Thread: Why our enemies -- and friends -- hate us

[QUOTE=T_igger_cs_30;350617]

Originally Posted by ExNavyAmerican

I respect you are a staunch christian conservative, however this comment was a wind up right ........ in this day and age you cannot honestly belief that.

I believe that, but not in the way you think. A dark age this day in age would suit this day in age. High class industrial nations (all the way up to G-24) would fall into the class of 3rd world nations as a result of a huge economic crash, and that already poor nations would virtually cease to exist as a result of already we currency, and markets dropping to a negative value. I don't actually believe that we'll be using galleys, and trebuchets again, but I believe that there would be a dark age to suit our level of advancement and wealth.

Originally Posted by T_igger_cs_30

I love your posts Bluesman, for some reason I am always smiling at the end of them .......maybe we are alike in some ways ....anyway was in a discusion with a retired officer friend the other night, and basicly the subject of this thread came up, his opinion was that America is now being viewed as an empire in a lot of countries, and when a nation is viewed that way it creates a fear.........I do not agree with that view America as an empire but I thought he had a valid point........how do you feel about that?

Sorry, I have to earn some munny for my company in between wasting their time with the WAB.

I've heard the 'empire' meme before, and I always answer the same way: Dam' funny 'empire' we've built, what with not keeping the territories we take, what with not imposing our will whenever we wish, what with not being ruled by a dynastic succession, and what with the sheer benevolence practiced as a matter of policy.

The United states of America must be the least 'imperial' of any historical hegemon. We, right now, today, enjoy the greatest margin of superiority that any political entity has ever enjoyed, and it is SO vastly superior to any conceivable combination of opposition as to be virtually invulnerable. Now, that may scare some. But ANY rational judge of actual conduct - not merely the potential for domination - has GOT to agree that America, for all her faults, is the best thing that's ever happened to the world. We are the home of liberty, hope, and of the ways and means of doing Right in the world. During WWII, we were the Arsenal of Democracy, and the entire world should thank whatever god they bow down to that this was so. We have long been the supermarket to the world, and if any starve today, it is in direct contravention to American principles of charity and altruism. We are exactly what Abraham Lincoln saw so clearly, and why he fought so hard to save the United States: he knew we were the last best hope of earth. We ARE exceptional; we ARE a shining city upon a hill.

We make mistakes, and sometimes, in our eagerness to do Right, we stumble and I understand why there are others that don't see the Unites States of America like I do. But I ask you: who ELSE would those people rather have at the pinnacle of of economic, cultural, geopolitical and military power? Who ELSE would be a protector, and not a threat? Who ELSE out there among the nations of the world has earned through the sacrifice of blood and treasure, and through an imperfect but nevertheless noble example the leadership of a world that needs us now more than ever?

We're no 'empire'. We're no dictator; we're a LEADER.

Originally Posted by GAU-8

300 million people in the U.S. and not one of us can agree with another on anything. The U.S. is a grand but messy experiment. I've been to 27 countries and lived overseas three times. I still travel a bit outside the U.S. with my job. When I'm overseas/cross border, I'm treated with great kindness. (Especially in Canada--the most polite people I've ever met). I don't feel hate towards me as a person when I'm away. I do sense confusion towards the U.S. I feel people just don't get us. That is understandable since we don't fit an old world mold. We're a mixing pot that is set on a high heat. My favorite quote from the movie "Stripes" says it best:

"Our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country on this planet."

And from these forefathers, we stumble on.

When I lived overseas, people would ask me what America was like. It was a hard question to answer. The country--or better put, the experiment, is too diverse. As a joke, I'd tell people the best way to get a quick understanding of Americans would be to watch the old movie "Kelly's Heroes."

We're just a bunch of well-armed knuckle heads out to make a buck. And we don't really care much about being told what to do. (I think that's why we love the Aussies and the Irish so much).

And whatever it is that our government is saying these days, take it with a grain of salt. We change out our politicians in Washington regularly. Like dirty underwear.

