Mexico: Plan for border fence 'deplorable'

**Goatboy** · 15 Oct 06,, 03:55

Originally Posted by YellowFever

Are you saying that the Mexicans that can not receive worker/registration cards will simply give up and stay in Mexico? Or are you advocating that everyone that wants such a card be granted one?
If these people are willing to risk death walking through one of the hottest places in America to make a few bucks, do you honestly think not getting such a card will stop them from doing so?

Oh, I think supply and demand might work the problem out for itself. A massive glut of lettuce pickers, textile factory workers, gardeners, etc won't be that encouraging to eager workers back home. Anyway, if they can't get a job (of course many will have a job lined up before they leave for the US in fact) then they can go back home.

Ok look. Here's my motivation. I want to stop illegal immigration, and to do that I want to greatly increase the "guest worker program" -- including all of my stipulations included in my previous postings (subsidies, thorough documentation procedures etc). I also want the American economy to remain strong and competitive, and cheap labor is a massive boon to that goal. I don't have any problem with temporary DOCUMENTED workers, I don't care if there's 500,000 or 3 million in California. But, in no way shape or form, would I allow permanent "asylum", for such workers, and as I explain below, documented workers are far far less anonymous than illegals.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

Your solution sounds pretty good on paper but try to implement it and see what kind of sh*t will hit the fan.

My plan isn't full proof. I never claimed it was and I constantly remind myself of that. I don't think it's perfect, but do you think "the sh*t isn't hitting the fan" now anyways? I think it is.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

It's akin to communism. On paper it sounds hunky dory and sounds like a regular worker's paradise but it never works in real life.

how on earth is this akin to communism? It's free market ALL the way. As far as the "workers paradise" analogy you made to my hypothetical scenario, did you read my previous posts about "ending housing subsidies, food stamps, and free education" for the migrant worker? AND any illegal aliens?

Originally Posted by YellowFever

No, I do not want border patrol agents to shoot Mexicans crossing the border illegally but I also don't want the leftys to protest when we do catch them and lock them up to process their immediate deportation. Nor do I want maps and bottled water every few miles across the Arizona desert to show them the way, therefore encouraging them further.

Plenty of posts on here essentially recommended that "live fire exercises" (i.e. Turkey shoot) be established along the border. I think my disgust on this issue is well warranted. I'll defend to the hilt, and condemn anyone who thinks otherwise -- and such disgust is necessitated, to anyone who takes the least bit interest in "what America stands for, now and historically". The specific post you responded to, was in response to those postings. I'm not a "lefty" nor a "righty" for that matter, but I have no problem catching illegals and deporting them, and blacklisting them for a certain time from working in the US, what time that is I cannot say.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

And I'd gladly pay 2 bucks for a head of lettuce rather than paying 75 cents and then having my hard earned money flushed down the toilet trying to put these people's kid through school and paying for their medical care.
In short. I'd love to pay americans 15 bucks and hour to pick lettuce rather than hiring Mexicans that'll pick them for 8 bucks and then paying for their kids education.

The migrant workers kids stay home as far as I'm concerned, I see no reason why allowing a migrant worker to work in the US for ... 2 years? 1 year? gives him the right to bring his children to be educated in America for the duration of daddy's work visa. Kids stay at home.

Now if the migrant worker get's pregnant and has a kid while in the US on a work visa, like I said, the kid goes back home with the parent when the visa expires. The kid is a US citizen, but that doesn't give the kid the right to travel alone to the US to be schooled, nor does it give the parent more leverage to extend their visa. Anyway, all work visas expire faster before a new baby becomes old enough to go to school.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

You come up with a fair workers/registration program which will guarantee that they and their family leave after it expires and than we'll talk about implementing it.

Documented workers are MUCH easier to locate. Someone overstays their visa and authorities can investigate. They have picture ID of the individual, living address, job location etc etc. It's all on file. Illegal border crossers on the other hand are anonymous by definition. We don't know what they look like, how old they are, what their name is, no fingerprint (another requirement which is essential for documentation of workers).

