Thread: Universal care cheaper and better than private insurance.

I have worked with any number of Aussie, Brit, Canadian and Saffie R.N.s who left their universal systems to come where the pay is better, and they get to ply their trade as valued purveyors of a consumable product, not as government employees.

Point of information: doctors in Canada are not government employees, they have their own private practices. In Canada it is the insurance that is public, universal (pre-existing conditions don't matter and you don't even have to be a citizen, although I believe only legal immigrants will be covered), and free (obviously you pay taxes - but by free I mean no co-payments, fees, and deductibles) not the delivery. Our system isn't perfect, but I have had to use it a number of times and have been very satisfied, and I never have to try to "walk off" a serious medical problem for financial reasons.

The problem with a free market for health care is that if something is needed desperately, that drives up the cost because they literally need what you have in order to live. In that situation, who wouldn't pay whatever price is demanded? What makes it different from food is that, at least until recently, food was in such abundance that farmers had to be paid to grow less. Health care seems to not be in such abundance. Because the provincial governments act as the "single payer," they can negotiate for lower prices than an individual on the verge of death can. As well, when the provincial government is the single payer, the economies of scale guarantee a lower price on things like prescription drugs.

However, from what I've read, I think the German system might be a better fit for the U.S. (if the U.S. is looking to go "universal") because it seems like it wouldn't really require scrapping what the U.S. currently has, just adding to it and fine tuning it.

Originally Posted by Versus

That is why I said that is less ideal. I mean, don't get me wrong, we don't have neither of those things here. Our national health care system failed and private funded system is growing. I am little worried though, in a country that has 7 million people out of which 47% are 40 years old and above, that has -2% birth ratio and average salary of 300 Euros per month,when we install the private funded health care system, I am guessing that we will lose at least 50% of population in the first ten years. Sucks to be a Serb.

Here's a perfect example of socialism at work. You admit the system failed yet you don't want to give up on that idea. Just like our democrats here, you probably think a few more dollars and a few more rules can fix the system.

You should scrap the national system, return money to the people, and give private care a try.

People aren't stupid. They are perfectly capable of spending their own money to the best of their own interest. Some will fail, as in any system. But most can figure out how to take care of themselve.

People aren't stupid. If you give them an inch of free care, they'll look to stretch that to a mile. That's why socialism will always fail. There simply won't be enough people working to provide those who take the system on a ride. I admit if you give me free care and some basic amenities in life, if democrats get their way it'll include broadband internet service, I'll quit my job and let the hard working carry me.

A former coworker was a committed socialist. I told him if I lose my job I would vote for Hillary. He asked if that's because she will provide a utopian heaven. I said no. She will provide free stuff so I can let the hard working people like him support me. For some odd reason he was not amused...

Originally Posted by gunnut

Here's a perfect example of socialism at work. You admit the system failed yet you don't want to give up on that idea. Just like our democrats here, you probably think a few more dollars and a few more rules can fix the system.

You should scrap the national system, return money to the people, and give private care a try.

People aren't stupid. They are perfectly capable of spending their own money to the best of their own interest. Some will fail, as in any system. But most can figure out how to take care of themselve.

People aren't stupid. If you give them an inch of free care, they'll look to stretch that to a mile. That's why socialism will always fail. There simply won't be enough people working to provide those who take the system on a ride. I admit if you give me free care and some basic amenities in life, if democrats get their way it'll include broadband internet service, I'll quit my job and let the hard working carry me.

A former coworker was a committed socialist. I told him if I lose my job I would vote for Hillary. He asked if that's because she will provide a utopian heaven. I said no. She will provide free stuff so I can let the hard working people like him support me. For some odd reason he was not amused...

Gunnut, we had a civil war and that destroyed our universal health care as well as everything else.
They system can fail for two reasons:

1.It is a bad design from the start.

2.It is not managed properly.

