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Thread: Senate backs 2008 withdrawal

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Senate backs 2008 withdrawal

    Damned if we do, damned if we don't...
    Senate backs Iraq withdrawal date

    The US Senate has passed a bill calling for all US combat troops to leave Iraq within a year, defying a veto threat.

    The Senate vote came only an hour after George W Bush made his third vow in less than a week to veto such a law.

    "I'll veto a bill that restricts our commanders on the ground... a bill that doesn't fund our troops," he said.

    The vote of 51 to 47 links funding for the war to a goal of getting US combat troops out of Iraq by March 2008. The House has passed a similar bill.

    The Senate bill approves $122bn (£62bn) in funds - mostly for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq - but also orders the president to begin withdrawing troops from Iraq within 120 days of passage of the bill.

    It sets a goal of pulling all combat troops out of Iraq by the end of March of next year, but does not explicitly demand their removal.

    The House and Senate must now reconcile their two versions of the bill and send the result to Mr Bush.

    If he refuses to sign it, the bill will not become law.

    The votes in both the House and Senate were close enough to suggest Congress will not be able to override his threatened veto.

    Challenge to Bush

    But the fact both houses were able to approve deadlines for bringing the troops home constitutes the strongest challenge Congress has mounted to Mr Bush's war policy.
    Source: BBC NEWS | Americas | Senate backs Iraq withdrawal date

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    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    We should make Pelosi and Reid go over to Bagdad on the day of withdraw to officially sign over the control of Iraq to Al Maliki, under the watchful eyes of Al Sadr's gunmen.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Further proof that Democrats are not serious about governing.

    -dale

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    They are an internal enemy; they are traitors.

    We might have turned this thang around (it had already started and was going well, too), but we' have no chance now. No Iraqi will bet on us from now until we officially defeat ourselves. All that's left is to tally our dead until we leave.

    The Democrats have defeated the United States of America's armed forces.
    "The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
    - George Orwell

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    Again.
    "The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
    - George Orwell

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    Ray
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    The Boston Globe

    KEVIN RYAN
    The 'withdrawal' that isn't

    By Kevin Ryan | March 29, 2007

    IN JANUARY, President Bush announced the start of a "surge" that wasn't really a surge. Now the House and Senate have responded with a "withdrawal" that isn't really a withdrawal.

    The 'withdrawal' that isn't - The Boston Globe
    Interesting read.

    The article is by a Brigadier of the US.


    There are only four missions that US troops are performing in Iraq: the three above that Congress is willing to continue and the one they're not -- keeping Sunni s and Shi'ites from killing each other. The truth is that up until the current surge and accompanying change of operations, the United States has been trying to do what Congress is demanding -- turn over police work to the Iraqis. This is taking longer than our leadership anticipated and longer apparently than Americans are willing to wait, but it is happening. Let's assume, however, that these bills become law and the president agrees to operate in accordance with their intent. Up until the surge, the United States maintained about 15 combat brigades (Marine and Army) plus support troops in Iraq; about 135,000 troops. How many troops will we need after Congress's withdrawal?

    To train Iraqi security forces the United States had been using 5,000 troops, but last fall everyone agreed more trainers are needed, and the number is projected to grow to between 15,000 and 20,000 trainers. Another way to think of the training mission is to imagine that the United States would embed one brigade into each of the 10 Iraqi divisions. Add to that a few US brigades to help fix the training of the equally large national police force, and you are up to between 10 and 15 brigades.

    To conduct operations specifically targeted against Al Qaeda or international terrorists in Iraq could take anything from the few Special Forces we have in Iraq to three to four conventional brigades.

    Finally, to protect US facilities, citizens, and our own forces would mean guarding at a minimum the Green Zone and the several bases from which US forces would operate, easily employing another two to three brigades. Altogether, the number of brigades we might need to perform the three missions allowed by Congress could reach between 12 and 20 brigades.

    How is it possible that after a "withdrawal" the United States might need as many troops in Iraq as it had there before? The reason is that we never had enough troops to begin with. Military experts would rightfully point out that the bills before Congress are more correctly understood as a re-missioning of our troops. Perhaps a good strategy -- but not a withdrawal.
    Last edited by Ray; 30 Mar 07, at 05:28.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

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    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesman View Post
    Again.
    Nahh. The Prez will veto it.

    -dale

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    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    "W" may not be the best person in the world. But hes one dam stingy president when it comes to having his power questioned by the Dems. Good for him.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalem View Post
    Nahh. The Prez will veto it.

    -dale
    I wish he would NOT veto it. I wish he'd IGNORE it.

    It's unconstitutional, and blatantly so. Congress has NO power to enact and enforce this 'law', and it has no legal basis. The President and ONLY the President is the Commander-in-Chief, and that's straight out of the Constitution's plainly-worded text.

    If Congress wants to change the policy in Iraq, they have that power: they can withold funds, and THAT is also in the Constitution. But they don't have the guts to cut off our troops. They want the President to either order them home, as he's been illegally ordered to do by Congress, OR they want him to veto it.