Polish guest workers in UK have, according to plenty of experts, been a boon England's economy. The English economy has done considerably better than its continental peers over the last several years.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

Yor solution sounds like these gun control pukes:
We got too many guns right now.
Wait!
Let's create one or two more gun control laws to agument the 20,000 or so already on the books.
That'll solve the problem for sure!

I'm not in favor of gun control, might not be the best example here.

**YellowFever** · 15 Oct 06,, 06:14

Originally Posted by Goatboy

Oh, I think supply and demand might work the problem out for itself. A massive glut of lettuce pickers, textile factory workers, gardeners, etc won't be that encouraging to eager workers back home. Anyway, if they can't get a job (of course many will have a job lined up before they leave for the US in fact) then they can go back home.

And you truly believe those likely to cross the border illegally will understand, much less worry about supply and demand? My point still stands. If Uncle Sam says, "Sorry folks, we have enough workers in this country. You will not be issued worker permits." That will keep the illegals from crossing into our borders?

Originally Posted by Goatboy

Ok look. Here's my motivation. I want to stop illegal immigration, and to do that I want to greatly increase the "guest worker program" -- including all of my stipulations included in my previous postings (subsidies, thorough documentation procedures etc). I also want the American economy to remain strong and competitive, and cheap labor is a massive boon to that goal. I don't have any problem with temporary DOCUMENTED workers, I don't care if there's 500,000 or 3 million in California. But, in no way shape or form, would I allow permanent "asylum", for such workers, and as I explain below, documented workers are far far less anonymous than illegals.

I, too, do not have any problems with DOCUMENTED workers. Only problem is what happens when their documentation expires? Will they all want to leave? Do you really think we will be able to kick out those willing to stay beyond their expiration date? We can't even kick out the illegals here right now as it is.

Originally Posted by Goatboy

My plan isn't full proof. I never claimed it was and I constantly remind myself of that. I don't think it's perfect, but do you think "the sh*t isn't hitting the fan" now anyways? I think it is.

Yes, the crap is hitting the fan now as it is. Your "solution" in my humble opinion, will just create more crap to be hit by the fan.

Originally Posted by Goatboy

how on earth is this akin to communism? It's free market ALL the way. As far as the "workers paradise" analogy you made to my hypothetical scenario, did you read my previous posts about "ending housing subsidies, food stamps, and free education" for the migrant worker? AND any illegal aliens?

You missed my point. It's akin to communism as they both sound good only on paper. And how long do you think it'll take before "documented" workers form some sort of union and organize protests and whine on TV about the "inhumane" treatement they are receiving. How they are doing the "dirty" work without reaping the benefits..etc..etc.
Do you really think we won't offer them the subsidies, food stamps and free education when we can't even deny those to ILLEGAL immigrants in this country?

Originally Posted by Goatboy

Plenty of posts on here essentially recommended that "live fire exercises" (i.e. Turkey shoot) be established along the border. I think my disgust on this issue is well warranted. I'll defend to the hilt, and condemn anyone who thinks otherwise -- and such disgust is necessitated, to anyone who takes the least bit interest in "what America stands for, now and historically". The specific post you responded to, was in response to those postings. I'm not a "lefty" nor a "righty" for that matter, but I have no problem catching illegals and deporting them, and blacklisting them for a certain time from working in the US, what time that is I cannot say.

Take it with a grain of salt.
I'm sure no one on this board is advocating our right shooting of illegals but it does demonstrate their frustration with the subject. I'm willing to bet that all they (the people who posted about the "Turkey Shoot") really want is some reasonable measure to try to stop the flow of illlegals entering the country.
As it stands now, the illegal Mexicans that put their feet into US soil has almost as much right as citizens. In some cases, they have MORE rights. I don't see where citizens get breaks on college tuitions. That just ain't right, ya know..!