We are getting privatized health care, it is told to be the best there is. In the past ten years, Serbia became number one country in the European region, in use of anti depressives, suicides have grown and the society is getting increasingly violent. The bias between rich and the poor have grown abnormally and the old dogmatics are getting the vote. People whom have nothing, thanks to the democracy, vote for the old forces from the Milosevic's regime, cause they think that they can get things back as they were before. The harsh truth they are about to find out within next few months, that the forces of the old regime that promised social justice are far more capitalist than socialist and when they find out that there is a huge possibility of civil war erupting again.

It looks to me that the private funded healthcare or healthcare for profit works like this:

Chairman of the abnormally huge international corporation says:” Damn, the island I just bought and had a golf course built on, got trashed by the tsunami, I need some cash to buy a new one. I’ll call my HMO’s and tell them to raise prices”
CEO of the HMO says:” Just got word from the investor, we need to raise prices and while we are at it I need to buy a new 57 square acres house for my loved daughter, her 18 birthday is coming up so add that to the increase”
Doctor at the hospital says:” Got the word from the top, I need to charge more, I need new silver plated tires for my third SUV so I’ll add that to the price”

After that they were called on the debate about rising healthcare cost and all three of them said this:
“Look lets be reasonable, everything has a price tag, Mr Chairman of Global Globe Incorporated is in pain for losing his island, I need to by a house for my daughter cause I want to be good daddy and Doctor here needs his tires to drive to work so he can help people. We are all caring people and we want to help but we have our own problems and who is going to help us? No one, we need to help ourselves. And all of you whom attack us all the time, don’t ever want to see our side of pain and misery, how much we suffer form those damn taxes. Give us cuts and it will be better for everybody. “

Originally Posted by cato

Versus,
You want to talk about the psychopathology of addiction? Being an alcoholic, crackhead, crankhead, or junkie, are indeed symptoms of greater pathology. Your life is broken...period. The solution is to seek counseling, much of which is granted by non-profit organizations. Or don't, and suffer the long-term debilitating consequences of addiction. AA, NA, ALANON, and many other groups are FREE. Or simply stop basing when you go into renal failure. Either way, it is not my problem. Nor is it my problem when somebody's eating and drinking habits (this is America, remember) lands them with insulin dependant DMII. Sucks to be you. Nor do I feel compelled to subsidize an above the knee amputation for a diabetic who was unable to remain compliant with his/her regimen.

Life requires self-discipline. If a person lacks it, it is, again, not my problem. Resources exist to help those who wish to help themselves. As I posted earlier, the vast majority of America's (as well as all aging populaces) health care costs come from the last six months of life, and chronic, long term debilitating diseases. Health care is not a right, although it is provided at the local level as such. Don't believe me check this out?. States are, of course free to follow whatever path they choose. Mass's seems to be working out fantastically. These are my opinions, and they reflect my own experiences. Your mileage may vary.

Cato

That is one odd attitude for one whom decided to go into the medicine field. I wonder if you can tell me what was your motivation to go into the medicine at the first place? Cash or Care?

None of the posters seems to have shifted their position by a single inch. Americans are convinced that those who have a national health service are raging lefties who are likely to turn communist overnight. Non - Americans are convinced that the US system is heartless and driven by Mammon. Shall we agree that the truth may lie between these two extremes?

I kind of knew that this is futile, but I wanted to express my views since I had "an honor" to experience all three ways of health care. First one was when we were socialistic, where I had top notch treatment when I was hit by a car and had my tonsils removed for free, numerous visits to ER cause of cuts and one nasty allergy reaction which got me close to death. Trough war and destruction where our social system fall apart and patients got removed from hospitals and didn't got the treatments they needed. To a full blown liberal capitalism California style type of health care which I couldn't afford but had a misfortune to be with the top heads of the industry and hear their thoughts and opinions which made me wish I was both blind and def. Now, upon return to Serbia, I was a witness of new system of privatized medicine growing on the ashes of socialized medicine and, unlike in the times of war and crisis I saw for the first time in 2004 in Belgrade homeless people.My father brother got eye problems, I think it was glaucoma and or cataract and was needed eye surgery. The bill was: 14.000 Euros. He couldn't afford it and the farm, the livestock, the machinery all the food he could produce was wasted. He lives now blind on his property and doing nothing.

