Thread: Democrats: What is the most politically-advantageous number of dead US troops?

Originally Posted by JAD_333

Originally Posted by smilingassassin

Even the medias been covering the drastic drop in violence, is Casey in denial or something?!!

They're all in denial. Just listen to the Vegas debate the other day. They're saying the same stuff they said before the surge with the same hand-wringing intensity. Even the liberal press is reporting the improvements over there, grudgingly, but enough to make Casey and company sound like they're out of step. I sense the public sees it too.[/QUOTE]

Its official then I guess, the Democrats are living in their own riverie where everything is failing any only they are intellectual enough to save everyone.

Originally Posted by JAD_333

It did briefly after the Brits left, and it continued as a sham democracy even under Saddam. Of course it was all play acting. The evidence is that the Iraqis want the real thing. The large turnouts for two elections held so far since Saddam's fall is proof. Granted the tradition of democracy is next to nil in the region, but tradition begins somewhere. After what the Iraqis went through under Saddam, it's hard to imagine them going back to dictatorial rule. [Emphasis mine. - Bluesman] Our presense in Iraq over the next decade, however reduced, will help their democracy adjust and grow roots. Look at the US example; the first format failed. There was even talk in the former colonies of realigning into different nations. We fianlly ended up with a new constitution that worked. The same growing pains are at work in Iraq.

Here's Hitchens, right on time, to back up your point. Look for the bolded red:

fighting words
Something To Give Thanks For
Good news from Iraq.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Nov. 19, 2007, at 10:47 AM ET
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A few weeks ago, in Britain's Prospect magazine, the paper's foreign editor, Bartle Bull, published a bold essay saying that the high tide of violence in Iraq was essentially behind us and that the ebb had disclosed some interesting things. First, the Iraqi people as a whole had looked into the abyss of civil war and had drawn back from the brink. Second, the majority of Sunni Arabs had realized that their involvement with al-Qaida forces was not a patriotic "insurgency" but was instead a horrific mistake and had exposed their society to the most sadistic and degraded element in the entire Muslim world. Third, the Shiite militias had also come to appreciate that they had overplayed their hand. There remained, according to Bull, an appalling level of criminal and antisocial violence, but essentially Iraq was agreed on a rough new dispensation whereby ethnic and social compromise would determine events and where subversive outside interference would not be welcomed.

I read the article and admired its nerve, but I didn't really choose to believe it. It didn't appear to me that things had yet bottomed out, and it didn't seem believable that the essential sectarianism of the Maliki regime, illustrated so graphically by its crude execution of Saddam Hussein, could be explained away. Worst of all, the exodus of so many secular or qualified or educated Iraqis (perhaps as many as 2.5 million exiles living in Syria or Jordan or farther away) seemed to threaten a long period of social and cultural decline, a sort of Road Warrior situation in which only the parties of God would benefit.

Keeping all this in mind, it nonetheless does begin to look as if Iraqis may in fact have started to recover command over their own destiny, and also as if America may have helped them to do so. The surge is only a part of this story. Quite obviously, if the Sunnis of Anbar Province had not of their own volition turned on the hideous forces of al-Qaida, then no amount of extra troops could have made the difference. But some combination of the two things appears to have altered the chemistry, and not just in that province, and all the reporters and soldiers I can get hold of (who include some direly skeptical people in both categories) seem agreed on one thing: The forces of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi stink in the nostrils of the Arab world, and have been—here I borrow some words of Thomas Paine—"in point of generalship … outwitted, and in point of fortitude outdone." Bin Ladenism in Iraq has been dealt a stinging defeat. Surely this is something to celebrate.

For the rest, one has to piece together an anecdote here and a bit of patchwork there. Last weekend, the London Sunday Times had this to say under the byline of Hala Jaber:

Most of Baghdad's street lamps went on last week for the first time in years. It was a small improvement in the quality of life, but in the twinkling light the Iraqi capital looked a little less menacing and a lot more familiar. Ahmed Chalabi, the former darling of American neoconservatives who lobbied hard for the overthrow of Saddam and later became deputy prime minister, toured the city with quiet satisfaction. … Earlier this month Nouri al-Maliki, the Iraqi prime minister, put Chalabi in charge of restoring essential services to the capital.

Aha, you say, the Murdoch press will never give up on its favorite Iraqi stooge. All right, try this from the Los Angeles Times of Nov. 13:

The first stop on [Chalabi's] itinerary this day is the compound of Sheik Nadeem Hatim Sultan, leader of the Tamimi tribe in the Taji region north of the capital. Until two months ago, the area was a hot spot for ethnic violence and an outpost for the insurgent group Al Qaeda in Iraq. U.S.-led troops routed insurgents under the new security push, and tribal sheiks fought to regain control of their community. Sectarian fires have cooled now and residents are eager to rebuild the area's economy, fueled by lush farmland and about 15 textile factories, and to restore its public services. Chalabi is received like royalty.

