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Thread: Kerry calls on Bush to denounce attack ads

  1. #31
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    War Crimes

    I do not see what is your point. Kerry pointed on war crimes in Vietnam. What is problem than??? All the world know that some parts of U.S army commited war crimes in Vietnam.

    From 1969-1973 almost 10 000 civilians were executed.

    I think that people who attack Kerry because his speach related to war crimes actually suport war crimes in Vietnam and think that those rapes and crimes were good.

    And tell yu somethink U.S army is War CRIMINAL ARMY, that protect war criminals.

    For 10 000 executed civilians no one have never been even prosecuted.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex82
    I do not see what is your point. Kerry pointed on war crimes in Vietnam. What is problem than??? All the world know that some parts of U.S army commited war crimes in Vietnam.



    I think that people who attack Kerry because his speach related to war crimes actually suport war crimes in Vietnam and think that those rapes and crimes were good..
    Kerry never saw a single war crime he has admitted that all he knew were second and third hand tales relayed by people he cant or won't identify.

    There were war crimes trials and convictions on several occasions. and people were punished. Dont call The US Army criminal Unless You plan on calling the Vietnamese to account for their crimes


    Millions of people were MURDERED by North Viet Nam after the US left but no one cries nearly as loud for them as they do for the people the US supposedly killed. Anyone who wants to treat The Viet nam Government is innocent or even deserves not to be rounded up and shot is ignoring several very large holes in history...., most of them filled with dead bodies shot in the back because they weren't "good communists"needs to talk to the people who have risked death and worse to get out of that country. There are enough Mong tribesman who might be willing to correct your view of history. we have a few thousand of them in North Carolina. all have had family butchered by the Vietnamese. and not one whimper comes out of the people who scream that The US are the criminals. Bad soldiers and few evile men are the extreme exception in the US military. rape murder and torture are not part of Standard procedure can the Couragous NVA say the same.

    Dragoon
    Last edited by Dragoon; 25 Aug 04, at 04:20.
    Yes..,You have the right To Speak, however I have the right not to listen

  3. #33
    Staff Emeritus Confed999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex82
    I do not see what is your point. Kerry pointed on war crimes in Vietnam. What is problem than???
    He admited to war crimes, and he should have known better. He wasn't a High School drop out easily led, he was the leader.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex82
    All the world know that some parts of U.S army commited war crimes in Vietnam.
    Something like 2.5 million Americans served in Vietnam, sure there were bad people in there, but the acts of the Americans can't match the acts of the Vietnamese against the Vietnamese.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex82
    I think that people who attack Kerry because his speach related to war crimes actually suport war crimes in Vietnam and think that those rapes and crimes were good.
    I want all war criminals punished, and if Kerry was one, then him too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex82
    no one have never been even prosecuted.
    That's puckey, Lt. William L. Calley was convicted of war crimes for ordering the 1968 My Lai massacre of unarmed civilians during the Vietnam War.
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
    I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex82
    From 1969-1973 almost 10 000 civilians were executed.
    I like to see some proof of that or did you just pull that out of thin air?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex82
    I think that people who attack Kerry because his speach related to war crimes actually suport war crimes in Vietnam and think that those rapes and crimes were good.
    The JAG records are quite clear in that regard. Those who were accused of rape and other crimes were investigaged and if deemed necessary, prosecuted. Rapes, however, is a police/criminal matter, and not a war crime matter. There were plenty of convictions of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex82
    For 10 000 executed civilians no one have never been even prosecuted.
    Prove that 10,0000 civilians were executed and I mean executed - line up against the wall and shot, drowned, hanged. I mean deliberate murder and not collateral damage.
    Chimo

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confed999
    Hey, I said I like that site, I really do. My point was, without anything else concrete I don't have a question about Kerry's service. Burden of proof is on the accuser, but if the journal entry above is authentic, I have no idea if it was, there should be hell to pay. If it turns out it was a malicious attack instead, same with any of the Swift Boat stuff and MoveOn stuff, then the attackers should be punished. All I want is the truth, and since the only things I know about Kerry for sure are: he was in Vietnam, not Cambodia though, for 4 months, afterwards he admited to war crimes and accused others of the same, not only to Congress, but to the North Vietnamese as well. He spent decades in the Senate voting to raise taxes, slash intelligence spending, stop most of the weapons in use today, take away my personal liberties, etc., etc.. Finally, I know that the only thing I have to go by, with Kerry, is his past, because his story for the future changes far to often for me to keep up with. Since I've seen all of that on video, in pictures, and on his voting record, I'm not so likely to trust anything he, or even his party, says. Trust me Trooth, I judge Kerry on Kerry, nobody else, and I can write something, like the above, for many Republicans as well.
    Confed as always, I agree with your points

    Some more questions:

    1) What ever became of Lt. Calley? Was he executed like the Australian guys in the Boer War?

    2) Should John Kerry not be put on trial for his crimes? The liberals whine about Bush being a criminal by invading Iraq and not going after Bin Laden, yet at the same time their presidential contender is a self admitted war criminal and they dont say a word . Those people sicken me, god help us if John Kerry wins because if your a Republican and accused of a crime you must be guilty, and if you a Demoncrat and accused of a crime you must be innocent according to the logic they used with Bush and Iraq.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisF202
    2) Should John Kerry not be put on trial for his crimes? The liberals whine about Bush being a criminal by invading Iraq and not going after Bin Laden, yet at the same time their presidential contender is a self admitted war criminal and they dont say a word . Those people sicken me, god help us if John Kerry wins because if your a Republican and accused of a crime you must be guilty, and if you a Demoncrat and accused of a crime you must be innocent according to the logic they used with Bush and Iraq.
    Personally i think he should be. At the very least his allegatons should have been investigated and he and those officers and servicemen below and above should be indicted as appropriate. However, the problem here is similar to arguements about awards and citations. It is the collateral damage of "the system".