Originally Posted by Goatboy

The migrant workers kids stay home as far as I'm concerned, I see no reason why allowing a migrant worker to work in the US for ... 2 years? 1 year? gives him the right to bring his children to be educated in America for the duration of daddy's work visa. Kids stay at home.

Now if the migrant worker get's pregnant and has a kid while in the US on a work visa, like I said, the kid goes back home with the parent when the visa expires. The kid is a US citizen, but that doesn't give the kid the right to travel alone to the US to be schooled, nor does it give the parent more leverage to extend their visa. Anyway, all work visas expire faster before a new baby becomes old enough to go to school.

And how long will it take before we see faces of these little kids plastered all over the TV screen crying their eyes out about being separated from their mommies and daddies?
Under our laws, the kid IS a US citizen, with inalienable civil rights. How long do you think it'll take before some lilly livered do gooder from the ACLU takes this to the courts? And how long do you think it'll take before some liberal judge basically over-turns the "you gotta get out of the country before your kid hits the school ages".

Originally Posted by Goatboy

Documented workers are MUCH easier to locate. Someone overstays their visa and authorities can investigate. They have picture ID of the individual, living address, job location etc etc. It's all on file. Illegal border crossers on the other hand are anonymous by definition. We don't know what they look like, how old they are, what their name is, no fingerprint (another requirement which is essential for documentation of workers).

Like I said before, what if they do not leave after their documents expire?
Do you think the FBI (or whoever) will drag them to the nearest airport and put them on the plane?
We literally have millions of illegals in this country that ARE finger printed, documented, picture ID'd and they're still here.
Do you honestly think they really are going to work so hard for the documents and the leave when told to do so? More likely that they will report to whatever agency is set up until the date their documents expires and after that, we'll probably never hear from them again.

Originally Posted by Goatboy

Polish guest workers in UK have, according to plenty of experts, been a boon England's economy. The English economy has done considerably better than its continental peers over the last several years.

And our economy has done better than any EU countries INCLUDING the UK without a guest workers program over the years.
Listen, I understand your argument.
I heard it time and time again from Dubya but he, like you, have not given me one iota if proof that a guest worker's program will stem the tide of illegals entering this country by the millions.
I think a guest worker's program will probably (I'm not so sure) be good for the country but that has nothing to do with the millions of illegals here or will soon be here.

Originally Posted by Goatboy

I'm not in favor of gun control, might not be the best example here.

I think it's a great example but you just don't see it. What you're suggesting IS akin to just one more gun control law.
How will your program help the illegal problem when we already have all this laws prohibiting illegals but are NOT being implemented???

Are you going to start bringing in new guest workers or will the illegals here be converted to "guest" workers? If the latter, will they just be told to pay a fine of a few thousand dollars and, "OK you're guest workers now" ?
Hardly likely since they stand around all day around Home Depot for obscene wages that'll barely pay for their meals, nevermind the fines.

Bottom line is that the Guest Worker Program might be useful to this country.
But to think it'll have any sort of impact whatsoever on the illegal immigration problem we are facing is, I think, wishful thinking.

**Goatboy** · 15 Oct 06,, 07:02

Originally Posted by YellowFever

And you truly believe those likely to cross the border illegally will understand, much less worry about supply and demand? My point still stands. If Uncle Sam says, "Sorry folks, we have enough workers in this country. You will not be issued worker permits." That will keep the illegals from crossing into our borders?

Migrant workers migrate to where there are jobs ... period. When there aren't enough menial jobs to go around, then word will get back home VERY quickly that job security isn't a definitive. These are fundamental economic principles/tendencies they aren't my "fly by night" analysis. Make no mistake, migrant workers in America work. I know, I've met many of them. Do you really think a glut of farm workers, textile workers, won't impact the migration of workers from one country to another? It has historically.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

I, too, do not have any problems with DOCUMENTED workers. Only problem is what happens when their documentation expires? Will they all want to leave? Do you really think we will be able to kick out those willing to stay beyond their expiration date? We can't even kick out the illegals here right now as it is.

