I personally think McCain won the match at the Saddleback Forum last night.
I was busy; will watch tonight at 8.Originally Posted by Julie
Here's some amusing running commentary while the event was going on.
Michelle Malkin » Saddle up: Saddleback Forum open thread; Obama on abortion: “Above my pay grade,” attacks Clarence Thomas
To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato
August 19, 2008
Barack Obama had a mini Bob Dole moment after the Saddleback presidential forum the other night. Asked on the Christian Broadcasting Network about a controversy over his opposition to legislation in Illinois protecting infants born alive after surviving abortions, an irked Obama replied, "I hate to say that people are lying, but here's a situation where folks are lying."
Obama's line recalled Dole's plaint on national TV after the first George Bush beat him in New Hampshire in 1988, "Tell him to stop lying about my record." Dole's outburst would live in infamy as evidence of his distemper. Obama's problem isn't his temperament, but the unsustainable exertions necessary to attempt to square his reasonable-sounding rhetoric on abortion with the extremism of his record.
Asked by Pastor Rick Warren when a baby gets rights, Obama said, "I'm absolutely convinced that there is a moral and ethical element to this issue." This is a crashing banality couched as thoughtfulness. If Obama is so sensitive to the moral element of the issue, why does he want to eliminate any existing restrictions on the procedure?
In 2007, Obama told the Planned Parenthood Action Fund that the Freedom of Choice Act would be the first piece of legislation that he would sign as president. The act would not only codify Roe v. Wade, but wipe out all current federal, state and local restrictions on abortion that pass muster under Roe, including the Hyde Amendment prohibiting federal funding of abortion. This is not the legislative priority of a man keenly attuned to the moral implications of abortion.
At Saddleback, Obama said determining when a baby gets rights is "above his pay grade." Leave aside that presidents usually have an opinion about who deserves legal rights. If Obama is willing to permit any abortions in any circumstances, he'd better possess an absolute certainty about the absolute moral nullity of the fetus.
He told Warren that he favors "limits on late-term abortions, if there is an exception for the mother's health." But the exception he wants is so broad it makes the restriction meaningless. Obama opposed the partial-birth bill that passed the House and the Senate, 281-142 and 64-34 respectively, and has criticized the Supreme Court for upholding the law.
It's not just partial-birth abortion where Obama is outside the mainstream, but on the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act -- the occasion for his televised accusation of lying.
In 2000, Congress took up legislation to make it clear that infants born alive after abortions are persons under the law. The National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League opposed the bill as an assault on Roe, but it passed the House 380-15. Back in the Illinois state Senate in 2001, Obama spoke out against and voted "present" -- effectively "no" -- on a similar bill, aligning himself with the tiny pro-abortion rump of 15 congressmen.
In 2002, Congress considered the legislation again, this time adding a "neutrality clause" specifying that it didn't affect Roe one way or another. The bill passed without any dissenting votes in the House or the Senate and was signed into law. In 2003 in Illinois, Obama still opposed a state version of the law. He long claimed that he voted against it because it didn't have the same "neutrality clause" as the federal version. But the National Right to Life Committee has unearthed documents showing that the Illinois bill was amended to include such a clause, and Obama voted to kill it anyway.
Confronted about this on CBN, he said the pro-life group was lying. But his campaign has now admitted that he had the legislative history wrong. Obama either didn't know his own record, or was so accustomed to shrouding it in dishonesty that it had become second nature.
Here's one of the central dilemmas of Obama's candidacy. Nothing in his career supports his contention that he's a post-partisan healer. So, as someone as splenetic as Bob Dole might put it, he's forced to lie about his record.
RealClearPolitics - Articles - Obama Lying About His Abortion Record
Julie:
Pretty convincing. Thanks.
To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato
I don't have time to find the clip for this but it does exist. Hannity played it a couple days ago. I believe it occured during one of the debates or an interview therein. He said he would teach his daughters to be morally upstanding but if they made a mistake and got into trouble, that he wanted to have the option for an abortion there, so they wouldn't have to, and I quote this verbatum, "to be punished by having a baby". Isn't it grand when we don't have to be responsible for our actions. So what is morally upstanding about killing your baby? Folks, I just can not get my head that far up my butt to see things from Obamas point of view!
Last edited by Blue; 19 Aug 08, at 22:41.
You know that NBC reported that McCain got the script early or was listening to Obama during the interview. Secret Service has confirmed that McCain was sitting in the dressing room with no ability to hear Obama's interview from the stage. Apparently the McCain camp has asked NBC's president to look into the false allegations.
Everyone confirms that both candidates received rough previews of general topics to be covered, and both candidates knew what the first three questions were going to be ahead of time. The idea that McCain was listening to Obama's halting and stupid answers ahead of time is silly and unfounded and although sad, it is fairly typical of the left to cry foul when they are soundly beaten.
After all, it's impossible for a white man to best a black man unless he cheats, right?
-dale
I'm no expert in American politics, but it seemed to me that both Obama and McCain performed well in that forum appealing to America.
However, it isn't appealing to all of America, it's only appealing to Evangelicals since the whole forum is aimed at them. I suspect that in the eyes of the Evangelicals, McCain did far better than Obama did and it should help him with that voting block.
Obama as mentioned in WAB before is this sort of mythical figure who comes down to earth as people know him better and that myth is dispelled. I don't know why he's doing this forum. His best chance with the evangelicals is his appeal of change and the mythical feeling he gives off, he should know that most of his policies generally disagree with the majority of Evangelicals.
Last edited by wkllaw; 20 Aug 08, at 00:53.
Those who can't change become extinct.
McCain was 30 min late to the venue. Obama people complained that McCain could have listened to Obama's session in the car to prepare himself. Otherwise he couldn't have done so well...not that they concede McCain won the debate...