To have savaged and discredited al-Qaida in an open fight and to have taken down a fascist Baath Party, which betrayed its pseudosecularism by forging an alliance with al-Qaida, is to have scored an impressive victory on any terms. However, the price of this achievement was often the indulgence of some excessive conduct on the part of the Shiite parties and militias. The next stage must be the reining-in of the Sadrists and the discouragement of Iranian support for such groups. Again, one hardly dares to hope, but there are some promising signs. The Maliki government is not using undue haste or sectarian demagogy in the case of Sultan Hashim Ahmed al-Tai, Saddam Hussein's former defense minister, sentenced to death but not yet executed. Many Sunni Kurds and Arabs, either opposed to the death penalty on principle or opposed in this case, seem for now to have prevailed. And "the cabinet," according to the Nov. 18 New York Times, "has sent legislation to the Parliament softening the de-Baathification law that had prevented former Baathists' working in government jobs." I wonder how many people, reading that ordinary sentence about "the cabinet" and "the Parliament," as reported also in independent Iraqi media, have any idea what it means when compared with the insane proceedings of the totalitarian abattoir state that was Iraq until 2003.

As I began by saying, I am not at all certain that any of this apparently good news is really genuine or will be really lasting. However, I am quite sure both that it could be true and that it would be wonderful if it were to be true. What worries me about the reaction of liberals and Democrats is not the skepticism, which is pardonable, but the dank and sinister impression they give that the worse the tidings, the better they would be pleased. The latter mentality isn't pardonable and ought not to be pardoned, either. [And I bolded THIS bit because it's exactly related to and aligned with the entire point of this thread. - Bluesman]

Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair and the author of God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.

Article URL: Good news from Iraq. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine


Copyright 2007 Washingtonpost.Newsweek Interactive Co. LLC

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Here's Hitchens, right on time, to back up your point. Look for the bolded red:

What worries me about the reaction of liberals and Democrats is not the skepticism, which is pardonable, but the dank and sinister impression they give that the worse the tidings, the better they would be pleased. The latter mentality isn't pardonable and ought not to be pardoned, either.

If he can see it, it can't be far off when the mainstream media sees it.

If the picture continues to improve and Iraqis turn increasingly to rebuilding their personal lives, we will be increasingly better off for having perservered. Our troops will be proud of their achievement and Amercians, even many of those who opposed the war, will feel a sense of accomplishment. There's more, much more, but that's a good beginning. I was particularly struck by the part about AQ being exposed to the Arab world as ugly and cruel.

Thanks for the article. Right on time.

Democrats continue their campaign to defeat and kill our troops. Think I'm wrong? From Defense Link:

The director of the Joint Improvised Explosive Device Defeat Organization told reporters that his organization will have to stop funding new initiatives to protect soldiers from IED attacks.
Defense Link reported:

If Congress does not come through with a supplemental bill President Bush will sign, money for defeating the largest killers of American personnel in the war on terror will run out Dec. 1, a senior official said here today.
Retired Army Gen. Montgomery C. Meigs, director of the Joint Improvised Explosive Device Defeat Organization, told Pentagon reporters that the organization will have to stop funding new initiatives and just maintain operations.

“We’re out of (funding) new stuff now; we’re going to have trouble sustaining current contracts after the first of December,” Meigs said.

The anti-IED organization needs the funding to sustain operations and to pay for equipment fielded but not yet turned over to the services for funding, Meigs said. For example, he said, his organization funds the Guardian man-portable jammer, the contractors to service it, and the training in the system.

The organization tests new projects, ideas, ways of doing business and equipment against IEDs. If they prove effective, the organization is nimble enough to quickly can get the equipment to the hands of servicemembers. Meigs said the organization has enough money “to keep the lights on” through April. The organization is funded via supplemental spending bills.

“What I can’t fund today will not go into the field next summer or next fall,” Meigs said. “It’ll be delayed by the amount of time we wait for funding.”

This is occurring at a time when IED attacks have dropped 55 percent from their high in June. The average daily attacks are down 42 percent. “That is really good news,” Meigs said. “This is coincident with the surge.” The overall peak in June and July of this year, and IED attacks have been dropping steadily ever since.

“This is a function of more soldiers on the ground being more aggressive,” the general said.

The most positive indicator in Iraq is the number of enemy weapons caches being discovered, he said. “This year cache finds are up significantly,” he said. “And we’re finding big caches. If you can damage (the enemy’s) wholesale system, it’s a lot harder for him to operate.” In 2006, the coalition and Iraqi forces found a total of 2,667 caches. This year so far, the number is 5,364.

