Universal care cheaper and better than private insurance.

**glyn** · 11 Jun 08, 19:28

It seems to be an either for or against argument with neither side being able to convince the other. Those countries that have a national medical service available to all seem pretty content with what they have, as are those who can personally afford a different system. Each to their own.

**Shek** · 11 Jun 08, 19:33

Originally Posted by Versus

Ok try to understand like this:
You have the 10 people in a private founded system and you have 10 people in a General health care system. Each group has 10.000$ income. Treatment that they need costs 20.000$. Each group has a year to live if they don't get the treatment.
10 people in the private founded system can't afford it.They die.
10 people in the General health care system give 1000$ monthly for the general health care trough taxes. At the end of the year 6 of them get the treatment and live while 4 die.

Why can't they save $1000 each month themselves? Why can't their families help pay for treatment? Why can't charities donate to their treatment? Why can't they coordinate amongst themselves who gets the treatment? Which system innovates and creates the treatment that allows them to live in the first place?

**gunnut** · 11 Jun 08, 19:42

Originally Posted by glyn

It seems to be an either for or against argument with neither side being able to convince the other. Those countries that have a national medical service available to all seem pretty content with what they have, as are those who can personally afford a different system. Each to their own.

Sir, I'm sure the NHS is a fine service. I just don't like being forced to pay though taxes a one-size-fits-all health care plan. I'm all for a nationalized plan that has an opt out clause.

**Versus** · 11 Jun 08, 20:22

Originally Posted by Shek

Why can't they save $1000 each month themselves? Why can't their families help pay for treatment? Why can't charities donate to their treatment? Why can't they coordinate amongst themselves who gets the treatment? Which system innovates and creates the treatment that allows them to live in the first place?

I gave you an oversimplified example of how things should work. I don't know why they can't save $1000 or why their families won't help them...Maybe because the minute they learned that they have the problem that they can't get the cure, 3 out of those 10 in the private insurance system, committed suicide cause they got depressed, 2 of them got mad and went on murderous rampage where they were killed by the police, 3 of them tried to rob a bank and were killed by the SWAT, 2 of them were evicted cause they couldn't afford the house.

But again, if you are satisfied in that system it is fine by me. I respect your opinion although I think that it is too brutal system for my taste.

**gunnut** · 11 Jun 08, 20:37

Originally Posted by Versus

But again, if you are satisfied in that system it is fine by me. I respect your opinion although I think that it is too brutal system for my taste.

So you are assuming the people, when given a choice, are too stupid to figure out what's good for them and how to care for themselves. Thus the government's role is to have a system that forces people to set aside their money so they can fund the care they need, should the need arise.

And of course, the government, made up of people, is smart enough to figure out what's good for the people, who are too stupid.

**glyn** · 11 Jun 08, 20:55

Originally Posted by gunnut

Sir, I'm sure the NHS is a fine service. I just don't like being forced to pay though taxes a one-size-fits-all health care plan. I'm all for a nationalized plan that has an opt out clause.

Well, there is no opt-out clause.

Even those who 'go private' still have to pay their NI.

**Versus** · 11 Jun 08, 20:57

Originally Posted by gunnut

So you are assuming the people, when given a choice, are too stupid to figure out what's good for them and how to care for themselves. Thus the government's role is to have a system that forces people to set aside their money so they can fund the care they need, should the need arise.

And of course, the government, made up of people, is smart enough to figure out what's good for the people, who are too stupid.

I don't know where do you find the traces of stupidity in such system. Safety net is created for the safety not for the damage, I mean that is logical. I see National Health Care as a security measure by which the society protects itself from bigger problems.

**Tarek Morgen** · 11 Jun 08, 20:58

How do you define "opt-out"? having no healthcare at all? Or switching to a private one you like?

**jtl310** · 11 Jun 08, 22:31

Originally Posted by gunnut

So you are assuming the people, when given a choice, are too stupid to figure out what's good for them and how to care for themselves. Thus the government's role is to have a system that forces people to set aside their money so they can fund the care they need, should the need arise.