I think here lies the failing of the liberals. They are so full of themselves that they think anyone with an R after his name is an uneducated redneck country bumpkin hill billy who can't tell the difference between a Big Mac from an iMac. It is inconceivable for a non-liberal to be even semi-intelligent or having a good grasp of this world. The liberal view is the be-all end-all view point of this world. Anyone who differs is either an idiot or a bigot, or both.
We saw the bitterness over the last 8 years. First Bush stole the election. Then Kerry was swiftboated. Maybe Americans just don't like liberals. Maybe the liberals are wrong about this world. But no, that's impossible. The self-righteous cannot be wrong.
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
Here's the problem with your analysis. If Obama did equally as well, but to a different block, then why would Obama's people accuse McCain of cheating? Obviously they are insecure with their guy's performance. What other explanation could there be?
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
Because they are in denial. I believe there are two more scheduled forums, and maybe after those, they will finally see the light.....but don't count on it, because Pelosi can't see the forest for the damn trees because she's trying to "save the planet."
Actually I read on I think NRO an interview where Warren said he did not get a chance to tell McCain the third question. There wasn't enough time before McCain's turn.
When Obama is in control of his own image, his moments of detachment and irony are celebrated as bearing remarkable similarities to those of the cool, shrewd and confident JFK, who won in 1960. When doubts about Obama creep in, those same characteristics are disparaged for resembling the diffidence and distance of Stevenson, who lost in 1952 and 1956.
At its most exciting moments, Obama's campaign has been compared to the great crusades for change in our country's history. His appeal to African Americans and the young of all races has led enthusiasts to see his effort as the reincarnation of Robert F. Kennedy's brief, glorious and tragic 1968 run for the presidency.
But when Obama falls into the long pauses he is sometimes given to in debate, the wordy answers he periodically offers to questions, or the visible impatience he exhibits toward the less-elevating aspects of politics, he seems far more the law review editor, the professor, the classic good-government guy whose reach to society's hard-pressed is limited.
Occasionally, these very different Obamas show up at the same time. More precisely, the same words can be heard as ratifying either version of his story, depending on the assumptions a listener brings to them.
E. J. Dionne Jr. - Which Obama Will They See? - washingtonpost.com
Obama's Adlai Stevenson personna seemed to be in full display at Saddleback.
Note last paragraph.
To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato
One sunny day in 2009, an old man approached the White House from across Pennsylvania Avenue , where he'd been sitting on a park bench.
He spoke to the Marine standing guard and said, 'I would like to go in and meet with President Barack Obama.'
The Marine replied, 'Sir, Mr. Obama is not President and doesn't reside here.'
The old man said, 'Okay,' and walked away. The following day, the same man approached the White House and said to the same Marine, 'I would like to go in and meet with President Barack Obama'.
The Marine again told the man, 'Sir, as I said yesterday, Mr. Obama is not President and doesn't reside here.' The man thanked him and again walked away.
The third day, the same man approached the White House and spoke to the very same Marine, saying 'I would like to go in and meet with President Barack Obama'
The Marine, understandably agitated at this point, looked at the man and said, 'Sir, this is the third day in a row you have been here asking to speak to Mr. Obama. I've told you already several times that Mr. Obama is not the President and doesn't reside here. Don't you understand?'
The old man answered, 'Oh, I understand you fine. I just love hearing your answer!"
The Marine snapped to attention, saluted, and said, 'See you tomorrow,Sir'.
Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.
The truly hilarious thing about this statement is that it applies every bit as well to a significant proportion of conservatives. They are so wrapped up in their own self-mythology that whenever reality disagrees it must be the 'liberal media' or the Democrats or someone else. Never them. If they don't have a problem then the problem doesn't exist. Racism - doesn't exist; sexism - nope; torture - that's cool (as long as I don't like the victim); taxation - EVIL SATANIC COMMUNISM!!!!I think here lies the failing of the liberals. They are so full of themselves that they think anyone with an R after his name is an uneducated redneck country bumpkin hill billy who can't tell the difference between a Big Mac from an iMac. It is inconceivable for a non-liberal to be even semi-intelligent or having a good grasp of this world. The liberal view is the be-all end-all view point of this world. Anyone who differs is either an idiot or a bigot, or both.
We saw the bitterness over the last 8 years. First Bush stole the election. Then Kerry was swiftboated. Maybe Americans just don't like liberals. Maybe the liberals are wrong about this world. But no, that's impossible. The self-righteous cannot be wrong.
As far as I can see a conservative is someone who will die in a ditch to prevent the very social progress that a generation later they act as if they brought about. They seem to rely on people having the historical memory of a goldfish.
Some of us can actually remember the hysterical reaction to anyone who dared to point out in 2004-2006 that OIF was going badly. Traitors, supporters of terrorism etc. - how dare retired Generals question the brilliance of conservative politicians. Even now, after all the mistakes of the Bush administraion have been revealled there are people on this board still trying to blame the Democrats for Bush Administration failings that they probably didn't even admit existed a few years ago.
And as for liberals describing opponents as bigots or idiots, I'll leave our posters to decide their opinion of someone who:
- actively supports the Chinese occupation of Tibet by assisting pro-CCP propagandists on this forum better target that propaganda.
- Claims to have more in common with the Chinese Communist Party than he does with Barack Obama.
- reacts to a brutal stabbing by claiming to be relieved the man wasn't shot (because then gun control activists would complain).
A poster boy for modern conservatism.
Note: There are actually some well informed & intelligent conservatives on this board who I have probably offended here. Apologies, but I am heartily sick of this sort of tripe going unchallenged.
Last edited by Bigfella; 20 Aug 08, at 10:06.
Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C
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