Are documented workers here the issue? What fraction of registered migrant workers would REFUSE to leave, given my stipulations, or for that matter historically -- i.e. now? And of the small fraction of those that don't, we must consider the impetus for their decision, namely "what's the advantage for flaunting US law and staying (even though their identity is well known -- as I described in previous posts)" -- well there's not much benefit to staying, when going back home and reapplying for another work tour (you must leave the country to apply for a visa -- that largely applies across the globe) is by FAR the best way. I'm trying my best to highlight the massive difference between documented individuals, and anonymous illegals.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

Yes, the crap is hitting the fan now as it is. Your "solution" in my humble opinion, will just create more crap to be hit by the fan.

And what's your solution? I've heard criticism, but what exactly are you proposing? Just curious

Originally Posted by YellowFever

You missed my point. It's akin to communism as they both sound good only on paper. And how long do you think it'll take before "documented" workers form some sort of union and organize protests and whine on TV about the "inhumane" treatement they are receiving. How they are doing the "dirty" work without reaping the benefits..etc..etc.
Do you really think we won't offer them the subsidies, food stamps and free education when we can't even deny those to ILLEGAL immigrants in this country?

Looking good on paper is the first step to implementation of the idea. I don't profess to have intimate knowledge of the issue, and I'll assume anyone else doesn't on WAB either (or if they think their position is irrefutable, then they're closed off to new ideas). I don't give a hoot about "what people might offer" subsidies, food stamps etc, I'm talking about my proposition. I don't think we should give the owner of a 1968 Camaro souped up roadster a ticket when he's pulling out of the driveway on the off chance he "might" speed.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

Take it with a grain of salt.
I'm sure no one on this board is advocating our right shooting of illegals but it does demonstrate their frustration with the subject. I'm willing to bet that all they (the people who posted about the "Turkey Shoot") really want is some reasonable measure to try to stop the flow of illlegals entering the country.
As it stands now, the illegal Mexicans that put their feet into US soil has almost as much right as citizens. In some cases, they have MORE rights. I don't see where citizens get breaks on college tuitions. That just ain't right, ya know..!

I do take it with a grain of salt, otherwise I'd slander to the extreme anyone who actually advocates such a bloodthirsty policy. I might be apt (or at least I try to convince myself) that posts that say "kill the Mexican" is simply an emotional reaction. Maybe you're an expert in reading between the lines/posts but I think words do speak loudly. In any case, to say such things as that and not mean it is a lazy form of debate -- and any politician, no matter how insignificant, would be crucified in the media with such statements -- similar to saying that one approves of the burning of crosses in front of black churches.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

And how long will it take before we see faces of these little kids plastered all over the TV screen crying their eyes out about being separated from their mommies and daddies?
Under our laws, the kid IS a US citizen, with inalienable civil rights. How long do you think it'll take before some lilly livered do gooder from the ACLU takes this to the courts? And how long do you think it'll take before some liberal judge basically over-turns the "you gotta get out of the country before your kid hits the school ages".

Separated from their mommies and daddies? I don't care what the sob story is, the migrant worker can go home anytime to be with his kids. As for your comment on the "livered do gooders" I don't care what they say either, and why should I? I'm talking about a guest worker program policy. The ACLU can bring up whatever it wants, but permanent asylum isn't in the cards in my opinion. Anyway, what would the ACLU complain of? The family in Mexico that can't see daddy cuz he's in America picking lettuce? No problem, he goes back to Mexico. SIMPLE. Once again, I don't care about some hypothetical "whining" from the court system. I'm assuming this worker plan I've highlighted is policy. It's very precise, and concise as well.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

And our economy has done better than any EU countries INCLUDING the UK without a guest workers program over the years.

