LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With QuoteCorrection, it has to stop being forced, and become voluntary. Most people could afford to pay for school themselves, and the remaining poor could easily be covered by charity.Originally Posted by LibertyBelle
Sam Brownback - senior Kansas senator
Rudy Giuliani - former New York mayor
Mike Huckabee - former Arkansas governor
John McCain - senior Arizona senator
Mitt Romney - former Mass. governor
Tommy Thompson - former Wis. governor
Ron Paul - Texas congressman
Simplisticly? You mean like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpr1l6yWDyk
Correction, it has to stop being forced, and become voluntary. Most people could afford to pay for school themselves, and the remaining poor could easily be covered by charity.
Wow, what a simplistic answer. I guess Brian the dog was right! LOL
That doesn't make him an expert on it...in fact he's never even read the Commission's report!
Independent of those whom they serve, the one who give them the money.
What, no comments on Rudy's involvement with the NAU, and HUGO CHAVEZ?
Hrmmph. Some conservative! As I stated originally, Ron is the only conservative and honest person in the whole race.
That last article I posted really was so typical of Rudy double-speak I cringed when I read it. It did not even make sense!
For a nice concise history of forced schooling in America, see:
How did government get so involved
From that:
Albert Shanker, former president of the American Federation of Teachers, said this:
"It's time to admit that public education operates like a planned economy, a bureaucratic system in which everybody's role is spelled out in advance and there are few incentives for innovation and productivity. It's no surprise that our school system doesn't improve: it more resembles the communist economy than our own market economy."
[QUOTE=forsytjr;376111]I was referring to the mindset of an influential signer of the Constitution to illustrate that your view was not shared by at least one of the founding fathers. Here, read about it yourself.So, you are using an example from before the Constitution was created to say that the Constitution does not prohibit using state money to help people? It was the Pennsylvania legislature - so the colony rather than the state. Did they even have a constitution?
Pennsylvania Hospital History: Stories - Nation's First Hospital
Allows for what I said it didn't disallow? Come on. More sophistry. Show where it expressly forbids giving free aid to people in need.Can you please site the clause in the U.S. Constitution that allows for this?
A rose by any other name...Collective ownership is the core tenant. And forced mass schooling of children transfers ownership (not completely) of children to the state. The idea is that the government controls the kids, and they are schooled in order to serve the state or the collective. Now, I did freely admit that this idea did not only come from the Marxists - it also came from Prussia and from Sparta.
I am free to toss the word free all I want to, but to answer your question: You're poor, so poor you don't have a cent to your name, no job, no assets. You own nothing and earn nothing. But your kid can still go to public school.Now, how many times can you toss around the word "free", when there is no such thing as a free lunch? How is education free? Where does that money come from?
That's free.
Depends. People are dying of AIDs. Yes. People are made homeless by Katrina. Yes. People are dying for lack of medical access. Yes. Welfare queens are out. Shirkers are out. People who won't look for a job are out.Now, I'm all for helping out people, do it quite regularly. But is it the proper role of the government?
Discretion is called for when giving aid. Hanging a sign up on the door saying NO to all comers is wrong.
Yes and No. Is pvt. charity more efficient and ideally better. Yes. Can pvt. charity handle Katrinas, 9/11s and the medical needs of the country? No.Can government do it more effectively than private charity?
It is better the people get the help when they desperately need it.And if the government is going to spend $ to help people, is it better to do it on a local (town/state) or federal level?
The marxists couldn't do much on any level and as for what the founders wanted concerning the issue under discussion, I gave you an example in Franklin. Now give me an example.Well the collectivist marxist would want to do it on the federal level, while our founders wanted it to happen on a local level.
. We seem to have in common a dim view of public school education and federal control over it. But how public education is conducted in terms of cirriculum and standards is a different issue than the core idea that public education should be free. I think local control is probably better and that academic standards are generally too low. Courses in history, language, literature, civics, math and science should be at the top of the cirriculum.Now, back onto education...