For the folks out there that think that the U.S. is plotting to take over the world, you can relax and pour yourself a drink. You are giving us WAY too much credit. So let's just be friends or we'll bomb you back to the Stone Age. Just kidding------Not really though-----No, really, just kidding. That's not a WMD you've got there in your pocket is it? Ha. Just a little joke-----maybe.

Cheers

So true!

Americans would understand where the attitude of some people abroad comes from if they could see themselves from the 3rd point of view.

It amazing they don't see it .

Originally Posted by crooks

So true!

Americans would understand where the attitude of some people abroad comes from if they could see themselves from the 3rd point of view.

It amazing they don't see it .

The RotW would see America more clearly if they were honest with themselves about we've meant to them.

You want to know who the friendliest people were to the Americans while I was stationed in Bavaria? The OLD people, the ones that were alive during WWII and the Berlin Airlift, and who saw what America did to save them from the fate suffered by their cousins in the East.

Even though we bombed their cities flat and killed their fathers, they knew just how deep our pockets were, and how big our hearts were, and they never forgot, either. Their children, though reminded by Oma and Opa, never seemed to 'get' it.

Bluesman,

I sought to answer why many people, friends and enemies, hate America. Your posts only go to illustrate the reasons I proposed. Thanks for the charicature.

Personally I don't hate America and share most of its values, and I believe the same goes for the majority of my compatriots, despite the fact that the majority (including me) have hated its foreign policy over the last 5yrs. Many people, including me, believe in the role of America as a benign hegemon, but feel disillusioned by its recent action over Iraq, for which we did not feel the case was made or objective achievable, and would lead to the messes we are now in fact looking at. But it does not change my view of America as a whole. (Hell, I nearly took up a post in Savannah 20yrs ago, but then got an even better offer right here).

I even take our kids to MacDonalds. But it doesn't stop me knowing why others don't and won't.

Originally Posted by bandwagon

Bluesman,

I sought to answer why many people, friends and enemies, hate America. Your posts only go to illustrate the reasons I proposed. Thanks for the charicature.

Personally I don't hate America and share most of its values, and I believe the same goes for the majority of my compatriots, despite the fact that the majority (including me) have hated its foreign policy over the last 5yrs. Many people, including me, believe in the role of America as a benign hegemon, but feel disillusioned by its recent action over Iraq, for which we did not feel the case was made or objective achievable, and would lead to the messes we are now in fact looking at. But it does not change my view of America as a whole. (Hell, I nearly took up a post in Savannah 20yrs ago, but then got an even better offer right here).

I even take our kids to MacDonalds. But it doesn't stop me knowing why others don't and won't.

Oh, I get that, too. As for caricatures, well, I have one of most Europeans as mewling, weak, vacillating, ungrateful adult-children that never learned how to be responsible for themselves or to take on the roles demanded of decent citizenship, and prefer statism to freedom. I acknowledge it's not universal, but far, far too prevalent for a free-born and reasonably-butch man (in the full sense) to respect very much.

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Sorry, I have to earn some munny for my company in between wasting their time with the WAB.

I've heard the 'empire' meme before, and I always answer the same way: Dam' funny 'empire' we've built, what with not keeping the territories we take, what with not imposing our will whenever we wish, what with not being ruled by a dynastic succession, and what with the sheer benevolence practiced as a matter of policy.

The United states of America must be the least 'imperial' of any historical hegemon. We, right now, today, enjoy the greatest margin of superiority that any political entity has ever enjoyed, and it is SO vastly superior to any conceivable combination of opposition as to be virtually invulnerable. Now, that may scare some. But ANY rational judge of actual conduct - not merely the potential for domination - has GOT to agree that America, for all her faults, is the best thing that's ever happened to the world. We are the home of liberty, hope, and of the ways and means of doing Right in the world. During WWII, we were the Arsenal of Democracy, and the entire world should thank whatever god they bow down to that this was so. We have long been the supermarket to the world, and if any starve today, it is in direct contravention to American principles of charity and altruism. We are exactly what Abraham Lincoln saw so clearly, and why he fought so hard to save the United States: he knew we were the last best hope of earth. We ARE exceptional; we ARE a shining city upon a hill.

