely on people having the historical memory of a goldfish.

A conservative is just a person who reacts skeptically (or conservatively) to ATTEMPTS at social progress. This fragment from Wiki expresses my thinking.

The conservative world view emphasises the unknowable. Existing institutions have virtues that cannot be fully grasped by any single person or interest group. An attempt to modify the complex web of human interactions that form human society for the sake of some doctrine or theory runs the risk of running afoul of the iron law of unintended consequences. Conservatives attempt to remain vigilant against the possibility of moral hazards.

To me Social Security is one such monkey wrench thrown into the "complex web". I am all for the concept of government structuring something that encourages people to invest for the future, e.g. IRA, 401K... But the system we now have disencourages people from preparing for their golden years by lulling them into a false sense of security. Today, SS payments are too small for a retiree to maintain the quality of life they enjoyed when they were in their prime. If the Federal government offers its employees an investment-based retirement system--FERs, why not everyone? The short answer is liberals, democrats, New Dealers have people so afraid of SS reform that even if they now wanted to reform it, they couldn't.

So, conservatism to me is going easy on social progress until we have a pretty good fix on what it's going to do in the long run.

As for Iraq, conservatism wasn't about denying that mistakes were made, but about countering the use of those mistakes to justify ending the war or quetioning the use of them to make political hay. As for those generals who we criticize, was it not obvious that the most visible of them were out there to make a name for themselves and maybe gain political office? Wesley Clark comes to mind. I don't begrudge solid criticism of the war when it is tied to proposals on how to do it better or even a good reasoned argument for pulling out, but when it panders to public opinion and lacks constructive counterpoints, I say scorch the buggers for what they are: a dead weight.

A conservative is nothing without a liberal. So, don't hesitate to call it like you see it.

Originally Posted by Herodotus

Fair enough. I found this data on convention bounces:

BUMPS.png (image)

Stumper : Expertinent: Why Obama Could Use a Big Convention 'Bump'

Interesting data.

Not worth a hill of beans. Note in both of Reagan's wins, the dems outbumped him.

One bump killer might be Hillary. She is going to be nominated just for drill, and Obama, of course, will win on the second vote if it gets that far. She'll be gracious and urge her followers to support Obama. But for her followers it will be just ripping the scab off their disappointment that she lost the primary race. How thrilling is that? Bump anyone?

Since I'm not here to start a flame war I'm not going to do the standard point by point reply. I will tackle this, however.

What I don't understand is why you feel so strongly to defend American liberalism. You don't see me poke my nose in Australian political debate, other than your contraversial decision to grab the guns from law abiding citizens to make sure criminals don't have guns.

I'm not defending American Liberalism, I'm defending the political left. There is a difference. I have little time for the Democrats, I just happen to dislike the GOP a great deal more (with some exceptions, including the current Presidential candidate). Believe it or not political ideas are not always geographically bounded.

The reason I 'poke my nose' into American politics is that the outcome of your elections has the potential to greatly impact my nation & the wider world. Legislation passed by the US congress & aimed at domestic problems can have impacts all over the world. You cannot say the reverse. I would love for US politics to be the sort of abstract spectator sport that most European, African or Latin American political contests are. Unfortunately those of us outside America get to live with many of the consequences of your choices without getting to vote. Under such circumstances I should at least be permitted an opinion on your political contests.


You are welcome to comment on Australian politics, though nothing in your posts suggests that you would have anything to contribute.

Legislation passed by the US congress & aimed at domestic problems can have impacts all over the world

How does our domestic legislation (health care, taxes, welfare reform, etc.) affect Australia? I can understand foreign policy, or trade policy, but how does our domestic legilsation affect you?

Not worth a hill of beans. Note in both of Reagan's wins, the dems outbumped him.

Only because Reagan had sizeable leads before the conventions. What I read was that the conventions correct the pre-convention polling. If someone is doing better than expected than his bounce will not be as big (if any bounce at all). If someone is underperforming than his bouce will be greater.

That doesn't mean it will happen for these conventions. I agree that Hillary can throw a monkey wrench into the works, which leaves everything on Obama, on his "Greatest Speech Ever" night. Whatever the case, the election is close and will probably remain so until Election Day.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

The reason I 'poke my nose' into American politics is that the outcome of your elections has the potential to greatly impact my nation & the wider world. Legislation passed by the US congress & aimed at domestic problems can have impacts all over the world.

So are you saying a Democrat administration has a more positive impact on nations abroad? Please be specific as to economically, foreign affairs, etc.