Thread: Universal care cheaper and better than private insurance.

Originally Posted by JAD_333

I agree it would be embarrassing, but that is me and probably you're coming at it from your own beliefs too. But believe me, when you're hurting and no one is there to help, you'll go to churches, Salvation Army or anywhere help might be available. That's what a lot of poor folks around my neck of the woods do when they're up against the wall. Maybe you don't have as much contact with people like that. I can't avoid it being in construction. When you actually meet people who can't afford to see a doctor or get treatment, your perspective changes dramatically.

Perhaps. But isn't that what charities are for? Without the government safety net, more people would be willing to donate time and money to help out those in need. As of now, people can say they pay taxes to fund government programs to help these people so there's no need to donate to charities.

Besides, don't these people get the motivation to find jobs if they constantly go around looking for handouts?

I'm the first to admit I don't like to work. The reason I work is because I want health insurance, retirement, and some toys for myself. I'm not married, no kids, no debt, I really have very little need to work. If the government hands out health care and retirement like a good welfare state, I just might freeload for life.

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Well, one reason is that it costs so much to go to medical school. Make it free to the most qualified applicants. Why do people join the military? To get rich? Or to perform a service that is rewarding in itself? Ponder that, major.

I just haven't figured out what I want to do when I grow up

In seriousness, because of the experience that one gets in the military as an officer*, it is actually a pathway to getting rich if one so desires, although I'd agree that very few people join with this particular path being the main motivator, but it is in the back of not an insignificant amount of minds, I believe. Medical school is typically not a stepping stone to another profession, but an end in and of itself. So, I wouldn't take the analogy too far.

*I think that senior NCOs get shorted because they often don't have the sheepskin hanging on the wall. Many have the same or better skills than their officer peers at the company and field grade levels, but corporate American often doesn't see it this way, and so they don't get the lateral opportunities that officers do - the other factor is that a 30 year old captain has a lot more time to be productive for a company than a 40 year old first sergeant.

Originally Posted by gunnut

Perhaps. But isn't that what charities are for? Without the government safety net, more people would be willing to donate time and money to help out those in need. As of now, people can say they pay taxes to fund government programs to help these people so there's no need to donate to charities.

Besides, don't these people get the motivation to find jobs if they constantly go around looking for handouts?

I'm the first to admit I don't like to work. The reason I work is because I want health insurance, retirement, and some toys for myself. I'm not married, no kids, no debt, I really have very little need to work. If the government hands out health care and retirement like a good welfare state, I just might freeload for life.

I have to run, but just a quick reply. You are abolsutely right about human nature. I think the government's handout to taxpayers this year isn't the way to go, but by golly I ain't gonna send it back. ) Later.

Originally Posted by gunnut

Perhaps. But isn't that what charities are for? Without the government safety net, more people would be willing to donate time and money to help out those in need. As of now, people can say they pay taxes to fund government programs to help these people so there's no need to donate to charities.

Besides, don't these people get the motivation to find jobs if they constantly go around looking for handouts?

I'm the first to admit I don't like to work. The reason I work is because I want health insurance, retirement, and some toys for myself. I'm not married, no kids, no debt, I really have very little need to work. If the government hands out health care and retirement like a good welfare state, I just might freeload for life.

Where are all these freeloaders you see??? Do you consider people on social security freeloaders? The working poor on food stamps? The handicapped and disabled?
if they had people wouldn't of clamored for govt intervention. Even churches ask for govt dollars now...faith based initiatives. It didn't happen pre Roosevelt before we had a growth in social programs. The other issue is when the economy contracts charitble giving drops just when needs increase.

Originally Posted by Shek

I

*I think that senior NCOs get shorted because they often don't have the sheepskin hanging on the wall. Many have the same or better skills than their officer peers at the company and field grade levels, but corporate American often doesn't see it this way, and so they don't get the lateral opportunities that officers do - the other factor is that a 30 year old captain has a lot more time to be productive for a company than a 40 year old first sergeant.

It's the same in private industry. Some trades people know more than some engineers they deal with

Originally Posted by gunnut

Why do you insist on democrat-esque anecdotal examples? Are you saying we can eliminate these rare occurances in a government health care system? Are you saying countries with a national health care systems do not have these problems?

.

Ask shek it was his analogy I borrowed it, Why do you insist on demonizing half the country?