The system of socialized medicine is in deep crisis and faces uncertainty. Maybe, with the costs of living rising rapidly, it will disappear completely. If it does it won't disappear cause it is a bad system but becaouse it is the result of global poverty and economic changes. If it goes down it will go down as good system whom truly helped people unlikely the health care for profit which will outlive it, but in essence it will be just another name for murder.

I have to agree about cruelty of private sector.
In india government hospitals are useless (usual reasons, corruption cronyism apathy etc) so in practice everybody has to go private.
Recently a relative of mine crashed his bike and had to be taken to hospital.
When taking care of him only i again saw the brutality of private healthcare.
People literally left to die because they could not afford expensive medications, or dialysis. Diabetes is the number one killer for indians and to see people dying because they cannot afford the treatments for it is truly awful.
Have been to the UK and seen the (Scottish) NHS, it does have its flaws but to someone like me it was wonderful.

Originally Posted by Versus

That is one odd attitude for one whom decided to go into the medicine field. I wonder if you can tell me what was your motivation to go into the medicine at the first place? Cash or Care?

False dichotomy.

Originally Posted by Versus

It looks to me that the private funded healthcare or healthcare for profit works like this:

Chairman of the abnormally huge international corporation says:” Damn, the island I just bought and had a golf course built on, got trashed by the tsunami, I need some cash to buy a new one. I’ll call my HMO’s and tell them to raise prices”
CEO of the HMO says:” Just got word from the investor, we need to raise prices and while we are at it I need to buy a new 57 square acres house for my loved daughter, her 18 birthday is coming up so add that to the increase”
Doctor at the hospital says:” Got the word from the top, I need to charge more, I need new silver plated tires for my third SUV so I’ll add that to the price”

After that they were called on the debate about rising healthcare cost and all three of them said this:
“Look lets be reasonable, everything has a price tag, Mr Chairman of Global Globe Incorporated is in pain for losing his island, I need to by a house for my daughter cause I want to be good daddy and Doctor here needs his tires to drive to work so he can help people. We are all caring people and we want to help but we have our own problems and who is going to help us? No one, we need to help ourselves. And all of you whom attack us all the time, don’t ever want to see our side of pain and misery, how much we suffer form those damn taxes. Give us cuts and it will be better for everybody. “

Do you believe your own made up examples?

Originally Posted by Shek

Do you believe your own made up examples?

No, but I thought they might be funny.
But you know, I think that I can agree with all of you that the costs of treatment exist. Who is going to pay for them is the point I don't agree the most. But since, private health care is growing up here, it seems to me that I have to learn to live with it...it will be hard to accept but there is no really other way. I just hope I don't die in a process.

Originally Posted by glyn

None of the posters seems to have shifted their position by a single inch. Americans are convinced that those who have a national health service are raging lefties who are likely to turn communist overnight. Non - Americans are convinced that the US system is heartless and driven by Mammon. Shall we agree that the truth may lie between these two extremes?

Well said.

FWIW, I live in the US, and the State that I live in provides a number of free clinics that are staffed by volunteers from a local private hospital. This hospital is rated among the top medical centers in the Nation. Patients who don't have private insurance basically have to pay what they can afford, but no one is turned away. The care is decent quality, the only problem is the wait time for certain medical necessities. Most states have a similar setup. So its not like people who don't have insurance cannot get any treatment.

Originally Posted by glyn

None of the posters seems to have shifted their position by a single inch. Americans are convinced that those who have a national health service are raging lefties who are likely to turn communist overnight. Non - Americans are convinced that the US system is heartless and driven by Mammon. Shall we agree that the truth may lie between these two extremes?

You mean they're not?

Originally Posted by Johnny W

Well said.

FWIW, I live in the US, and the State that I live in provides a number of free clinics that are staffed by volunteers from a local private hospital. This hospital is rated among the top medical centers in the Nation. Patients who don't have private insurance basically have to pay what they can afford, but no one is turned away. The care is decent quality, the only problem is the wait time for certain medical necessities. Most states have a similar setup. So its not like people who don't have insurance cannot get any treatment.

I'm pleased to hear it. It does not seem to be an all that well-known aspect of America (at least on this side of the ditch).