And have y'all heard that Congress is attempting to cut off aid to Ehtiopia? From Ace of Spades:

This measure -- an attempt to cut off our aid to ally-against-terrorism Ethiopia is part of an unmistakable pattern of Democrats seeking to undermine our allies and aid our bloodiest enemies.

They say one should not attribute to conspiracy what can be more easily explained by simple stupidity, but a long enough pattern of stupidity starts to look an awful lot like knowing and willful malice.

With Democrats insisting on cutting vital money used to protect troops in the field from IEDs -- money that will run out in December -- precisely how long are we supposed to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are merely "misguidedly idealistic" rather than willfully callous about our troops' very lives and the nation's security?

THEN



SEN. CHRIS DODD (D-CT): “A ‘Surge’ Of American Troops Will Do Nothing.” “The proposal being considered by the administration to add between 15,000 and 30,000 soldiers in a ‘surge’ of American troops will do nothing to address this issue.” (Sen. Dodd, “Begin Withdrawing, Redeploying Troops Now,” The Des Moines Register, 12/24/06)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL) On The Surge: “…The President’s Strategy Will Not Work.” “What was striking to me in listening to all the testimony that was provided, was the almost near unanimity that the president's strategy will not work.” (Foreign Relations Committee, U.S. Senate, Hearing, 01/24/07)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA) On The Surge: “I Tell You What: I’m Confident It Will Not Work.” (Foreign Relations Committee, U.S. Senate, Hearing, 01/24/07)

SEN. TED KENNEDY (D-MA): “The Surge Was Supposed To Bring Stability, Essential To Political Reconciliation And Economic Reconstruction. It Has Not And It Will Not.” (Sen. Kennedy, Congressional Record, S.5367, 05/01/07)

SEN. JOE BIDEN (D-DE): “The Surge Has Not Worked And Will Not Work.” “The surge has not worked and will not work because its basic premise – to give time for a strong central government to take hold – is fatally flawed.” (Sen. Biden, Press Release, 06/01/07)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): “The Proposed Surge In Troops ‘Is A Sad, Ominous Echo Of Something We've Lived Through In This Country,’ Said Durbin.” (Dori Meinert, “Durbin, Obama Oppose Proposed Surge In Troops To Iraq,” Copley News Service, 01/05/07)



NOW



FOX NEWS / OPINION DYNAMICS POLL: 59% Of Americans Believe The Recent Increase In U.S. Troops Has Led To Improvements In The Situation In Iraq. (Fox News / Opinion Dynamics, “WH 2008, Iraq” 11/15/07)

THE NEW YORK TIMES: “The security improvements in most neighborhoods are real. Days now pass without a car bomb, after a high of 44 in the city in February. The number of bodies appearing on Baghdad’s streets has plummeted to about 5 a day, from as many as 35 eight months ago, and suicide bombings across Iraq fell to 16 in October, half the number of last summer and down sharply from a recent peak of 59 in March, the American military says.” (Damien Cave & Alissa Rubin, “Baghdad Starts To Exhale As Security Improves,” The New York Times, 11/20/07)

THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE: “Attacks in Iraq have fallen 55 percent, to a level not seen since January 2006. Violence has fallen in some areas to its lowest levels since the summer of 2005. The number of Iraqi civilian casualties has fallen 65 percent, and Baghdad has witnessed a 75 percent drop since June.” (Liz Sly, “U.S. Urges Iraqi Leaders To Capitalize On Drop In Violence,” The Chicago Tribune, 11/19/07)

THE NEW YORK TIMES: “The American military said Sunday that the weekly number of attacks in Iraq had fallen to the lowest level since just before the February 2006 bombing of the Shiite shrine in Samarra, an event commonly used as a benchmark for the country’s worst spasm of bloodletting after the American invasion nearly five years ago. Data released at a news conference in Baghdad showed that attacks had declined to the lowest level since January 2006. It is the third week in a row that attacks have been at this reduced level.” (Carl Buckley & Michael Gordon, “U.S. Says Attacks In Iraq Fell To The Level Of Feb. 2006,” The New York Times, 11/19/07)

AFP: “Declines in Iraqi civilian casualties and a sharp reduction in bomb and mortar attacks have sparked optimism that the capital is at last starting to revive. US military commanders attribute the fall in violence to a "surge" of American troops on the ground, their decision to set up small military posts in neighborhoods, and the increasing number of Iraqis joining US forces in anti-insurgent alliances.” (“Baghdad By Night -- Juice Bars, Neon Lights, Bustling Streets,” AFP, 11/18/07)

LA TIMES: “Despite persistent sectarian tensions in the Iraqi government, war-weary Sunnis and Shiites are joining hands at the local level to protect their communities from militants on both sides, U.S. military officials say. … Here in Qarghulia, a rural community east of Baghdad, the results are palpable. Killings are down dramatically and public confidence is reviving. ‘Sunnis-Shiites, no problem,’ said Obede Ali Hussein, 22, who stood at a checkpoint built by the U.S. Army along the Diyala River. ‘We want to protect our neighborhood.’” (Doug Smith & Saif Rasheed, “Sects Unite To Battle Al Qaeda In Iraq,” Los Angeles Times, 11/19/07)