    Either way, it's the milepost of final defeat. We simply can't prevail now, no matter if we stay until Bush's final hour in office. It's over, and we just have one final unknown: how many more will die in Iraq. Not just our own troops, either, but how many Iraqis that we've abandoned.
    "The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
    - George Orwell

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    It's happening again. In the 'Seventies, people all around the world had a saying: 'It is dangerous to be America's enemy. It is fatal to be their friend.'

    Well, we're about to have a whole lot fewer friends after this wraps up in the bloody chaotic welter of confusion and evil that's going to follow it. And it's not like we didn't know what to expect, either - we've been here before, and for the exact same reasons.

    Nobody is ever going to trust the American government again. I certainly wouldn't bet MY family's life on our fidelity to our word. We are simply not trustworthy, as long as the Democratic party is as treasonous and anti-American as they are, and can get more than 35% of the collective national vote.

    When we try to rally the world behind something hard and dangerous but NECESSARY - like, oh, I don't know...IRAN? - we're not going to get many call-backs. That's not just bad for us, it's bad for the whole world.

    And notice how I'm not even mentioning how this is a HUGE defeat for us and a HUGE win for Terror and Islamic extremism? We'll pay the bill for that in the immediate future - not the by-and-by, but the here-and-now. Osama is right about us as a people. He had our number all along.

    Good goin', Democrats. Happy?
    "The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
    - George Orwell

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    Lord High Hullabalooster Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesman View Post
    I wish he would NOT veto it. I wish he'd IGNORE it.

    It's unconstitutional, and blatantly so. Congress has NO power to enact and enforce this 'law', and it has no legal basis. The President and ONLY the President is the Commander-in-Chief, and that's straight out of the Constitution's plainly-worded text.

    If Congress wants to change the policy in Iraq, they have that power: they can withold funds, and THAT is also in the Constitution. But they don't have the guts to cut off our troops. They want the President to either order them home, as he's been illegally ordered to do by Congress, OR they want him to veto it.

    Either way, it's the milepost of final defeat. We simply can't prevail now, no matter if we stay until Bush's final hour in office. It's over, and we just have one final unknown: how many more will die in Iraq. Not just our own troops, either, but how many Iraqis that we've abandoned.
    I agree that a Constitutional Showdown would be great, but I just don't see it happening. We'd need an administration that is more better good at communication than this one to really prevail anyway.

    -dale

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    Ray
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    Bush is in a bind!

    Democrats are laying a trap or so it seems.

    Or is it the other way around?


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

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    The veto will block the democrat's efforts. They won't be able to do much untill the next election season takes place and Democrats could have enough power to take action.
    Those who can't change become extinct.

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    Ray
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    Actually, if one reads the Brigadier's article, then one would realise there is hardly any withdrawal.

    Let us not be fooled by all this humbug about Freedom and Democracy. All that is for the gullible and those lazy to use their mind. If it were so, there were worse regimes which required a dose of Freedom and Democracy.

    The US attacked Iraq for its strategic goals. Pure and simple. It would break the OPEC cartel since Iraq has the second largest oil resources and that too sweet oil!

    Iraq was also the centre of Middle East and therefore an ideal launch pad in the ME and it was what was decided by the Defence Policy Guidelines of Cheney.

    Iraq secured the southern flank of the proposed CAR oil pipeline to the Turkish port.

    It also separated the Shias from the Sunnis and also the Hezbs from Iran.

    It also allowed use as the launch pad to secure the southern flank of the erstwhile USSR in conjunction with working on the CAR to wean them away from the Russian influence. And not to forget their OIL!

    And OIL is the most powerful strategic weapon! I don't think I have to explain the military (strategic) and economic superiority it bestows on the one controlling OIL.

    It is also gullible to feel that the Ukraine and Georgian or even the Lebanon 'revolutions' were spontaneous. If it were, then the current flaps there would not have taken place.

    Again oil! This time the pipelines to European allies without touching Russian soil!

    In this context, is also Afghanistan and Pakistan since the CAR oil is to be pumped through these countries into the Gwadar port to feed Asian market to the oil guzzlers and boost the US economy. Does this not put in place the pandering to Pakistan which is hellbent exporting the Taleban to kill the US soldiers and the NATO boys?

    Therefore, it is silly to feel that the democrats want withdrawal, lock, stock and barrel. Read between the lines. Read the Brigadier's article.

    So, all this moral stuff is for the birds. It is pure and simple a game to achieve total supremacy. Nothing wrong actually.

    It is rather juvenile to call any American or American party disloyal to the US or otherwise. They are all for US surpremacy over the world. The so called disconnect is merely cosmetic!

    Only a damned fool would barter the God given once in a lifetime supremacy that the US has achieved. And no American politician is a damned fool. They are wily and know their onions.
    Last edited by Ray; 31 Mar 07, at 22:07.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

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    Not a bad idea. However, I had figured that Dr. O'Hanlon would figure prominently in OSD in any future Democratic administration; after this piece, I am not so sure that he will be as welcome. Nonetheless, I find it refreshing to see that he continues to stick to his principles, which is why I like reading his analysis.