Hmm, I've worked with a number of Mexicans in the US, I see plenty of Mexican nationals working in the US, and I see plenty of undocumented workers from Mexico as well. I live in Los Angeles, so I know something about this issue. What do you mean that the US doesn't have a guest worker program? The US has a huge guest worker program. Are you serious? Or are you referring to something more specific? And the American economy's performance is based on much more than "guest workers", it has something to do with laissez faire economics, population growth, more limited government restriction of private industry, or even simply cyclical trends.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

Listen, I understand your argument.
I heard it time and time again from Dubya but he, like you, have not given me one iota if proof that a guest worker's program will stem the tide of illegals entering this country by the millions.
I think a guest worker's program will probably (I'm not so sure) be good for the country but that has nothing to do with the millions of illegals here or will soon be here.

Originally Posted by YellowFever

Bottom line is that the Guest Worker Program might be useful to this country.
But to think it'll have any sort of impact whatsoever on the illegal immigration problem we are facing is, I think, wishful thinking.

I think NAFTA, and the free market, including the free movement of labor across borders is a gigantic boon. I don't want to debate on whether the US economy is more efficient with say: tariffs, import duties, subsidy, etc etc, because then the debate degenerates into a different field of study -- namely economics, ... well and other stuff too i guess.

**YellowFever** · 15 Oct 06,, 08:11

Originally Posted by Goatboy

Migrant workers migrate to where there are jobs ... period. When there aren't enough menial jobs to go around, then word will get back home VERY quickly that job security isn't a definitive. These are fundamental economic principles/tendencies they aren't my "fly by night" analysis. Make no mistake, migrant workers in America work. I know, I've met many of them. Do you really think a glut of farm workers, textile workers, won't impact the migration of workers from one country to another? It has historically.

And that's the reason so many of them are standing in the parking lots of Home Depot and Lowe's, right? Migrant workers would migrate to where there are jobs if all the government programs/subsidies were to stop but that ain't gonna happen is it? Just because you or I want these subsidies to stop doesn't make it so. And when you hire one of these illegals to paint your house or do some lifting work, do you compensate them with the taxes withheld? How is hiring illegals where you basically pay them cash going to help out the economy, especially since they send the bulk of this home to Mexico?

Originally Posted by Goatboy

Are documented workers here the issue? What fraction of registered migrant workers would REFUSE to leave, given my stipulations, or for that matter historically -- i.e. now? And of the small fraction of those that don't, we must consider the impetus for their decision, namely "what's the advantage for flaunting US law and staying (even though their identity is well known -- as I described in previous posts)" -- well there's not much benefit to staying, when going back home and reapplying for another work tour (you must leave the country to apply for a visa -- that largely applies across the globe) is by FAR the best way. I'm trying my best to highlight the massive difference between documented individuals, and anonymous illegals.

And who said the number of people that will refuse to leave will be a small fraction?
And I don't know the advantage of them staying here. You'll have to ask the close to 20 million illegals that flaunt it everyday by staying here. And the current subsidies and programs are more than enough benefits to stay.
IF (and this is not likely to happen) we get rid of ALL the subsidies and programs that make it easy for illegals to stay with minimum amount of hardship, then your program makes sense, but that ain't gonna happen is it?

Originally Posted by Goatboy

And what's your solution? I've heard criticism, but what exactly are you proposing? Just curious

Ummm....we could implement the building of the wall as stated in the thread topic. I don't know if it's a long term solution but we gotta stop the bleeding before we can even begin to search for a cure.

Originally Posted by Goatboy

Looking good on paper is the first step to implementation of the idea. I don't profess to have intimate knowledge of the issue, and I'll assume anyone else doesn't on WAB either (or if they think their position is irrefutable, then they're closed off to new ideas). I don't give a hoot about "what people might offer" subsidies, food stamps etc, I'm talking about my proposition. I don't think we should give the owner of a 1968 Camaro souped up roadster a ticket when he's pulling out of the driveway on the off chance he "might" speed.