You can have the last say. I'm done.
Last edited by JAD_333; 24 May 07, at 03:58.
Really? What incentives exist in your system for this to occur?
And what part is voluntary?
Fair enough. I think its safe to say many of the founders wanted to help people. But that was not put into the U.S. Constitution. I have already allowed for that to happen at the state and local levels, depending on their constitutions.
Amendment IXAllows for what I said it didn't disallow? Come on. More sophistry. Show where it expressly forbids giving free aid to people in need.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Since you can't point to where it is allowed (since it doesn't exist), these amendments prevent the feds from doing it. By X, they don't have the power to do it.
Fair enough, but why do we pay for EVERYONE to go to school? And why does the government run the schools? Why not something like a food stamps program, where the people that can't afford it get the money, and go to whatever school they want?I am free to toss the word free all I want to, but to answer your question: You're poor, so poor you don't have a cent to your name, no job, no assets. You own nothing and earn nothing. But your kid can still go to public school.
That's free.
I never said that we shouldn't help, and quit saying that I did. I said it is not the roll of government (unless on a local level, according to the states constitution). FEMA was a disaster in Katrina. They pushed aside the local response teams and bungled everything up.Depends. People are dying of AIDs. Yes. People are made homeless by Katrina. Yes. People are dying for lack of medical access. Yes. Welfare queens are out. Shirkers are out. People who won't look for a job are out.
Discretion is called for when giving aid. Hanging a sign up on the door saying NO to all comers is wrong.
Well, I urge you to study the response to hurricanes before FEMA, and after. And don't get me started on medicine - we have a government enforced monopoly because of the American Medical Association. They limit the # of doctors that can get educated each year. We've got an awful legal system to deal with malpractice. We have third party payments that pay $0.85 of every $1, which drives up cost. All this because of government involvement, and now you want more government involvement. Have you ever even heard of Reagan?Yes and No. Is pvt. charity more efficient and ideally better. Yes. Can pvt. charity handle Katrinas, 9/11s and the medical needs of the country? No.
An example of what? In New England prior to forced public schooling, literacy rates were >98%. Private schools, home schools, local public schools made this happen. Now, our literacy rates are in the tubes. Before the creation of the regulation of the AMA, medicine and doctors were cheap. Volunteer religious hospitals handled the poor.The marxists couldn't do much on any level and as for what the founders wanted concerning the issue under discussion, I gave you an example in Franklin. Now give me an example.
Glad we agree on something (federal control is bad)!!!! But, no offense, I don't want you, or anyone else determine my child's curriculum. What would you have wrong with a food stamps type approach, such as school vouchers? That would make education "free" but allow the parents to control it.We seem to have in common a dim view of public school education and federal control over it. But how public education is conducted in terms of cirriculum and standards is a different issue than the core idea that public education should be free. I think local control is probably better and that academic standards are generally too low. Courses in history, language, literature, civics, math and science should be at the top of the cirriculum.
The same incentives that are motivating you to vote for more taxes to help people! If the majority of Americans are willing to vote to pay taxes to help people, then they should be willing to pay themselves. Keep in mind that the costs of most things you are talking about are way higher than they need to be because of government involvement. So you could still afford charity and have some money left over. Examples. Of the money in the welfare program, only 30% goes to recipients. For schools, the average cost of a public school is roughly 2x the average cost of a private school. Etc, etc.
Our town just flooded, and roads were washed out. We could have had a town meeting and paid for the repairs pretty easily, and rapidly. Instead, FEMA comes in, and we are stuck waiting a couple of months for them to decide were the $ goes, and if we are going to get it. We would have been much better off if they just stayed out of our business.
Ron Paul is a nut.My candidate is not here. I vote for Ron Paul.
He was the winner of the first debate at MSNBC (46%) and second in the second debate (26%) to Romney's 30%.
He is the only real conservative in the race.
According to Alexa data his website has more traffic that any of the candidates from either side, he has the most subscriptions on YouTube.