And of course, the government, made up of people, is smart enough to figure out what's good for the people, who are too stupid.

I have read the past few pages not all 14 sorry dont have that much time on my hands.

But i see where you are coming from gunnut- My question is soo you believe in choice right? Then in your world of competing private health care providers, What happens to those unemployed? the mental sick? Those who cannot afford private health care? So in you plan where do these people fit? or do they just not receive any care at all?

And please dont state the government is going to foot their bill, because in the end that money is the tax payers money. So you are in the end footing the homeless persons health care. Only difference is the government would have to spend billions trying to manage a separate system for the "medical care of the poor and unemployed" ... which is completely redundant over private health care system its retarded!

In the end the point i am trying to make is, health care holds a persons life. The moment anyone tries to quantify a persons life in financial terms, people will die for the sake of money. Because i believe profits in a government organization can go back into improving the system, rather than profits going into rich peoples pockets so they can buy bigger houses. And please dont talk to me about non-profit health care, do you know how much money those doctors make?

But please answer the question of what happens to those who cannot afford health care, im curious to hear your answer.

**gunnut** · 11 Jun 08, 23:14

Charities. Charities funded by those evil, heartless industrialists who don't care about the poor. Charities funded by those individuals what are too stupid and mean to care for their fellow human beings. Charities with funds coming from people who truly care, run by people who truly care, staffed by people who truly care.

With less taxes, there will be more money in our pockets. Some people will be heartless and cruel and couldn't care less about their fellow citizens. But some of us will. And still some will be guilted into giving. But whatever the case, this giving is voluntary. This charitible act will be of the free will of the people.

Forced charity is not charity. It's extortion.

**gunnut** · 11 Jun 08, 23:15

Originally Posted by Tarek Morgen

How do you define "opt-out"? having no healthcare at all? Or switching to a private one you like?

Opt out as in I don't want to pay for Medicare. Give me my money back and I'll buy my own insurance.

**Versus** · 12 Jun 08, 08:38

Originally Posted by gunnut

Charities. Charities funded by those evil, heartless industrialists who don't care about the poor. Charities funded by those individuals what are too stupid and mean to care for their fellow human beings. Charities with funds coming from people who truly care, run by people who truly care, staffed by people who truly care.

With less taxes, there will be more money in our pockets. Some people will be heartless and cruel and couldn't care less about their fellow citizens. But some of us will. And still some will be guilted into giving. But whatever the case, this giving is voluntary. This charitible act will be of the free will of the people.

Forced charity is not charity. It's extortion.

?????
Good evening ladies and gentlemen, I am Bruce, Bruce Wayne...

**Shek** · 12 Jun 08, 15:23

Originally Posted by jtl310

In the end the point i am trying to make is, health care holds a persons life. The moment anyone tries to quantify a persons life in financial terms, people will die for the sake of money. Because i believe profits in a government organization can go back into improving the system, rather than profits going into rich peoples pockets so they can buy bigger houses. And please dont talk to me about non-profit health care, do you know how much money those doctors make?

People die for the sake of money everyday in state run health care systems. Canada doesn't provide some of the state of the art care that the US private system does because it costs too much. Britain doesn't provide some of the state of the art care the the US private system does because it costs too much. Etc., etc., etc.

You can't quantify a value of life is a red herring argument, as state run systems do this implicitly every single minute of every single day through the rationing of services and the choices that government officials make. Britain probably has the best bureaucratic decision making process through their quality-adjusted life years (QALY) calculation.

**Versus** · 12 Jun 08, 16:43

I'm taking back everything I said about US health care system.

Who needs an socialized medicine when they have Batman, taking care of poor and unemployed.

**Shek** · 12 Jun 08, 16:58

Originally Posted by Versus

I'm taking back everything I said about US health care system.

Who needs an socialized medicine when they have Batman, taking care of poor and unemployed.

What about the boy wonder, Robin?

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