REUTERS: “With violence levels dropping across the city, Baghdad's hard-working ambulance drivers now find time to sit and sip tea instead of each rushing to four or five emergency calls a day. ‘Today the situation has changed for the best. There are ambulances that sometimes do not go out on duty for two days,’ said Kais Mohammed, head of an emergency services centre that covers all of southern Baghdad and some areas west.” (Waleed Ibrahim, “Baghdad's Busy Ambulance Drivers Catch Their Breath,” Reuters, 11/18/07)

INVESTOR’S BUSINESS DAILY: “Winning: News from Iraq gets better by the day, but the media have done their best to downplay the turnaround and congressional Democrats have basically pulled the covers over their heads and pretended it doesn't exist. There's an eery silence out there about what's going on in Iraq. It's almost as if the silence is, well, intentional. ... Meanwhile, as if that vote wasn't enough, Democrats ripped Iraq's government — apparently oblivious to what's going on in Baghdad. ‘Every place you go you hear about no progress being made in Iraq,’ Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid said Thursday. ‘The government is stalemated today, as it was six months ago, as it was two years ago. It is not getting better; it is getting worse.’ Virtually nothing in those three sentences is true — unless you replace ‘Iraq’ with ‘Congress.’” (Editorial, “Progress, Progress And More Progress,” Investor’s Business Daily, 11/19/07)

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: A “Brigade Has “Begun Heading Home”: “The current total of 20 combat brigades is shrinking to 19 as the 3rd Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division, operating in volatile Diyala province, leaves. The U.S. command in Baghdad announced on Saturday that the brigade had begun heading home to Fort Hood, Texas, and that its battle space will be taken by another brigade already operating in Iraq.” (“US Military Reversing Iraq Troop Surge,” The Associated Press, 11/13/07)

USA TODAY: “Roadside bombs” have “Declined dramatically”: “The number of roadside bombs found in Iraq declined dramatically in August and September from earlier this year, and U.S. officials say the discoveries of thousands of ammunition caches might explain the drop.” (“Roadside bombs in Iraq fall sharply,” USA Today, 11/13/07)

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: “Rocket and mortar attacks,” “Civilian deaths” have “Dropped sharply since summer.”: “Rocket and mortar attacks have fallen to their lowest level in nearly two years. Civilian deaths have dropped sharply since summer. Shoppers are venturing out, even in Baghdad's most dangerous neighborhoods. (“Analysis: Violence Down in Baghdad,” The Associated Press, 11/13/07)

Or maybe it was the logistics map US forces found when they killed Zarqawi.

Originally Posted by Julie

Or maybe it was the logistics map US forces found when they killed Zarqawi.

Zarqawi died 8 June, 2006. Check out the dates of those quotes.

And whatever it is was that caused your Democrats to absolutely blow their predictions (and in the act of pronouncing our defeat, to help kill additional US servicemembers), it turns out they were WRONG.

And if it were only that they're not very good military odds-makers, that would be one thing. In fact, they were attempting then what they're continuing to try to do now: lose the war as quickly as possible.

Originally Posted by Julie

Or maybe it was the logistics map US forces found when they killed Zarqawi.

You have got to be kidding me.

Julie...

Wow...just wow.

INVESTOR’S BUSINESS DAILY: “Winning: News from Iraq gets better by the day, but the media have done their best to downplay the turnaround and congressional Democrats have basically pulled the covers over their heads and pretended it doesn't exist.

This just about sums up the dem's state of denial, or perhaps better yet, reflects their disappointment that their predictions (read, hopes) didn't materialize.

The most significant development in terms of public opinion is that 59% of the American people now believe the surge has been effective.

Good summary, blues.

Originally Posted by JAD_333

The most significant development in terms of public opinion is that 59% of the American people now believe the surge has been effective.

And think for just a moment what that means in terms of political trouble for 'em. ANY rational and objective person, even if he/she doesn't share my view that it was an attempt to make a self-fulfilling prophecy, have simply got to conclude that this gang has the worst possible judgement on the most crucial aspect of government's chief duty: DEFENSE.

This is why they're trying to make certain we lose the war: if America triumphs, it validates Dubya's 'stubborness', and exposes the fact that at the very least, Democrats have no business even giving advice on matters of war.

And actually, I believe it's WAY worse than merely being wrong.

Good summary, blues.

Thanks, man.

Originally Posted by Julie

Or maybe it was the logistics map US forces found when they killed Zarqawi.

Are you THAT invested in failure, Julie? When they DID kill Zarqawi, were you pleased or saddened or angry?

-dale