As I stated before, your solution will only make sense without the current food stamps and other subsidies being passed out like candies to the illegals. But also as stated before, that ain't gonna happen is it?

Originally Posted by Goatboy

I do take it with a grain of salt, otherwise I'd slander to the extreme anyone who actually advocates such a bloodthirsty policy. I'm might be apt (or at least I try to convince myself) of posts that say "kill the Mexican" as an emotional reaction. Maybe you're an expert in reading between the lines/posts but I think words do speak loudly. In any case, to say such things as that and not mean it is a lazy form of debate -- and any politician, no matter how insignificant, would be crucified in the media with such statements -- similar to saying that one approves of the burning of crosses in front of black churches.

Apparantly you didn't take it with a grain of salt or you wouldn't be so upset about it. I'm no expert but to take an obvious (admittedly in bad taste) joke and making a big deal out of it is also, in my opinion, a lazy form of debate.

Originally Posted by Goatboy

Separated from their mommies and daddies? I don't care what the sob story is, the migrant worker can go home anytime to be with his kids. As for your comment on the "livered do gooders" I don't care what they say either, and why should I? I'm talking about a guest worker program policy. The ACLU can bring up whatever it wants, but permanent asylum isn't in the cards in my opinion. Anyway, what would the ACLU complain of? The family in Mexico that can't see daddy cuz he's in America picking lettuce? No problem, he goes back to Mexico. SIMPLE. Once again, I don't care about some hypothetical "whining" from the court system. I'm assuming this worker plan I've highlighted is policy. It's very precise, and concise as well.

I'm talking about guest workers that have babies in this country. The baby would be an american citizen under our law and no one can make him/her leave. Do you honestly think the babies will be forced to leave with their parents when their work permit expires? More likely what will happen is the parent will be allowed to stay. That's the Holy Grail of illegals. To have a baby in america. If they do that, they will have won the citizenship lottery.

Just because you spelled out your ficticious policy will not make it so. Your policy as you stated will simply NOT happen for numerous reasons.
Most plans or ideas start out good until the peripheral idiots get involved.

Originally Posted by Goatboy

Hmm, I've worked with a number of Mexicans in the US, I see plenty of Mexican nationals working in the US, and I see plenty of undocumented workers from Mexico as well. I live in Los Angeles, so I know something about this issue. What do you mean that the US doesn't have a guest worker program? The US has a huge guest worker program. Are you serious? Or are you referring to something more specific? And the American economy's performance is based on much more than "guest workers", it has something to do with laissez faire economics, population growth, more limited government restriction of private industry, or even simply cyclical trends.

I mean it doesn't have a guest workers program on the scale you're proposing we implement. I live in the San Fernando Valley and usually travel to Oxnard and Bakersfield twice, three times a week (all those beautiful farmland) and I see plenty of Mexican Nationals and undocumented workers myself so I guess I know just as much about the issue as you do. Do you know the problem we have of "visitors" just melting into society when their visas expire?

Dude, I'm not AGAINST a Guest Workers Permit per se.

I just think the way the law is set up right now, we'd be fools to implement it without first getting rid of/fixing the subsidies that make it so easy for illegals to stay here.

And you still have not made a valid argument as to why your policy will stem the flow of illegal immgration.

Originally Posted by Goatboy

I think NAFTA, and the free market, including the free movement of labor across borders is a gigantic boon. I don't want to debate on whether the US economy is more efficient with say: tariffs, import duties, subsidy, etc etc, because then the debate degenerates into a different field of study -- namely economics, ... well and other stuff too i guess.

You're right. Talking about NAFTA..etc, will degenerate into different fields of study so I won't comment on it.

**YellowFever** · 15 Oct 06,, 08:20

And by the way, why do you think Mexico is so hell bent on trying to implement this Guest Workers Program?