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisF202
    Should John Kerry not be put on trial for his crimes?
    I think anyone willing to admit to commiting atrocities, especially if it's while giving aid and comfort to the enemy, should be, at the least, investigated.
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
    I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confed999
    I think anyone willing to admit to commiting atrocities, especially if it's while giving aid and comfort to the enemy, should be, at the least, investigated.

    As much as Kerry haters want to rip him apart for everything he has said in his life, you can look at the real quote below and judge for yourself. You can agree or disagree with his view but it is quite clear that he is talking about regretting some of the things that he and "thousands of other soldiers" did.


    QUESTION (4/18/71): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

    KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 caliber machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjacobs43
    yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities
    What part of that statement don't you understand? Let me "streamline" it for you, "I commited... atrocities". I am not picking on Kerry here, I want all war criminals investigated and, if enough evidence is presented, convicted.
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
    I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confed999
    What part of that statement don't you understand? Let me "streamline" it for you, "I commited... atrocities". I am not picking on Kerry here, I want all war criminals investigated and, if enough evidence is presented, convicted.
    I guess it started in '71 and continues to this day where Kerry gets himself in trouble to using phrases to clarify statements like "In that" or "In the sense that". I'm asking you not to "streamline" and to decypher to meaning of what he is talking about. He was protesting the war. After he got out of the war, he came to the conclusion that the orders he followed were not following the Geneva convention.

    People like Sean Hannity and such are acting childish in how they are pounding him for this. He badgers the guests to admit that Kerry is a war criminal because he admits to committing atrocities. He knows what Kerry meant, it's just not as convenient for him to win his little arguments and look big on tv.

    Kerry was outspoken against the war. If people are upset with that then fine. But let's not act like he went and killed innocent children and raped women over there. He was following orders (at least by his quotes).

  11. #41
    Staff Emeritus Confed999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjacobs43
    he came to the conclusion that the orders he followed were not following the Geneva convention.
    So you're saying that as an officer in charge of his own boat he didn't understand the GC until after he came back? Sorry, he said "I commited... atrocities" under oath before congress.
    Quote Originally Posted by jjacobs43
    decypher to meaning of what he is talking about.
    I'm taking what he said, you're doing the decyphering.
    Quote Originally Posted by jjacobs43
    People like Sean Hannity
    Don't know anything about him, except he has shows, books, and is a Republican.
    Quote Originally Posted by jjacobs43
    what Kerry meant
    So you're saying, Kerry doesn't say what he means?
    Quote Originally Posted by jjacobs43
    But let's not act like he went and killed innocent children and raped women over there.
    How do you know? BTW, rape would be a regular criminal case, not a war crime, unless he ordered someone to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by jjacobs43
    He was following orders (at least by his quotes).
    He's an educated man, and that's no excuse.
    Last edited by Confed999; 28 Aug 04, at 01:18.
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
    I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confed999
    So you're saying that as an officer in charge of his own boat he didn't understand the GC until after he came back? Sorry, he said "I commited... atrocities" under oath before congress.

    I'm taking what he said, you're doing the decyphering.

    Don't know anything about him, except he has shows, books, and is a Republican.

    So you're saying, Kerry doesn't say what he means?

    How do you know? BTW, rape would be a regular criminal case, not a war crime, unless he ordered someone to do it.

    He's an educated man, and that's no excuse.
    Wow, there's just no changing your mind on this is there? I find it hard to believe that anybody can take his quote to mean anything other than a protest to the war but, whatever. You obviously look at the words through different eyes than I do being that you seem to have such a hatred of the guy. I personally think that it's all being way overblown but, I guess that politics in the 21st century.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjacobs43
    Wow, there's just no changing your mind on this is there? I find it hard to believe that anybody can take his quote to mean anything other than a protest to the war but, whatever. You obviously look at the words through different eyes than I do being that you seem to have such a hatred of the guy. I personally think that it's all being way overblown but, I guess that politics in the 21st century.
    LOL! Maybe your love for him is clouding your vision. And this isn't politics, it's a person, doesn't matter who it is either, saying "I commited... atrocities". Just like it doesn't matter how many people have commited murder before, or who told them to do it, if they go into court and swear they did it under oath, they should be investigated. I feel no differently about war crimes, or any other crime for that matter. I don't see why this is a difficult concept.
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
    I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

  14. #44
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    I agree with Confed that "following orders" is no excuse. Especially for an officer with a command.

    However, i would say that my interpretation is that Kerry is explaining his role as a serviceman carrying out his orders using the tools available. My interpretation is that he is saying something like "now that i am away from the war and can see a bigger picture i can see that my role in this made me party to what i believe are war crimes".

    So, yes he is saying he committed them, but unknowingly.

    Not dissimilar to statements made by legal teams in Nuremburg, i grant you.

  15. #45
    Staff Emeritus Confed999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooth
    I agree with Confed that "following orders" is no excuse
    Is that 5 or 6 agreements so far?
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
    I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

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