    Washington Times
    March 29, 2007
    Pg. 16

    Needed: Study Group II

    By Michael O'Hanlon

    Last fall, the Iraq Study Group produced a very good study with 79 recommendations, many quite useful. The group, led by former Secretary of State Jim Baker and former Indiana Rep. Lee Hamilton, and including such luminaries as former Defense Secretary Bill Perry, was remarkable for its expertise and sagacity. Among its proposals were expanded training of Iraqi security forces and greater attention to Iraqi jobs creation.

    We need another Iraq Study Group today. A new surge-based strategy is being undertaken in Iraq, involving more American forces and wholly different operational procedures in the field. It is a late hour to try such a strategy, and despite the excellent leadership of Gen. David Petraeus and great work by so many other soldiers and Marines, it will be very difficult to improve the security environment enough now to allow for new political compromise and economic recovery -- and hence real hope. But there is a chance of success. We need to watch what happens, evaluate progress, try to reach some level of national consensus about whether the surge is working and adjust accordingly (perhaps to a radically different strategy involving far fewer U.S. troops) if it does not.

    According to Miss Rice, Mr. Gates and Gen. Petraeus, it should be possible by summer to see if the strategy has a chance. But to reach objective determinations, we need a group seen as more independent than either officials in the Bush administration or critics on Capitol Hill. That is where an independent group of experts, issuing timely and prominent reports on trends in Iraq every two to three months, could be very useful.

    But such a study group requires different membership than the last one. This is hardly a critique of the previous members, who are as accomplished as anyone in the country. My hope and expectation is that they individually remain heavily involved in the Iraq debate. We need their advice, individually and collectively.

    However, for all of its virtues, the Iraq Study Group report had a feature that greatly limits its utility in the current context. It oversold the value of getting U.S. combat forces out of Iraq fast. Most important, it suggested doing so by early next year was a real option for the United States -- fully consistent with the hope of an Iraq that gradually stabilizes itself over the coming months and years.

    Indeed, the Baker-Hamilton commission suggested committing now to get almost all our combat troops out by next March would improve our prospects for success by forcing the Iraqis to bridge their differences or face likely disaster. Only such a use of American leverage, the Study Group argued, had a chance to force Shia, Sunni Arab, and Kurdish leaders to stop pursuing their sectarian advantages, comfortable in the expectation that the ongoing presence of American forces would prevent the situation from getting fully out of hand.

    The Study Group's argument has a kernel of truth. Most Iraqis do indeed continue to pursue sectarian interests above all else, and Americans do need to convey their waning patience with such a situation.

    But if Iraqis do listen to our threat to leave, and face the urgency of their situation, the Iraq Study Group would leave them in the lurch. Our economic and military aid might continue, but all our combat forces except those focusing on counterterrorism and protecting the Green Zone and our own troops would come home regardless. This approach does not make much sense.

    In other words, there would seem to be an internal contradiction in the Study Group's thinking: The very American leverage it recognizes as crucial to prodding the Iraqis to better governance of their country would be compromised because we would leave Iraq whether they did what we asked or not.

    This approach will almost surely not work. It will not work because, even if Iraqis complete their new bill on sharing oil revenue and make other political compromises on issues like amnesty and constitutional revision in the coming months, they will not have the governance capacity to run their country within a year.

    Among other problems, security forces will remain fairly weak technically, and extremely fragile politically. When extremely violent acts happen next year, as they surely will with American troops there or not, the Iraqi police and army units will not have the perceived impartiality to handle the situations effectively. They will not be able to gain enough skill in a year to display the necessary proficiency to do their jobs well. Even more to the point, they will not have established the credibility with Iraqis of other sectarian suasions to handle tough situations.

    Look at it another way. In the Balkans, we have needed a decade to begin calming things down, and in fact Kosovo is still on edge eight years after Slobodan Milosevic's war. These missions have lasted years after shots stopped being fired.

    In Iraq today, hostilities continue, and indeed by the definitions of most, the civil war is now moving into its second full year with no sign of abating. Even in successful peacekeeping missions that have been done "on the cheap" in countries like Cambodia and Mozambique in recent decades, a couple years' international presence were needed to help calm politics and establish confidence in governing authorities.

    The Iraq Study Group got this central issue wrong, in my judgment. As such, their recommendation that we can and indeed must leave Iraq by next year does not hold together well. I hope some individual Study Group members will rethink this point in the coming months. But as a group, they are committed to a certain position and would almost surely be unable to reverse it.

    As Congress and the president continue down their path toward an ugly confrontation, creation of this type of Iraq task force could be one of the few means of establishing a policy that we can agree on as a nation -- or at least, that we can all tolerate enough be able to pass a supplemental funding bill for our troops through September, something virtually all agree (explicitly or implicitly) is a priority.

    None of this will prevent a renewed and likely very contentious debate over funding in the late summer and fall. But if we can find a way to give the surge a chance, yet evaluate it according to demanding and realistic criteria after a few months, we will be doing better as a nation than now.

    Michael O'Hanlon is senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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