Originally Posted by ba1025

Where are all these freeloaders you see??? Not yet, but I will be one if there's national health care, and I won't be alone Do you consider people on social security freeloaders? Only if they survive solely on SS The working poor on food stamps? Are they trying to better themselves so they don't need food stamps? Or are they working just enough to collect them? The handicapped and disabled? Define disabled. As of now the ADA defines just about anyone not completely healthy and normal as disabled.
if they had people wouldn't of clamored for govt intervention. If there was no government intervention they would have had to look for people. Government aid is too simple to come by. Fill out a form. No begging needed. Just talk to some faceless bureaucrat who shuffles paper and you get your money. Even churches ask for govt dollars now...faith based initiatives. Because people pay taxes that fund government programs so why should they donate more money to help those already covered by government programs? It didn't happen pre Roosevelt before we had a growth in social programs. I don't understand this sentence The other issue is when the economy contracts charitble giving drops just when needs increase.

Likewise when the economy contracts you should cut taxes to help those very same people who fund government programs.

Originally Posted by JAD_333

I have to go out and pound some nails, so I'll read Kling's piece when I get back.

I take it that this is a figure of speech?

I bought a finish nailer when I was putting some crown in my house a few years back, and after finishing, I wondered how you could have done it before the day and age of the air compressor

Originally Posted by ba1025

Ask shek it was his analogy I borrowed it, Why do you insist on demonizing half the country?

Incorrect. Shek used the hotdog analogy to explain the diminishing returns principle. This principle applies to everything in everyday life regarding human desires.

You are using a sob story with an unnamed person who may or may not exist, disregarding all statistics, to elicit an emotional response. Anecdotal stories are not analogies.

Originally Posted by Shek

I take it that this is a figure of speech?

I bought a finish nailer when I was putting some crown in my house a few years back, and after finishing, I wondered how you could have done it before the day and age of the air compressor

Funny little tool. Some of the better are made by Estwing. Come in various sizes from 16 - 28 oz. Called a hammer.

Often easier and faster than finding power/setting up a generator, pulling out the compressor and hoses.

Nails in a pouch, hammer in hand. Never run out of gas, air or the right nail strips.

That said I do like my Framing Gun

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Funny little tool. Some of the better are made by Estwing. Come in various sizes from 16 - 28 oz. Called a hammer.

Often easier and faster than finding power/setting up a generator, pulling out the compressor and hoses.

Nails in a pouch, hammer in hand. Never run out of gas, air or the right nail strips.

That said I do like my Framing Gun

I actually had bought a Paslode, although when I get back to the house and finish out the basement, I'll buy a small compressor and do it the "old fashion" way with the gun attached to the hose

Originally Posted by JAD_333

I agree it would be embarrassing, but that is me and probably you're coming at it from your own beliefs too. But believe me, when you're hurting and no one is there to help, you'll go to churches, Salvation Army or anywhere help might be available. That's what a lot of poor folks around my neck of the woods do when they're up against the wall. Maybe you don't have as much contact with people like that. I can't avoid it being in construction. When you actually meet people who can't afford to see a doctor or get treatment, your perspective changes dramatically.

We work around the same group of people.

But my observations are that there are few truly poor that cannot afford at least basic medical care. I know that it is different in W Va.

There are lots of poor that make bad choices on what to spend their money on. The "payday rich" as some call them. On payday they are at the store buying 2 cartons of cigarettes and a case of beer. On monday they are complaining about how their tooth hurts and they cannot afford to get it fixed. Not thinking that if they had done without the smokes for one payday every 6 months and used that money to have their teeth cleaned, they wouldn't be in the bind they now find themselves in. I have no sympathy
for those people. Same with the ones that spit kids out at the cyclic rate, when they cannot afford the ones they have.

Originally Posted by Shek

I actually had bought a Paslode, although when I get back to the house and finish out the basement, I'll buy a small compressor and do it the "old fashion" way with the gun attached to the hose

I've got 2 of their F-350 Framing guns. They are good guns.

I have yet heard anyone say good things about the fuel cell guns. Although I do see them on TV shows alot.

You can get one of those 3 gun (Finish, Brad, Stapler) and a pancake compressor kits for around $300.00 all the time. I have seen HD
put the Porter Cable kit on sale for $225. Rent a framing gun if you really need one.

Or you could get real old fashion. Predrill all your trim pieces then use a little 12 oz finish hammer and a nail set.

It will get you more "In tune" with your house.)