Do you think they're doing it so some of their poor countrymen will lead a productive and prosperous life in the US?

I don't think so.

They're doing it because they know most of them will be sending money back home to help Mexico's economy.

**Goatboy** · 15 Oct 06,, 08:29

San Fernando Valley eh? lol cool. No really, I hadn't realized you were a local

I'm in Santa Monica.

Both of us can go on and on about this topic as I'm sure we both agree. I'd like to, and perhaps I can refute your latest posting with what I consider to be reasoned fact, and you will do likewise, but I think I heard the jist of your argument. Time for the goat to crash lol, seeing a friend run in the Long Beach 5k tomorrow at 8am. Night bro.

**YellowFever** · 15 Oct 06,, 08:39

Niters, Dude.

We'll pick it up some other time..LoL

**Bill** · 15 Oct 06,, 16:08

Originally Posted by GSpot

Obviously not. Due to immigration reforms (or lack thereof, however you want to approach it), American produce farmers were left with a lack of fruit pickers this past season. As a result, bumper crop of fresh produce = unpicked trash.

They simply need to relocate the American welfare recipient veggie/fruit pickers where needed.

Those costs can be borne by the fruit growers themselves, like any other company pays for the relocation of it's employees.

There are plenty of unemployed americans with little to no education that are quite capable of fruit-picking.

**astralis** · 15 Oct 06,, 17:33

m21,

to be sure there are. but why don't we see americans out there doing so? (this is actually a question and not me being rhetorical here.) by the laws of economics they should be competing against the mexican fruit-pickers, and whomever can do it for cheaper on the sly would get hired. for that matter we should see the same thing outside the local convenience/hardware store (home depot, for example), where we should see a lot more of those americans waiting outside on a saturday morning looking for a quick temp job and some cash.

after all, those mexicans are running across the border (not a particularly easy task) to pick that fruit, or to move that sofa.

**YellowFever** · 16 Oct 06,, 05:48

IMHO, if you get rid of the welfare system, you'd see those americans rushing to the farmlands and the home Depots to make the extra cash.

Also,IMHO, what the welfare system did was to create two problems:

1) An influx of illeagls doing the "dirty" work that supposedly, americans won't do (which is BS. How did it get done before there were that many illegals here?).

and,

2) A whole class of americans that does nothing but sit on their collective asses and collect checks from uncle sam and whine that it's not enough to support them.

**Bill** · 16 Oct 06,, 06:27

Originally Posted by Goatboy

Yes $12 per hour was too high, i was just trying to make a point however that nobody in the ghetto is going to commute to a farm to pick cabbage for minimum wage. Seen many African Americans working the fields lately? It will be more expensive for consumers if we're forced to use indigenous labor.

Yes i have seen quite a few There are no doubt large numbers of black farm/ranch hands across the US, most especially in the South and NE(yes, we have farms here too, even in Philly!).

**Bill** · 16 Oct 06,, 06:29

Originally Posted by astralis

m21,

to be sure there are. but why don't we see americans out there doing so? (this is actually a question and not me being rhetorical here.) by the laws of economics they should be competing against the mexican fruit-pickers, and whomever can do it for cheaper on the sly would get hired. for that matter we should see the same thing outside the local convenience/hardware store (home depot, for example), where we should see a lot more of those americans waiting outside on a saturday morning looking for a quick temp job and some cash.

after all, those mexicans are running across the border (not a particularly easy task) to pick that fruit, or to move that sofa.

There are a lot of black fruitpickers(no idea how many, but i've seen plenty over the years out in Oklahoma and the midwest, and even here in Pa and Jersey ive seen more than a few, hell, we have VERY FEW illegal mexicans here compared to other places). And there are probably also low income asian fruit pickers too. Certainly enough of them with fruit stands, that's for sure.

Anyway, they are just good hard working people that dont raise a fuss, so you hear nothing of them. That's my take on it.