We make mistakes, and sometimes, in our eagerness to do Right, we stumble and I understand why there are others that don't see the Unites States of America like I do. But I ask you: who ELSE would those people rather have at the pinnacle of of economic, cultural, geopolitical and military power? Who ELSE would be a protector, and not a threat? Who ELSE out there among the nations of the world has earned through the sacrifice of blood and treasure, and through an imperfect but nevertheless noble example the leadership of a world that needs us now more than ever?

We're no 'empire'. We're no dictator; we're a LEADER.

No doubting your patriotism Bluesman......I like that never fault a man for that

Originally Posted by Bluesman

You want to know who the friendliest people were to the Americans while I was stationed in Bavaria? The OLD people, the ones that were alive during WWII and the Berlin Airlift, and who saw what America did to save them from the fate suffered by their cousins in the East.

Even though we bombed their cities flat and killed their fathers, they knew just how deep our pockets were, and how big our hearts were, and they never forgot, either. Their children, though reminded by Oma and Opa, never seemed to 'get' it.

That's the "what have you done for me lately?" syndrome.

We bombed the snot out of the Serbs to help out the muslims. What do we get? America is the devil. America hates muslims. America the crusader...

Originally Posted by gunnut

That's the "what have you done for me lately?" syndrome.

We bombed the snot out of the Serbs to help out the muslims. What do we get? America is the devil. America hates muslims. America the crusader...

'Do somebody a favor, and they'll never forgive you.'

Originally Posted by Bluesman

The RotW would see America more clearly if they were honest with themselves about we've meant to them.

I see America clearly and like your people (very courtious) and culture .

HOWEVER.

Americans are always so eager to bring up past conflicts (not you, I'm just saying as a whole) and claim that without them, we'd all be speaking German.
You have an occasional arrogant streak that no one else in the world has.

God does not "Bless America" over anyone else, and nor should you (again, not personal, but as a people) expect him to .

I neither hate nor love America, and wouldn't choose to live there willingly, but that's a cultural difference I suppose.

So what do you mean to me?

Nothing more than anyone else, and I am being honest, for the record .

Originally Posted by bandwagon

The fact that you do not understand why McDonalds is resented by many people is symptomatic of that.

The point is we DO understand why you resent McDonalds: You resent it BECAUSE it's American

Originally Posted by bandwagon

I know for a fact that many Americans do understand that and do have insight into why American culture and power is resented. They tend to occupy another part of the political spectrum to you. blah blah blah

blah blah arrogance.

Those Americans would be those who apologize to you for being American, right?
For what America does, and for electing Bush, right?
And as long as they apologize to you, you'll like them, right?


And you call the people here arrogant

Originally Posted by T_igger_cs_30

No doubting your patriotism Bluesman......I like that never fault a man for that

Well, I think it's MORE than that. Obviously, we all love our homes. And we all have a loyalty to the place and people that have corporately provided us safety and opportunity as we lived our lives among them.

But America is quite simply DIFFERENT. Our founding idea is an expression of a high motive, and I think a lot of the world simply does not know what I mean. In America, we took the Western tradition farther than it had ever gone before. The INDIVIDUAL was prime, NOT the whole body, and, perversely, THAT is what makes the body as a whole stronger than any tendency or proclivity to exalt the group. Rights belong to individuals, and we're all equal before the law. Property rights, due process, and maximum personal liberty were fanatically soughtand pursued, and in those times when that pursuit failed, we attempted correction and pressed on.

In doing so, we have created an engine for producing the best opportunity for the best life for the maximum number of people - not just Americans, either - that any country can claim. THIS is what made us great, and not the other way around. We are prosperous because of our basis, our foundation. We are strong for the same reason. We are creative and reasonable and generous because of the IDEA that we're based on.

We're not just another of the world's great nations that happened to get lucky enough to be a happy accident of history. The United States of America is BETTER, not because our people are better - they're not, in any inherent sense, and to believe otherwise is perverse, because an American can be from ANYwhere, as long as they believe in American values. We're better because of the principles that we corporately believe in and promote, and while those things cannot be transplanted onto every different culture wholesale, I submit that what's wrong with the world is not that there's too much of America, but that there's not nearly enough.