I think you need to add his name to your poll.
Thanks
Ron Paul's supporters are nuts.
Ron Paul's supporters spammed the hell out of the polls and are organized to run up artificial numbers that have been cited above.
And Ron Paul will NEVER, EVER be President.
Thank Gawd.
Because he's NUTS.
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell
I'm not voting in America at all, and if I was I'd be voting for lower taxes.
The problems I have are trying to fit your examples and analogies into my own experiences with a completely different representative system.
Take the school systems for instance. Here, the schools, both private and public, are funded by the government per child. A lump sum per child is paid to either type as long as they achieve the benchmarks set by the Government.
In my suburb, which is the second richest in the richest city, there is a private and public school, my wee girl goes to the public one. Both achieve the same measurable levels of achievement, but the public school imposes charges of about $500 on me per annum for expenses outside the normal. The private school however, would impose charges of $12,000 per annum on me.
The best explanation I have heard for this disparity, when the academic achievement is the same, is that the state schools have the advantage of bulk buying so can drive down costs, both on infrastructure and teaching related costs. I would expect that the high levels of education achieved by both schools came down to the parents abilities and expectation for their children.
For those who could not afford your private school system, you say that charity could cover this problem. However, state funding does not give the money to the parents, it gives it through services to the children, whereas the charity system would give it as cash to the parents, who in all likelyhood would not pass it on to the children. Unless of course you set up a bureaucratic system to distribute the funding through services, in which case you're back where you started.
Also: what guarantees do you have that through the charitable system that all children receive adequate funding, or how do you decide which children do and do not receive funding?
In other words, it's cheaper and just as effective to have a tax funded state administered free market modeled school than a private one.
As for roading, apart from state highways, that cost here is born by council rates, as is stormwater, sewerage, water etc, unless some natural disaster overwhelms the local infrastructure, when the state steps in.
As I say, it's difficult for me to get my head around your system, as analogies between our councils and your states, and our Government and your federation don't really work.
Our economies, ignoring scale, are also markedly different, as we have very few subsidies and no tariffs, and can still manage to put food in your and Europe's supermarkets at both a lower price and LOL, less carbon footprints
What I'm saying I guess is my experience is that it's better to evaluate strategies on their merits for each specific instance, rather than thinking that one ideology fits all, hence my babies with the bathwater comment.
Welcome back Blues, I've missed ya
Bizzy as a mofo, man. Just graduated BluesDaughter#1 yesterday, and saw Lt Bluesman (Back to San Antonio for seven more weeks of skool) and the Blueskid (back to Atlanta, until he leaves for Basic Training/Pony Soldier Skool at Ft Knox in July) off to the airport today.Welcome back Blues, I've missed ya
Now, I've got to get this whole dam' household packed up and moved, the house rented out, find a new job out thar in California...and keep from losin' my mind while I'm doing it all.
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell
Would it help if I sent you a turn? Or merely complicate? I have my PC back up and running.
-dale
It is free, thats what your not getting. To the people who have the least and need the most (kids) and on whom rests the greatest future burden it doesn't cost anything. Nor does it cost the tax payers a dime who can rest easy that thier off spring will never be denied a needed medical treatment (Federal law only mandates stablisation and life saving treatment not simply needed) and who can also rest easy that when these kids enter the work force in good health they will by thier productivity add to the tax payers precious 401K's.
Giving drugs to the elderly is an exercise in civi virture that will not benifit Joe and Joan taxpayer one dime, providing good medical care, a quality education, and a balanced diet however is an investment not a give away.
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
thats the pre-amble, now how exaclty to you do those things highlighted in bold if you are not willing to tax those who have (and who make much of thier money off of those who have not) in order to provide basic services the people need and desire as expressed through thier sovergien vote?
Article 1 section 8
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
investing public funds to insure the continuation of the workforce is not theft, its the goverments duty to levy such taxes. medical care, education, and nutition for kids is not pork its sound planning.
Yep.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Share this thread with friends: