Thread: The Mythology of Munich

Then how about the decision of the first democratic elected German parlament (the Frankfurt Parliament) to found a German state including all German states (i.e. Austria) but only with their "German lands" (for example Sudetenland, but not hungary) at the 27. october of 1848?

Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen

Then how about the decision of the first democratic elected German parlament (the Frankfurt Parliament) to found a German state including all German states (i.e. Austria) but only with their "German lands" (for example Sudetenland, but not hungary) at the 27. october of 1848?

OK, I'll bite.

What actual political entity emerged from this. How long did it last. To what extent could it credibly be called a nation in any more then the most aspirational sense?

To put it simply, did this vote actually create a unified functional political entity, or was it just a romantic nationalist wish list.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that Bohemia was still majority non-German entity at the time.

Bohemia was not suppossed to be (iirc, I am not at the university until fall so I lack the books to look it up) part of it as a whole but only the Sudetenland (which more or less is the "outer region" of Bohemia).

The National Assembly was a democratic elected parlament for (and by) "whole Germay" (i.e. including Austria, but hungary. Back then Austria was seen "as German" as for example Bavaria). It created the first German constitution and republic (parliamentary system and constitutional monarchy) but was doomed to failure after the Prussian king negcleted to serve as monarch for it. The symbolic and is usually seen at the shooting of Robert Blum (which of course happened at a 9. november).

Thogh the point I am trying to make is not that the Sudetenland belongs to Germany, but rather that (back when there lived a majority of Germans), it had a bigger "right" to be part of a German state then for example Luxenbourg
or the Netherlands, even though they once "clearly" lied in "Germany" (as far as it is possible to use that term prior 1871). What I am trying to say that "modern" borders cannot be simply be based upon centuries old borderstones, but more on who lived, and lives there, and what those people actually want.

I am nut sore if I am able to get my point accross (at least in a way that is understandable)

Originally Posted by Bigfella

Yes, there were ethnic Germans there, and yes, they had been there for centuries

As an aside, Bigfella, I've always thought it amusing that the map of Europe drawn up in 1919 to supposedly place ethnic groups together of course didn't apply that principle to Germany ... it would have finished a larger and potentially more dangerous nation than the one that had entered the war!

Originally Posted by clackers

Originally Posted by Bigfella
Yes, there were ethnic Germans there, and yes, they had been there for centuries

As an aside, Bigfella, I've always thought it amusing that the map of Europe drawn up in 1919 to supposedly place ethnic groups together of course didn't apply that principle to Germany ... it would have finished a larger and potentially more dangerous nation than the one that had entered the war!

clackers, check out the post WW1 map of Turkey/Greece. It gets bigger if you look at the 'small' players in past conflicts...

Originally Posted by clackers

As an aside, Bigfella, I've always thought it amusing that the map of Europe drawn up in 1919 to supposedly place ethnic groups together of course didn't apply that principle to Germany ... it would have finished a larger and potentially more dangerous nation than the one that had entered the war!

There was also an obsession with creating 'viable' nations & a committment to rewarding the victors. Not exactly a model to emulate.

There was more than a bit of payback in Versailles, but it was payback for a couple of empires that had little compunction about completely absorbing their neighbours. I feel precisely the pity for Germans caught up in Poland or Czechoslovakia as they felt for Polish nation they helped to dismember.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

Just so we are clear, I don't think any of the territory claimed in 1938 had ever been part of any German national entity. Yes, there were ethnic Germans there, and yes, they had been there for centuries, but as far as I can tell the area called the 'Sudetenland' had either been part of Bohemia or the Hapsburg Empire even before that migration.

Germany may have been able to claim 'lost' territory to France, Poland & a number of smaller states, but I'm pretty sure Czechoslovakia was not among them.

The upshot of all this, of course, was the devastating 'ethnic cleansing' of Germans from parts East after 1945. I'm sure that one of the many reason that tens of millions of Germans were forced to flee West was that no one wanted a large German minority on their soil to stir up trouble any more.

Well, there's no disputing that any territories could be claimed as part of a german national entity as you said - Germany as a nation was really only something that came into being in the 1800's...

but as is the case with all territorial disputes, they often are regressive and constant.

The Czech army was divided in to czech, germans and solvaks

with a lot of german gernerals
Would they fight ?